The Wayne Gretzky Discussion Thread

[Elias Pettersson]

46 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Just for fun.  Because this is a Gretzky thread.  He won 9 Hart trophies his first ten years, the one he didn't win Mario won,  but it was also an injury plagued season for Gretzky.   He won the following year.  8 years in a row is a record that likely never is broken, yet it's not even seen as one of his records that are impossible to beat.    Mario won 3.  

 

Art Ross.  He won ten.  Average points?  195.5.  Yikes!    McDavid.  Anyone?  Mario!  Nope.  (Edit: he also should have co-owned one his rookie year..at 18 he was denied the Calder because of the WHA stuff .. tied Dionne, a couple less goals .. but won a Hart anyways.   Who else has won a Hart at 18?!    ... if he was given that Art Ross, because less games, or at least co-owned it, would lower his average, but bring it up to 11... how many do we think McDavid will win?  5-7 maybe.)

 

 

50 goals in 38 games.    Good luck!   Try doing that at age 20... good grief that was Gretzky though.     Makes hyperbole seem silly.   Alien.  Probably. 

 

163 assists in 85-86.   Mario was second in scoring with 141 points.    So he had 22 more assists plus could score 50 plus goals (plus 71 lol)  ... then the second highest scorer.    And he didn't feast on the power play.   Was also a PKer....

 

 

 

Gretzky had 50 hat tricks in his career.  Bossy had 39.  Ovechkin only has 30...

[IBatch]

18 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Gretzky had 50 hat tricks in his career.  Bossy had 39.  Ovechkin only has 30...

Ovi has longevity, durability Dave Anderchyuk, Gartner plus going for him.   Gretzky retired with exactly one more pro combined goals as Howe playoffs/WHA combined.   Ovi breaks that record, he can have the mantle as the greatest goal scorer ever.  Phil Esposito a couple years ago, said it best.  "Gretzky is the best goal scorer ever, until someone breaks his record he's the best ". 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

39 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The hockey guy pointed out that Wayne Gretzky scored his first 1000 points in only 426 games, which is the all-time record for fastest to 1000.  But then he points out that Gretzky scored his 2nd 1000 points in 433 games, which is the 2nd fastest of all time, only 2nd to Gretzky himself.  That is pretty unbelievable if you think about it.  Gretzky's 2nd 1000 points, from 1000 to 2000 is still the fastest to 1000 points in the history of the NHL if you eliminate Gretzky's first 1000 points from the conversation.

 

Another thing he mentioned was that Gretzky led the league in assists when he played for the Rangers, which was in the late 1990's when Gretzky was 36 years old.  He had 72 assists and 97 points at 36 years old in 1997.  He finished 4th in scoring that year, more points than a 24 year old Jagr, 25 year old Sundin, 23 year old Forsberg.  In 1998, the year before he retired and at 37 years old, he had 90 points, which again was 4th in the entire NHL, only one point behind second place Forsberg and only 12 points behind Jagr who won the scoring title.  So, at 37 years old, he was still one of the best players in the entire NHL...

This is one of my pet peeve's about "era adjusted" stats.   If the guys in their mid 30's, are outproducing kids that have barely any playoff games or any games in them yet but are the future stars ... what the heck is wrong with just comparing eras with stars in their 30's against the next crop?   Sure seems easy to me.   How good was Iginla, Lidstrom, St. Louis, Alfie, Sundin, Sakic, Kariya, Bure, Federov, Selanne, Mogilny, etc etc etc against Mario, Yzerman and Gretzky?  Or go back again, and how good was Gretzky against his own peers, plus guys like Dionne, Bossy, Potvin, Robinson, Lafluer etc etc ...Bobby Clark.   Statsny.  Hawerchuk.   Lafontaine.  Hull.  Messier.   A long list.   Gretzky was twice as good as guys that were just as good as the next crop!   So.  Yikes.   Joe New.  Shanny.   Lesser guys like Propp, Corson, Roberts.  Linden.   A long long list. 

 

It's not that hard.   We can do that now with Ovi, Kane, Malkin and Crosby and others.   

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Ovi had longevity, durability Dave Anderchyuk, Gartner plus going for him.   Gretzky retired with exactly one more pro combined goals as Howe playoffs/WHA combined.   Ovi breaks that record, he can have the mantle as the greatest goal scorer ever.  Phil Esposito a couple years ago, said it best.  "Gretzky is the best goal scorer ever, until someone breaks his record he's the best don't care what era it is".

 

I never considered Gretzky to be this great goal scorer.  I watched Mike Bossy and thought that guy was a pure sniper, the best the game has ever seen.  I never considered Gretzky to be in that category.  So, it's amazing to me that Gretzky has all of these goal scoring records, which shows how dominant he really was.  Also, Gretzky didn't score very many goals in his 30's.  He only broke 30 goals twice in his 30's, which is why Ovechkin can break his record.  If you can score 40-50 goals consistently into your late 30's then you have a shot at the record.  Bossy would have had a shot if he had played into his late 30's, Jagr too if he had stayed in the NHL.  

 

For someone who has almost 2900 points, 894 goals isn't really that much to be honest.  You would think he would have easily cracked 1000 goals with that many points.  Gretzky was a passer first and foremost, his ability to set up the play was untouched, almost non-human really.  Scoring all of those goals was simply a byproduct of being able to get open so easily with his zigging and zagging.  Nobody could touch Gretzky when he had the puck.  It was almost like the other players weren't even trying.  Gretzky could simply skate into the offensive zone and do whatever the heck he wanted to do.  It's like the other players almost feared him and really didn't even know how to stop him.  This is hard to explain unless you actually watched him play.  

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I never considered Gretzky to be this great goal scorer.  I watched Mike Bossy and thought that guy was a pure sniper, the best the game has ever seen.  I never considered Gretzky to be in that category.  So, it's amazing to me that Gretzky has all of these goal scoring records, which shows how dominant he really was.  Also, Gretzky didn't score very many goals in his 30's.  He only broke 30 goals twice in his 30's, which is why Ovechkin can break his record.  If you can score 40-50 goals consistently into your late 30's then you have a shot at the record.  Bossy would have had a shot if he had played into his late 30's, Jagr too if he had stayed in the NHL.  

 

For someone who has almost 2900 points, 894 goals isn't really that much to be honest.  You would think he would have easily cracked 1000 goals with that many points.  Gretzky was a passer first and foremost, his ability to set up the play was untouched, almost non-human really.  Scoring all of those goals was simply a byproduct of being able to get open so easily with his zigging and zagging.  Nobody could touch Gretzky when he had the puck.  It was almost like the other players weren't even trying.  Gretzky could simply skate into the offensive zone and do whatever the heck he wanted to do.  It's like the other players almost feared him and really didn't even know how to stop him.  This is hard to explain unless you actually watched him play.  

For sure he was feared.   And no he wasn't a goal scorer first at all.   Yet scored a ton of goals.   Playoff's and regular season.   For me anyways, when he suffered his shoulder and back injury, he decided to not shoot the puck as much (his shooting percentage is pretty whack - which also shows you that he wasn't trying to score, by "shooting it at the net", he shot to score - like Bossy)  ... some guys lead the league in scoring because they shoot the puck every time they can.   Gretzky was a great goal scorer ... but it for sure wasn't his primary goal.   The most dangerous guy in the play was the last guy coming into the zone which he created.     Guy was a genius hockey player.     Nobody will ever do what he did.   Bedard.  McDavid.   Eventually we will all die and his stats will just pop out like some era thing.   And be explained away.   So do appreciate this thread.    My only regret was not being old enough to see Orr play.   To me he's the only other guy that could possibly have challenged his greatness.   Because of my older friends that tell me stories about how he played.   But even they wouldn't put him ahead of Gretzky, just bring him up as someone who could have. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

One thing that's really funny ... is if you want to check out his records.   He's often also second.   So not only is he the record holder he's also second, or well 6-8th  as well. 

 

Assists records, single season.  1-7 WG, 8 Mario 

 

Most goals in a season:  WG 1 and 2.  

 

Most assists playoffs and regular season:  Mario is tied for 11th... rest are Wayne's.   It's actually kind of gaudy so won't go on.  

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

53 minutes ago, IBatch said:

One thing that's really funny ... is if you want to check out his records.   He's often also second.   So not only is he the record holder he's also second, or well 6-8th  as well. 

 

Assists records, single season.  1-7 WG, 8 Mario 

 

Most goals in a season:  WG 1 and 2.  

 

Most assists playoffs and regular season:  Mario is tied for 11th... rest are Wayne's.   It's actually kind of gaudy so won't go on.  

 

Most times peeing his pants in a professional hockey game and admitting it.  Wayne Gretzky holds the record with one.  Everyone else is tied for second at zero.

[shiznak]

3 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The hockey guy says Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time. So this kind of puts a mic drop on your entire argument…

 

 

Not really, because he even mentioned in the Lemieux video that his preference is Gretzky, on who is the greatest hockey player. But he understand why people would think it’s the other way around.
 

Again, people are confusing themselves with greatness and talented/skillful. They’re two entirely different things. You can be the most talented hockey player in the world, but you still need to put the work in to be great. 

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Not really, because he even mentioned in the Lemieux video that his preference is Gretzky, on who is the greatest hockey player. But he understand why people would think it’s the other way around.
 

Again, people are confusing themselves with greatness and talented/skillful. They’re two entirely different things. You can be the most talented hockey player in the world, but you still need to put the work in to be great. 

I agree.  I have no problem with your debate, and I encourage it.  That's what this thread is about.  You actually put some thought into it and came up with some reasons on why you feel Mario is better than Wayne.  And yes, I agree that I would totally understand why some people would put Mario ahead of Wayne.  Some people have Orr ahead of Wayne too.  Wayne himself says Gordie Howe is the greatest of all time.

 

At the end of the day, if you put all the evidence together, Wayne would always come out on top, but people could still make some valid arguments to have Mario, Orr or Gordie ahead of him.  I bet you in 10-15 years you will have some people putting McDavid ahead of him too.  

 

There are lots of talented players in the CHL and in college and in Europe that never even make the NHL or make it and are busts.  Look at some of the #1 overall picks in history.  Some are complete busts.  How does that happen?  How can a guy who is so dominant in junior be such a complete bust in the NHL?  Well, you said it in your post.  it's called work ethic.  Some players have all the talent in the world but zero work ethic.  Look at Vitali Kravtsov.  Guy is super talented.  But he's lazy with an attitude.  Which is why he can never make it in the NHL.  But he has more raw talent than Podkolzin.  Just one example of hundreds.  

 

Wayne and Mario were both talented and had great work ethic.  I think the difference and where the argument takes a different turn is what actually defines talent.  You seem to not be looking at Gretzky's 6th sense and vision as actual talent, you are only looking at the physical, which is why you put Mario ahead of him.  Mario was a physical specimen, similar to Lindros.  But Mario didn't have the 6th sense or vision that Wayne had.  Mario had to go through guys just like Lindros.  Wayne didn't have to do that.  He would outsmart them and make them look foolish.  That is a talent that nobody else ever had.  Brains is just as important in sports as raw physical talent.  Tom Brady is a perfect example of that...

[cripplereh]

If Suter wouldn't have hit him badly in the back he would have tore it up more.

 

Plus many times instead of scoring he would pass and let other teammates get the goal.Can't say that about everyone.

 

True sportsmanship was his way of life on and off the ice.

 

Yes greatest ever by far.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

7 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

If Suter wouldn't have hit him badly in the back he would have tore it up more.

 

Plus many times instead of scoring he would pass and let other teammates get the goal.Can't say that about everyone.

 

True sportsmanship was his way of life on and off the ice.

 

Yes greatest ever by far.

The closest player I can think of that had that kind of "aura" was Jean Beliveau.  You might boo him (as he WAS playing for a rival team) but you could never really hate him (imho).  I recall an old story Gordie Howe used to tell.  He gave Beliveau a good bodycheck one game & Gordie's mom wouldn't speak to him for over a month.

Edited August 14, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Kevin Biestra]

38 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

The closest player I can think of that had that kind of "aura" was Jean Beliveau.  You might boo him (as he WAS playing for a rival team) but you could never really hate him (imho).  I recall an old story Gordie Howe used to tell.  He gave Beliveau a good bodycheck one game & Gordie's mom wouldn't speak to him for over a month.

 

Those old guys had a kind of class that even Gretzky didn't really.  It was just a mark of that generation.  In Gordie Howe's book he includes some of the letters from when he was first courting his wife.  They were adults but it is like two grade seven kids exchanging letters over the summer before school begins again.  Gretzky and the boys were tearing it up in the Edmonton script clubs.

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Those old guys had a kind of class that even Gretzky didn't really.  It was just a mark of that generation.  In Gordie Howe's book he includes some of the letters from when he was first courting his wife.  They were adults but it is like two grade seven kids exchanging letters over the summer before school begins again.  Gretzky and the boys were tearing it up in the Edmonton script clubs.

After reading his book I was a little disappointed in him.   Took modesty (which followed him throughout his public speaking during his career) to a level where ... it was just damn.   Where is the "yes I was really, really good".   Coffey has this.  Other great (and some not even close to great) players occasionally toot their own horn.   But he never did.    If he was there I bet he blushed. 

 

Edit:  The first crack in the armour for me was last year with those gambling crap.   Not sure why he'd lend his name to that.   But when he was playing, he was squeaky clean.   Maybe it's about image.   But i think he's just a very smart guy, from humble roots.   His Dad never quit his job.   Kept climbing poles to retirement age, when he surely didn't have too. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Those old guys had a kind of class that even Gretzky didn't really.  It was just a mark of that generation.  In Gordie Howe's book he includes some of the letters from when he was first courting his wife.  They were adults but it is like two grade seven kids exchanging letters over the summer before school begins again.  Gretzky and the boys were tearing it up in the Edmonton script clubs.

I went to a New Year's Eve party one year at the old Richard's on Richard's.  Probably the greatest nightclub in Vancouver history.  The Oilers were in town that night playing the Canucks in one of those New Year's Eve games.

 

Anyways, a bunch of them showed up at the club after the game.  I went upstairs to use the washroom and the urinals were full.  So, I went into one of the stalls.  I come out a few minutes later and what do you know, Wayne Gretzky was taking a piss in one of the urinals.  I could tell the back of his head from anyone.  He finished up and turned and I kind of looked at him.  Here was my idol taking a piss in the washroom.  What do I do?  Ask for an autograph?  I almost took my hand out to try and shake his, but I felt he probably should wash it first.  I ended up leaving the washroom as I was piss drunk and I never saw him again in the club.  

 

That was my moment with Wayne Gretzky...   

Edited August 15, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Kevin Biestra]

26 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I went to a New Year's Eve party one year at the old Richard's on Richard's.  Probably the greatest nightclub in Vancouver history.  The Oilers were in town that night playing the Canucks in one of those New Year's Eve games.

 

Anyways, a bunch of them showed up at the club after the game.  I went upstairs to use the washroom and the urinals were full.  So, I went into one of the stalls.  I come out a few minutes later and what do you know, Wayne Gretzky was taking a piss in one of the urinals.  I could tell the back of his head from anyone.  He finished up and turned and I kind of looked at him.  Here was my idol taking a piss in the washroom.  What do I do?  Ask for an autograph?  I almost took my hand out to try and shake his, but I felt he probably should wash it first.  I ended up leaving the washroom as I was piss drunk and I never saw him again in the club.  

 

That was my moment with Wayne Gretzky...   

 

They made a movie based on your meeting with Gretzky and their interpretation of events conflicts with yours.

 

 

[Canuckie8]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I agree.  I have no problem with your debate, and I encourage it.  That's what this thread is about.  You actually put some thought into it and came up with some reasons on why you feel Mario is better than Wayne.  And yes, I agree that I would totally understand why some people would put Mario ahead of Wayne.  Some people have Orr ahead of Wayne too.  Wayne himself says Gordie Howe is the greatest of all time.

 

At the end of the day, if you put all the evidence together, Wayne would always come out on top, but people could still make some valid arguments to have Mario, Orr or Gordie ahead of him.  I bet you in 10-15 years you will have some people putting McDavid ahead of him too.  

 

There are lots of talented players in the CHL and in college and in Europe that never even make the NHL or make it and are busts.  Look at some of the #1 overall picks in history.  Some are complete busts.  How does that happen?  How can a guy who is so dominant in junior be such a complete bust in the NHL?  Well, you said it in your post.  it's called work ethic.  Some players have all the talent in the world but zero work ethic.  Look at Vitali Kravtsov.  Guy is super talented.  But he's lazy with an attitude.  Which is why he can never make it in the NHL.  But he has more raw talent than Podkolzin.  Just one example of hundreds.  

 

Wayne and Mario were both talented and had great work ethic.  I think the difference and where the argument takes a different turn is what actually defines talent.  You seem to not be looking at Gretzky's 6th sense and vision as actual talent, you are only looking at the physical, which is why you put Mario ahead of him.  Mario was a physical specimen, similar to Lindros.  But Mario didn't have the 6th sense or vision that Wayne had.  Mario had to go through guys just like Lindros.  Wayne didn't have to do that.  He would outsmart them and make them look foolish.  That is a talent that nobody else ever had.  Brains is just as important in sports as raw physical talent.  Tom Brady is a perfect example of that...

Totally agree on the 6th sense he had.  Nobody can compare to Gretzky’s hockey IQ.  It is very much a skill, but much harder to see and explain its true impact on the ice.  I will say one on one Lemieux beats Gretzky everyday.  If I am building a TEAM I choose Gretzky over Lemieux, and it is not even close.  

[Wise Guy]

On 8/12/2023 at 2:44 PM, Elias Pettersson said:

 

1983–84: 100 goals, 87 regular season and 13 in the playoffs.

 

1984–85 : 255 points, 208 regular season and 47 in the playoffs.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Wise Guy said:

1983–84: 100 goals, 87 regular season and 13 in the playoffs.

 

1984–85 : 255 points, 208 regular season and 47 in the playoffs.

You forgot to add:  

 

83-84 plus 78, 12 shorties only 20 PP goals

84-85 plus 100 (huh!?) 11 shorties only 8 PP goals.   

 

So...wasn't padding stats on the PP, goals anyways.     Gretzky could also add some other seasons but think we get the idea. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by IBatch

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, IBatch said:

You forgot to add:  

 

83-84 plus 78, 12 shorties only 20 PP goals

84-85 plus 100 (huh!?) 11 shorties only 8 PP goals.   

 

So...wasn't padding stats on the PP, goals anyways.     Gretzky could also add some other seasons but think we get the idea. 

Most even strength points in NHL history in one season:

 

Wayne Gretzky - 147

Wayne Gretzky - 146

Wayne Gretzky - 143

Wayne Gretzky - 135

Wayne Gretzky - 132

Wayne Gretzky - 124

Wayne Gretzky - 104

Guy LaFleur - 104

Wayne Gretzky - 103

Mario Lemieux - 102

Steve Yzerman - 101

Jari Kurri - 101

Wayne Gretzky - 100

Wayne Gretzky - 100

Mike Bossy - 100

Phil Esposito - 99

Phil Esposito - 99

Wayne Gretzky - 96

Mario Lemieux - 96

Guy LaFleur - 96

Jaromir Jagr - 95

 

Most Even Strength Points NHL Season | StatMuse

 

This might be the most impressive statistic of them all.  Gretzky has the 7 top seasons for most even strength points in one NHL season and 11 of the top 21 of all time.  Just mind boggling really.

 

Also, those numbers show that unlike Gretzky, Mario Lemieux feasted on the power play, as he only had 2 seasons out of the top 21 of all time where he led the league in even strength points.

 

In 1981-82 Gretzky had 212 total points and 147 were even strength, a difference of 65 points.  In 1988-89 Mario Lemieux had 199 points, but only 102 were at even strength, so a difference of 97 points.  So, Lemieux needed special teams to get an extra 97 points, Gretzky only 65, a difference of 32 points.  

 

Mario Lemieux benefitted much more from special teams than Gretzky did...

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Most even strength points in NHL history in one season:

 

Wayne Gretzky - 147

Wayne Gretzky - 146

Wayne Gretzky - 143

Wayne Gretzky - 135

Wayne Gretzky - 132

Wayne Gretzky - 124

Wayne Gretzky - 104

Guy LaFleur - 104

Wayne Gretzky - 103

Mario Lemieux - 102

Steve Yzerman - 101

Jari Kurri - 101

Wayne Gretzky - 100

Wayne Gretzky - 100

Mike Bossy - 100

Phil Esposito - 99

Phil Esposito - 99

Wayne Gretzky - 96

Mario Lemieux - 96

Guy LaFleur - 96

Jaromir Jagr - 95

 

Most Even Strength Points NHL Season | StatMuse

 

This might be the most impressive statistic of them all.  Gretzky has the 7 top seasons for most even strength points in one NHL season and 11 of the top 21 of all time.  Just mind boggling really.

 

Also, those numbers show that unlike Gretzky, Mario Lemieux feasted on the power play, as he only had 2 seasons out of the top 21 of all time where he led the league in even strength points.

 

In 1981-82 Gretzky had 212 total points and 147 were even strength, a difference of 65 points.  In 1988-89 Mario Lemieux had 199 points, but only 102 were at even strength, so a difference of 97 points.  So, Lemieux needed special teams to get an extra 97 points, Gretzky only 65, a difference of 32 points.  

 

Mario Lemieux benefitted much more from special teams than Gretzky did...

Yep.   Notice who's also not on the list, despite being one of the few guys to break or get to 150?  Two guys actually.    

Edited August 15, 2023 by IBatch