coho8888 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 1 minute ago, Gawdzukes said: Don't shoot the messenger. We're up against the cap and still pushing in all our chips, like with Miller. I don't personally like or agree with the move but that doesn't really matter. What does is we're up against the cap, with no signs of slowing down, with a crap team is my point. Every year I look at the team we're missing pieces all through the line-up. Until we can learn to control our own spending I don't agree with that approach. Again, there are moves yet to be made. You are just jumping the gun here. I don't mind spending as long as it fits in with our plan and we get value. Myers will be gone. One or two of Garland/AB/Boeser. as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 1 hour ago, BCNate said: Again, I have no interest in trying to make PA's moves parallel to Bennings, that makes no sense. -I'm not a Boeser fan at all, I think he makes far too much money for a complimentary piece. That was a bad move that will be tough to undo. -I get what they were trying to do with the Dickinson deal, but the cost was too high. They did their best to fix, but that whole trade mess was a net loss. -I think BB was done a little wrong, he deserved to leave in a better fashion. Those 3 moves aside, I really like the moves this management team has done in a little over a year. I get that this is against the popular vote on CDC, but I genuinely believe this team will be very competitive in 2024-5, with a vastly improved prospect pool. I agree, I think we will be competitive next year if Demko stays healthy. ‘What I am saying is the rush to get competitive next year is going to severely limit the peak level that this group can get to. Had they had more patience they could have built a championship calibre team but this rush is going to severely limit the amplitude of their peak. We will be left with the same plan Toronto used through all the 80s and 90s. Team that is competitive to make the playoffs but not to compete for the cup unless goalie goes on other worldly heater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Just now, coho8888 said: Again, there are moves yet to be made. You are just jumping the gun here. I don't mind spending as long as it fits in with our plan and we get value. Myers will be gone. One or two of Garland/AB/Boeser. as well. No, I'm not jumping the gun at all. I'm going on the past 7 or 8 years of being cash strapped and not very good. If they can do it, which I concede is theoretically possible, great! I'm just going to be concerned the entire time because of our past history, and the recent history of this management group. Hopefully they can but I see the same people who have predicted how easy it would be in the past predicting the same again. At this point, I'll believe it when I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coho8888 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 1 minute ago, Gawdzukes said: No, I'm not jumping the gun at all. I'm going on the past 7 or 8 years of being cash strapped and not very good. If they can do it, which I concede is theoretically possible, great! I'm just going to be concerned the entire time because of our past history, and the recent history of this management group. Hopefully they can but I see the same people who have predicted how easy it would be in the past predicting the same again. At this point, I'll believe it when I see it. They've only had a year which is not enough to fix all our problems. You cannot look at what they've done and extrapolate that to what they will do the next few years. This group is not like Benning's group. Benning would have traded our 1st to get a temporary Starting goaltender after Demko went down with his injury just to try and make the playoffs 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 1 hour ago, DrJockitch said: Great. Good to hear. Never once did I mention age or age gaps. The timing of the deal was what I said was the problem not the deal itself or even Hronek. Yzerman hasn’t been GM of TB for some time. And he had Vasilevsky, Kucherov, Hedman and Stamkos not to mention the other top flight players that they built up. We don’t have that core, we have the starting of a good core but our trading away high pics has made it hard to build around them. I’ve tried this question with a few other posters but none has answered yet. Wich player would you have picked with the Isles pick. Then we can see in two years if that was good enough. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 1 minute ago, coho8888 said: They've only had a year which is not enough to fix all our problems. You cannot look at what they've done and extrapolate that to what they will do the next few years. This group is not like Benning's group. Benning would have traded our 1st to get a temporary Starting goaltender after Demko went down with his injury just to try and make the playoffs But I can use what I've learned in past experience to be worried as someone who cares about the outcome just like I would with any other avenue of life. I'm sorry man, when I see warning signs I take notice, not just pretend everything will be fine. If these guys get it right while pushing madly ahead I will be less hesitant to worry about in the future. Does that not sound reasonable to you? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Just now, Gawdzukes said: But I can use what I've learned in past experience to be worried as someone who cares about the outcome just like I would with any other avenue of life. I'm sorry man, when I see warning signs I take notice, not just pretend everything will be fine. If these guys get it right while pushing madly ahead I will be less hesitant to worry about in the future. Does that not sound reasonable to you? Maybe your concerns are with the owner, and his insisted upon continued build direction? Benning failed at that. But he did leave a good young core. The new group added Kuz and (recently) Hronek. They are actively trying to rebuild the supporting cast. Still work to do there, which will take more time. But we could see big changes in the supporting cast this summer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, Timråfan said: I’ve tried this question with a few other posters but none has answered yet. Wich player would you have picked with the Isles pick. Then we can see in two years if that was good enough. I am not even saying I would use the Isles pick. I would have kept it, traded JTM for the 2 firsts and cap space that Pitts was rumoured to have offered. Those pics are assets as is the cap space. That would have given us cap room and ultimate flexibility as well as 4 first round pics in 2 years and our second to work with to restructure team in offseason. May have even made the same Hronek deal then but would have had a larger selection of teams to work with. Now we are trying to fill a bunch of holes still but on our back foot from a poor negotiating position instead of being in a good negotiating position flush with cap space and assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coho8888 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: But I can use what I've learned in past experience to be worried as someone who cares about the outcome just like I would with any other avenue of life. I'm sorry man, when I see warning signs I take notice, not just pretend everything will be fine. If these guys get it right while pushing madly ahead I will be less hesitant to worry about in the future. Does that not sound reasonable to you? I've followed this team for almost 50 years ever since I was a kid playing street hockey in my neighborhood. If anyone would be skeptical, it would be me. Who knows? you may be right and this is might turn out to be JB 2.0. But I've seen enough good moves from this management team to give me some hope. They have no choice but to clear cap. Lets hope that by doing so, it won't cost us a chunk of our future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EP Phone Home Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: I agree, I think we will be competitive next year if Demko stays healthy. ‘What I am saying is the rush to get competitive next year is going to severely limit the peak level that this group can get to. Had they had more patience they could have built a championship calibre team but this rush is going to severely limit the amplitude of their peak. We will be left with the same plan Toronto used through all the 80s and 90s. Team that is competitive to make the playoffs but not to compete for the cup unless goalie goes on other worldly heater. People don’t want to accept the reality of the team’s situation and would rather hold onto hope and believe that the club (baring no key injuries to Hughes/Demko/Petey) will be a contender. Yourself, myself and others speak the truth of what is happening but are considered “not real fans” or “downers” when we have evidence of the last 10 years that chasing a cup is not the way to go. Hard for some to admit that having two super stars are great, but we are wasting their talent by not having a bigger talent pool and depth chart on the roster and on the farm. It takes 5-8 core pieces to be a contender. We have 3 for sure pieces. We will see if Kuz and Podz can be two more. We need at least two more on D with Quinn and Filip (OEL is NOT a core D piece) even though he is paid as one. I have accepted that ownership wants to be cap crunched at all times because he wants to sell his product as a playoff team and it’s his team. I just refuse to believe you can buy a cup, while not having the patience/long term planning to build a winner. Edited March 7, 2023 by EP Phone Home 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EP Phone Home Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 11 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: But I can use what I've learned in past experience to be worried as someone who cares about the outcome just like I would with any other avenue of life. I'm sorry man, when I see warning signs I take notice, not just pretend everything will be fine. If these guys get it right while pushing madly ahead I will be less hesitant to worry about in the future. Does that not sound reasonable to you? Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. Learn from your mistakes. Your concern is warranted. As we go for take-two of retool on the fly. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 17 minutes ago, coho8888 said: They've only had a year which is not enough to fix all our problems. You cannot look at what they've done and extrapolate that to what they will do the next few years. This group is not like Benning's group. Benning would have traded our 1st to get a temporary Starting goaltender after Demko went down with his injury just to try and make the playoffs Allvin just traded a possibility unprotected 1st round pick from a non playoff team plus a 2nd for a second pairing RHD who needs a new contract and we will have to pay full market rate for in a season just like he was a UFA. I don’t see a big difference… 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnAntoski Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: I agree, I think we will be competitive next year if Demko stays healthy. ‘What I am saying is the rush to get competitive next year is going to severely limit the peak level that this group can get to. Had they had more patience they could have built a championship calibre team but this rush is going to severely limit the amplitude of their peak. We will be left with the same plan Toronto used through all the 80s and 90s. Team that is competitive to make the playoffs but not to compete for the cup unless goalie goes on other worldly heater. Good points but the FO, are also worried about their extensions and a WC spot will do alot to appease Francesco. Hence, the rush to chase next year, that resulted in overpaying for Hronek Edited March 7, 2023 by ShawnAntoski 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnAntoski Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, EP Phone Home said: Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. Learn from your mistakes. Your concern is warranted. As we go for take-two of retool on the fly. Canucks one of the ever retooling losers. Guess, it sounds better than the ever rebuilding losers, that atleast can show their fans a top 3/5 pick before they decide to move on. Edited March 7, 2023 by ShawnAntoski 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: I am not even saying I would use the Isles pick. I would have kept it, traded JTM for the 2 firsts and cap space that Pitts was rumoured to have offered. Those pics are assets as is the cap space. That would have given us cap room and ultimate flexibility as well as 4 first round pics in 2 years and our second to work with to restructure team in offseason. May have even made the same Hronek deal then but would have had a larger selection of teams to work with. Now we are trying to fill a bunch of holes still but on our back foot from a poor negotiating position instead of being in a good negotiating position flush with cap space and assets. It was two draft picks last I heard, no one confirmed they were firsts. In your scenario, our center depth would be Pettersson, Aman, Dries. We’d be paying another inflated $6M deal for a UFA defenseman (instead of Hronek’s $4.4M) and then trying to replace JTM at 2C with another inflated UFA deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pure961089 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Say what you will about JT, maybe he hasn’t put up the points like he did last year, and maybe he’s a coach killer. But when he’s on his game he bring an element of toughness this team just doesn’t have a lot of. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jyu Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 I like that we are playing well defensively. Another game allowing less than four goals… But please, do not run demko into the ground by over working him in meaningless games. Get Martin or Delia up here and share the remaining games equally with demko. Give demko just enough games to reacclimate himself and put martin back in net to see if this new found defense is for real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Just now, Kenny Powers said: It was two draft picks last I heard, no one confirmed they were firsts. In your scenario, our center depth would be Pettersson, Aman, Dries. We’d be paying another inflated $6M deal for a UFA defenseman (instead of Hronek’s $4.4M) and then trying to replace JTM at 2C with another inflated UFA deal. Again assets can be used in trades but this time from better negotiating position. We still need a second line centre. JTM is not a centre on a contending team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnAntoski Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, jyu said: I like that we are playing well defensively. Another game allowing less than four goals… But please, do not run demko into the ground by over working him in meaningless games. Get Martin or Delia up here and share the remaining games equally with demko. Give demko just enough games to reacclimate himself and put martin back in net to see if this new found defense is for real. Quality of opponent matters but I get it cause getting the (meaningless) wins, just feels good and a good distraction Edited March 7, 2023 by ShawnAntoski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 1 minute ago, DrJockitch said: Again assets can be used in trades but this time from better negotiating position. We still need a second line centre. JTM is not a centre on a contending team. Petey is an awesome number one centre. JTM is absolutely a good enough player to be a #2C on a contender. We are missing a #3C. Preferably a 200 foot guy who is right shot. Aman looks like he fills the 4c nicely. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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