DrJockitch Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, fanofvan said: Benning's version of a retool was atrocious and I wouldn't even classify it as such. If Allvin was able to rid the Canucks of two of the contracts between OEL, Myers, and Boeser then I think the team could be turned around very, very quickly by way of a defence rebuild. Look at players like Graves, Severson, Gavrikov, Livingstone, etc. Hughes - Severson Graves/Gavrikov - Hronek Bear/OEL/Myers (whoever cant be traded) - Livingstone Wolanin/Brisebois/Dermott I really see little difference other than slightly improved competence in pro scouting. JR/PA have put us in even worse cap position. ‘They continue to bleed high draft pics for quick fixes. We are probably going to have to retain and possibly also further deplete draft capital/prospect pool to move Boesser which again doesn’t get us anywhere. ‘Today our D looks slightly better but our cap situation is worse we still don’t have a second or third line centre we certainly don’t have cap flexibility to bid on UFA D’s and that would just be more of the Benning plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 6 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: We don't have enough assets to properly rebuild without trading Petey, Hughes and Demko. Those 3 players would give us all the draft capital we need to properly rebuild this team. If we keep them all then we are trading guys like Boeser and Garland for scraps. We got a 1st and prospect for BO, maybe we get the same for Miller, but that would certainly never be enough to do a full rebuild. I disagree. I think the 1st from Bo and futures we could have received last deadline from Miller would have been a good start. Then we could have continued selling players whenever possible, and weaponizing our cap space for more assets. It's clearly not going to happen though. We'll be stuck making short sighted decisions, wasting draft picks on players that won't lead us to the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 24 minutes ago, fanofvan said: Sure, if the team should be in full tear down mode they should go scorched earth rebuild and maximize the return for Pettersson, Hughes, and Demko and then spend the next 4-6 years developing. Is there a guarantee any of the prospects/picks acquired in those deals pan out or turn the team into a championship team? No but you'd have your full rebuild. I'm not sure it was @stawns but there was a poster that did some research suggesting that full draft pick rebuilds are not the recipe for success. I referenced The Hockey Guy's segment on it. I'm not normally a big fan of his, but he did a decently deep dive on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, Master Mind said: I disagree. I think the 1st from Bo and futures we could have received last deadline from Miller would have been a good start. Then we could have continued selling players whenever possible, and weaponizing our cap space for more assets. It's clearly not going to happen though. We'll be stuck making short sighted decisions, wasting draft picks on players that won't lead us to the playoffs. 2 1sts, Raty, Lundkvist and Chytil is not enough to do a proper rebuild. What other players are we selling? Boeser, Garland, Myers, Beauvillier? You aren't even getting 1st round pick for those guys. You are getting scraps. The only other player we could have gotten a 1st for was Kuzmenko as well. So, you have to add him to the other 3 players. You can't properly rebuild this team unless you trade Petey, Hughes, Demko and Kuzmenko. They would give us all the draft capital and prospects needed for a full rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 I'm assuming this trade happened because Hall is on LTIR? I was wondering how they got the cap space to do it. Boston even has more room now to add another player. I guess Hall is on LTIR until the playoffs, which is a joke. I'm sure he will be fully healthy before that. Kucherov 2.0 all over again. This league is a joke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said: 2 1sts, Raty, Lundkvist and Chytil is not enough to do a proper rebuild. What other players are we selling? Boeser, Garland, Myers, Beauvillier? You aren't even getting 1st round pick for those guys. You are getting scraps. The only other player we could have gotten a 1st for was Kuzmenko as well. So, you have to add him to the other 3 players. You can't properly rebuild this team unless you trade Petey, Hughes, Demko and Kuzmenko. They would give us all the draft capital and prospects needed for a full rebuild. Lundkvist fetched another 1st, Chytil likely could as well. That's a lot of 1sts we could have had in short order. At the very least, we'd have more assets to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanofvan Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 17 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: I really see little difference other than slightly improved competence in pro scouting. JR/PA have put us in even worse cap position. ‘They continue to bleed high draft pics for quick fixes. We are probably going to have to retain and possibly also further deplete draft capital/prospect pool to move Boesser which again doesn’t get us anywhere. ‘Today our D looks slightly better but our cap situation is worse we still don’t have a second or third line centre we certainly don’t have cap flexibility to bid on UFA D’s and that would just be more of the Benning plan. Continue to bleed high draft picks? The only "high" pick that upset me was the 2nd they included to get rid of Dickinson. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 4 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Lundkvist fetched another 1st, Chytil likely could as well. That's a lot of 1sts we could have had in short order. At the very least, we'd have more assets to work with. Late first round picks aren't going to help you that much unless you have alot of them. The only way to get another Petey and Hughes is to tank and collect top 5 picks. You need at least two of them. We wouldn't be able to tank properly with Petey, Hughes and Demko in the lineup. This is what you are not understanding. The team needs to be really bad for 2-3 years to properly tank. And then you need the luck of the lottery and the draft to get those star players. The Rangers got the 1st and 2nd overall picks and those 2 players are 3rd liners. Edmonton drafted guys at #1 overall that are no longer in the league. It's real easy for fans to say, hey let's just tank and rebuild, but it's alot harder to actually properly execute it. And if it doesn't work out then you are screwed for a decade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, fanofvan said: Continue to bleed high draft picks? The only "high" pick that upset me was the 2nd they included to get rid of Dickinson. We just gave up another second and a first. We have made the 3rd least number selections in the first two rounds of any team over the last decade. The other 2 are Boston and TB. During the period of a retool we are allergic to high pics. Where is all of our success coming from now, EP, QH and Demko. Where were they drafted? What have we been getting rid of? We don’t want to build the core to championship level we just want to get back into the playoffs as quick as possible and hope bubble Demko shows up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said: Late first round picks aren't going to help you that much unless you have alot of them. The only way to get another Petey and Hughes is to tank and collect top 5 picks. You need at least two of them. We wouldn't be able to tank properly with Petey, Hughes and Demko in the lineup. This is what you are not understanding. The team needs to be really bad for 2-3 years to properly tank. And then you need the luck of the lottery and the draft to get those star players. The Rangers got the 1st and 2nd overall picks and those 2 players are 3rd liners. Edmonton drafted guys at #1 overall that are no longer in the league. It's real easy for fans to say, hey let's just tank and rebuild, but it's alot harder to actually properly execute it. And if it doesn't work out then you are screwed for a decade... We have been screwed for a decade with no McDavid in sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Just now, DrJockitch said: We have been screwed for a decade with no McDavid in sight. There is another Connor available in 4 months. In order to get him however, you have to be really bad. The only way for us to be really bad is to trade Petey, Hughes and Demko. We can't be the worst team in the league with those 3 in the lineup. People are upset that we can't properly tank, but don't seem to understand that it's not possible unless you take those 3 out of the lineup. When Edmonton got McDavid, they didn't already have a superstar or two in their lineup. That is how they were able to properly tank. And they needed several cracks at it before they ended up with McDavid. They had to draft Yakupov and RNH before they could draft McDavid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: We just gave up another second and a first. We have made the 3rd least number selections in the first two rounds of any team over the last decade. The other 2 are Boston and TB. During the period of a retool we are allergic to high pics. Where is all of our success coming from now, EP, QH and Demko. Where were they drafted? What have we been getting rid of? We don’t want to build the core to championship level we just want to get back into the playoffs as quick as possible and hope bubble Demko shows up. This is what happens when you have a scout GM like Benning and now Allvin. I think their ego allows them to believe that they can find just as good of players in the 3rd-5th round. So they’re willing to throw away seconds because they know they’re great currency for getting deals done. Problem is this is the type of player you get with those picks: Tryamkin, Brisebois, Gaudette, Forsling, Lockwood, DiPietro, Rathbone Not nearly the type of talent you find in the 2nd round (especially the first half) Allvin needed to play hardball with our 2nd. That Isles pick was valuable enough to not have to throw in a high 2nd. I would have liked to see them throw in a prospect or even another years 2nd instead. That 2nd potentially represents a cheap young forward or D man that could come in and make a difference right about the time this team is looking to contend. You need those players. Edited March 2, 2023 by DeNiro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Late first round picks aren't going to help you that much unless you have alot of them. The only way to get another Petey and Hughes is to tank and collect top 5 picks. You need at least two of them. We wouldn't be able to tank properly with Petey, Hughes and Demko in the lineup. This is what you are not understanding. The team needs to be really bad for 2-3 years to properly tank. And then you need the luck of the lottery and the draft to get those star players. The Rangers got the 1st and 2nd overall picks and those 2 players are 3rd liners. Edmonton drafted guys at #1 overall that are no longer in the league. It's real easy for fans to say, hey let's just tank and rebuild, but it's alot harder to actually properly execute it. And if it doesn't work out then you are screwed for a decade... Our team is already really bad WITH those players. We'd surely be even lower if we didn't have Bo, Miller, etc for the entire year. Seems like a couple more top 5 finishes could have been very doable, then in a couple years those players become part of the core with Petey/Hughes/Demko. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losing With Pride Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 3 hours ago, timberz21 said: And the Red Wings have missed how many times the playoffs lately? Oh yeah, 6 going on 7. I guess that's how it's done... Obviously if you're rebuilding you're going to miss the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) So this isnt the Bertuzzi trade thread anymore eh? Edited March 2, 2023 by Sharpshooter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: There is another Connor available in 4 months. In order to get him however, you have to be really bad. The only way for us to be really bad is to trade Petey, Hughes and Demko. We can't be the worst team in the league with those 3 in the lineup. People are upset that we can't properly tank, but don't seem to understand that it's not possible unless you take those 3 out of the lineup. When Edmonton got McDavid, they didn't already have a superstar or two in their lineup. That is how they were able to properly tank. And they needed several cracks at it before they ended up with McDavid. They had to draft Yakupov and RNH before they could draft McDavid. They had multiple number 1 overall pics in their lineup when they drafted McDavid but again Edmonton is not an example of a team that was purposefully rebuilt. They just had incompetent management and luck. We never have had the luck part of that. We are doing everything we can to move away from Bedard and the top of this draft. We are making moves that will make us better in the short run but not really very good and certainly not creating a path to championship calibre. In fact we are doing the best we can to move away from a path to being a true contender and just going for the anything can happen on the playoffs plan. We haven’t even started the process of buying our way out of our bad contracts, that is going to be expensive and deplete the system further. But hey if you are a team that if everything goes right may be able to slide into a wild card spot, why would you want quality youth coming into the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losing With Pride Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 12 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: There is another Connor available in 4 months. In order to get him however, you have to be really bad. The only way for us to be really bad is to trade Petey, Hughes and Demko. We can't be the worst team in the league with those 3 in the lineup. People are upset that we can't properly tank, but don't seem to understand that it's not possible unless you take those 3 out of the lineup. When Edmonton got McDavid, they didn't already have a superstar or two in their lineup. That is how they were able to properly tank. And they needed several cracks at it before they ended up with McDavid. They had to draft Yakupov and RNH before they could draft McDavid. I disagree, Look at Anaheim - Zegras, McTavish, Fowler, Klingberg, Gibson and they're almost at the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 11 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Our team is already really bad WITH those players. We'd surely be even lower if we didn't have Bo, Miller, etc for the entire year. Seems like a couple more top 5 finishes could have been very doable, then in a couple years those players become part of the core with Petey/Hughes/Demko. Demko was out for 3 months and we still won games without him. Now people are upset that he is back and is screwing the tank. We are also winning games without BO and we won against Dallas without Miller. The only way we could ever be the worst team in the league is to trade Petey, Hughes and Demko. When you have 3 star players in your lineup you will always be able to win games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: They had multiple number 1 overall pics in their lineup when they drafted McDavid but again Edmonton is not an example of a team that was purposefully rebuilt. They just had incompetent management and luck. We never have had the luck part of that. We are doing everything we can to move away from Bedard and the top of this draft. We are making moves that will make us better in the short run but not really very good and certainly not creating a path to championship calibre. In fact we are doing the best we can to move away from a path to being a true contender and just going for the anything can happen on the playoffs plan. We haven’t even started the process of buying our way out of our bad contracts, that is going to be expensive and deplete the system further. But hey if you are a team that if everything goes right may be able to slide into a wild card spot, why would you want quality youth coming into the team. This is false. We traded our leading scorer, our #1 goalie was injured for 3 months, we shut down Mikheyev. We have like 4 AHL defencemen in the lineup right now plus some AHL forwards. And we are still able to win games. Why? Because of Petey and Hughes. Prime example is Beau. He is doing just as well as BO because he is playing with Petey. So, trading BO didn't actually make us worse because the new Beau is doing just as well. Unless you take Petey and Hughes out of the lineup we will always have a chance to win games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Demko was out for 3 months and we still won games without him. Now people are upset that he is back and is screwing the tank. We are also winning games without BO and we won against Dallas without Miller. The only way we could ever be the worst team in the league is to trade Petey, Hughes and Demko. When you have 3 star players in your lineup you will always be able to win games... We would still win some games of course. But if we're already bad enough to be 6th last, we'd be bad enough to acquire a couple top 10 and probably top 5 picks while keeping the big 3 together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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