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This should give us cause for concern.....


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#1 Bodee

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:04 AM

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I looked into this after watching how well the Detroit team performed last night. (I didn't think the score reflected the play by the way.)

3 Detroit players currently earning $4.0M. or more. Only 2 of those earning more than $5.0M


Posted Image

Posted Image

Vancouver have a 11 players earning $4.0M or more. 4 of those earning over $5.0M.


Posted Image

Posted Image

The irony is when you watch the teams play, it looks like the other way round. How is this doing it the Detroit way.

Now when you watch the type of game teams play it becomes more alarming. One team Detroit plays puck possession (the game that puts you under most pressure as an individual player, especially in the playoffs) while Vancouver are forever dumping the puck. The "no trust in my players" system.
So not only are we overpaying our players, we seem to be paying them to NOT play hockey. Our passing (with the exception of the Sedins and Raymond) is dark ages compared to the other elite teams.

Conclusions.
MG has not understood the role of a General Manager, in fact he still seems to think he's a players agent.

AV has in fact done much better with these players and that system than they deserve. In fact it appears to me now that he has employed that negative system for the sole purpose of suiting a bottom heavy group of overpaid players.

Lastly, it appears to me that not only has our GM stitched us up with the Lu contract (which ironically I have no problem with because I still think he is the best) but worse still he has hung bloated contracts around the heads of most of our average players as well.

Edited by Bodee, 16 May 2013 - 04:07 AM.

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#2 Kryten

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:14 AM

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After watching Detroit play the first round and game one of the second round it became quite clear they have more skill than the Canucks. It isn't just scoring ability, it's the little plays they make that open up ice (head fakes, feints) not to mention they ALWAYS support the puck (as a puck possession team relying on skill should). Canucks and the Wings style of play couldn't be more different than it is. Gillis can call our team a "Detroit modeled puck possession team" all he wants, it doesn't make it true. It makes him look like he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
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#3 :D

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:20 AM

The 2012-2013 season was cause for concern, not a bunch of charts in the offseason.
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#4 Bodee

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:27 AM

The 2012-2013 season was cause for concern, not a bunch of charts in the offseason.


These charts ARE the 2012-13 season or were you unable to take in the OP.

As Kryten reiterates, we are blaming all kinds of bad luck and coming up with a myriad of excuses but the bottom line is our players are just not reflecting their salaries or the size of this market on the ice.

Don't tell me our players are taking "home town discounts" when you see what some of these accomplished Detroit players are earning.
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#5 TheFastOne21

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:45 AM

Line by line they beat us in skill. I have never doubted that. We are a group of players that look like skill players when with the Sedins. Without the Sedins we are not and will not be a high skill team. The rest of the players are far from elite skill players. I mean throughout most of the league Burrows/Raymond/Higgins/Hansen/Kassian/Booth are all fringe to not even belonging top 6 players. Yet we rely on them to make meaningful contributions to this team and when they dont we complain about why not. We dont understand that they do not belong there.

We need to infuse our top 6 with skill players and use our bottom 6 to bang and crash. Not infuse all 4 lines with a confusion of players that dont know their role from game to game.
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#6 Ride the red Pony

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:32 AM

Would take Pavel and Zetter at those numbers in a heartbeat over the twins.
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#7 Gooseberries

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:34 AM

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So you started a 4 paragraph thread including 2 full capgeek charts just to say detroits future cap situation is better than ours? I'm tired of all these bs selective stat posts. Why don't you include all the flyers wild pens devils and leafs future problems too? All you have to say about this team is complete garbage bodee. Why are you even a fan then. Why don't you get a wings jersey, put "raymond 21" on the back and join their boards. I'm so sick of you and your negative attitude.
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#8 TheRussianRocket™

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:37 AM

Great point, never realized it that way especially by comparing the 2 teams....yea, we're in a messed up situation and I hope MG cleans up this mess soon or else cya later
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#9 Bodee

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:00 AM

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So you started a 4 paragraph thread including 2 full capgeek charts just to say detroits future cap situation is better than ours? I'm tired of all these bs selective stat posts. Why don't you include all the flyers wild pens devils and leafs future problems too? All you have to say about this team is complete garbage bodee. Why are you even a fan then. Why don't you get a wings jersey, put "raymond 21" on the back and join their boards. I'm so sick of you and your negative attitude.


Well whatever makes you happy. I'm just as sick of people like you who have been telling us for 3 years that there is nothing to worry about, while we nose dive to obscurity.

Why would I highlight another team? Gillis says we are going to do things the Detroit way.

You can't apparently see the problem with our salary remuneration, you are so far up MG's ass. As for picking another team, why would I? I picked Vancouver for good or bad for any number of reasons, none of which I have to justify to you.

That doesn't mean to say I have to swallow Mike Gillis's NHL version of the "Kings New Clothes"

Instead of, as all you happy clappers do, making a personal attack on me why not try to justify the figures above.

Oh and by the way, see this other thread on just how damaging the above can be.

http://www.theprovin...0209/story.html

Edited by Bodee, 16 May 2013 - 07:08 AM.

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#10 tas

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:12 AM

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hint: it's because kenny holland is one of the best in the game, and gillis is a joke.

i can't help but picture holland and the rest of the wings organization rolling their eyes and chuckling every time gillis compares the canucks to them.
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#11 canucks_dynasty

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:17 AM

So what you're telling me is that the Nucks are screwed.
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#12 Tearloch7

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:28 AM

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Let's see .. some folks can see nothing but negativity and some folks can only see the positive aspects .. those who dwell in the middle are largely ignored by the "prima donna" radical posters who propigate their own self-aggrandized "opinion" .. looking at life from the bottom of the glass must warp one's perspective eventually ..

Detroit has two dynamic "game change" players .. it appears we should have 3 minmum, but none performed up to their paychecks .. then compound that with less than stellar coaching at every level and you have the current Canucks .. changes MUST be made at all levels .. PERIOD ..

We now return you to your regularly scheduled whine-fest ..
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#13 Bodee

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:42 AM

Let's see .. some folks can see nothing but negativity and some folks can only see the positive aspects .. those who dwell in the middle are largely ignored by the "prima donna" radical posters who propigate their own self-aggrandized "opinion" .. looking at life from the bottom of the glass must warp one's perspective eventually ..

Detroit has two dynamic "game change" players .. it appears we should have 3 minmum, but none performed up to their paychecks .. then compound that with less than stellar coaching at every level and you have the current Canucks .. changes MUST be made at all levels .. PERIOD ..

We now return you to your regularly scheduled whine-fest ..


Good to see you still around T7.
I always look forward to your particular take on proceedings. :towel:
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#14 aqua59

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:50 AM

I looked into this after watching how well the Detroit team performed last night. (I didn't think the score reflected the play by the way.)

3 Detroit players currently earning $4.0M. or more. Only 2 of those earning more than $5.0M


Posted Image

Posted Image

Vancouver have a 11 players earning $4.0M or more. 4 of those earning over $5.0M.


Posted Image

Posted Image

The irony is when you watch the teams play, it looks like the other way round. How is this doing it the Detroit way.

Now when you watch the type of game teams play it becomes more alarming. One team Detroit plays puck possession (the game that puts you under most pressure as an individual player, especially in the playoffs) while Vancouver are forever dumping the puck. The "no trust in my players" system.
So not only are we overpaying our players, we seem to be paying them to NOT play hockey. Our passing (with the exception of the Sedins and Raymond) is dark ages compared to the other elite teams.

Conclusions.
MG has not understood the role of a General Manager, in fact he still seems to think he's a players agent.

AV has in fact done much better with these players and that system than they deserve. In fact it appears to me now that he has employed that negative system for the sole purpose of suiting a bottom heavy group of overpaid players.

Lastly, it appears to me that not only has our GM stitched us up with the Lu contract (which ironically I have no problem with because I still think he is the best) but worse still he has hung bloated contracts around the heads of most of our average players as well.


One more point. They seem to be dragging their heels on AV and his staff. In what you've pointed out above I"m sure the Aqilllini's are more than aware of the numbers. That inclines me to believe that Mike Gillis might be on that hot seat too.

That's ridiculous money not to be held accountable for. Dale Tallon didn't get away with that in Chicago even though that was a little different. It was being on top of things that got Tallon.

By the looks of the money spending by Gillis it doesn't look like he really knows what's happening to the Aquillini's money.
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#15 Raffi Torres's Smirk

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:59 AM

Man, I didnt know Zetterberg made less than the Sedins. He hits and blocks shots too (4 and 3 in last night's game, respectively). What a bummer.


Hey Detroit is probably super cheap to live in compared to Vancouver. Does anyone think that might be a factor when it comes time to ink a contract?
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#16 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:00 AM

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I looked into this after watching how well the Detroit team performed last night. (I didn't think the score reflected the play by the way.)

3 Detroit players currently earning $4.0M. or more. Only 2 of those earning more than $5.0M


Posted Image

Posted Image

Vancouver have a 11 players earning $4.0M or more. 4 of those earning over $5.0M.


Posted Image

Posted Image

The irony is when you watch the teams play, it looks like the other way round. How is this doing it the Detroit way.

Now when you watch the type of game teams play it becomes more alarming. One team Detroit plays puck possession (the game that puts you under most pressure as an individual player, especially in the playoffs) while Vancouver are forever dumping the puck. The "no trust in my players" system.
So not only are we overpaying our players, we seem to be paying them to NOT play hockey. Our passing (with the exception of the Sedins and Raymond) is dark ages compared to the other elite teams.

Conclusions.
MG has not understood the role of a General Manager, in fact he still seems to think he's a players agent.

AV has in fact done much better with these players and that system than they deserve. In fact it appears to me now that he has employed that negative system for the sole purpose of suiting a bottom heavy group of overpaid players.

Lastly, it appears to me that not only has our GM stitched us up with the Lu contract (which ironically I have no problem with because I still think he is the best) but worse still he has hung bloated contracts around the heads of most of our average players as well.


MG abandoned doing it "the Detroit way" when he gave up Cody for Kassian.
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#17 elvis15

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:05 AM

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So you started a 4 paragraph thread including 2 full capgeek charts just to say detroits future cap situation is better than ours? I'm tired of all these bs selective stat posts. Why don't you include all the flyers wild pens devils and leafs future problems too? All you have to say about this team is complete garbage bodee. Why are you even a fan then. Why don't you get a wings jersey, put "raymond 21" on the back and join their boards. I'm so sick of you and your negative attitude.

No kidding, not to mention the cutoff point nicely excluded Franzen's cap hit by $50K. Detroit does have less contracts a $4M or above, but then they have more than us in the $3M range and in the upper half of $2M. And Detroit having Datsyuk as a contract $600K higher than any of ours (and not forgetting Lidstrom's last year which they only lost this year due to retirement) as

I guess this is more of an indictment of Burke and Nonis, since the majority of the players we have at $4M or above were the core they drafted or traded for. Sure Gillis added some of his own, but at best you're saying he shouldn't have retained those core players from the old group since we'd have to pay them more for being high performers.

Then again, you'd have to blame the drafting from the Burke and Nonis years for not offering us better options in the mid range which Detroit is able to reap the rewards of after their years and years of good drafting. Gillis' efforts at the draft (and signing undrafted players) are starting to see fruition and you'll likely see four of those $4M and up contracts (Roy, Booth, Ballard and Luongo) replaced next year - but you don't just build a Detroit system in 5 years.

And then on Detroit they'll be adding at least Howard's new $5M+ contract and possibly an increase for Filppula if they can get him to stay.Brendan Smith is due for a raise as well, just not as much, and they've had enough trouble defensively all year that they'll be looking to add perhaps a contract there this summer. It's their D (and their average age) that'll be their downfall against Chicago so that skews the contracts a little as well.

One more thing, why did it matter how expensive our contracts are when we had a $70M+ cap ceiling? We spent to it, much like everyone else, because we didn't have that prospect depth to come in immediately and help from the previous GMs. We certainly weren't drafting high enough to have top end talent from the Gillis era fill those holes, and it's hard to emulate Detroit when you have to make decisions to help now on a team that has recently been to the SCF.

Man, I didnt know Zetterberg made less than the Sedins. He hits and blocks shots too (4 and 3 in last night's game, respectively). What a bummer.

Hey Detroit is probably super cheap to live in compared to Vancouver. Does anyone think that might be a factor when it comes time to ink a contract?

By $17K. Want to know why he makes less? Because his was the very first of the long term, back diving contracts. If he had a term similar to the Sedins, he'd be making much closer to Datsyuk.

The hockey in Detroit is great, but the city itself is terrible. The poor areas are only getting poorer with the recession from the economic downfall, and they were hit hard being so centered around the auto industry. Now, instead of using taxpayer's money to help the city, they're using it to build a new arena. They might need a new arena, but their city needs the help more.

In short, another selective, short-sighted thread trying to find fault rather than recognize challenges - and successes - we have since Gillis took over.

Edited by elvis15, 16 May 2013 - 08:20 AM.

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#18 Tearloch7

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:15 AM

Good to see you still around T7.
I always look forward to your particular take on proceedings. :towel:


Good to see you as well .. I was thinking you would be around CDC less this next couple of months .. you know, the only time of the year you can go outside there without gloves on? .. :lol:
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#19 lmm

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:29 AM

Detroit is a destination hockey club, MG said he was going to make Vancouver one but did not.
Remember a couple of years ago CDC keeners said MG would never trade a UFA signing because if would send a message to others thinking of signing here. He promptly traded Samuelson & Sturm (after 6games), Sulzer after 1/2 a season, demoted Bitz for Kassian and previously failed to sign Torres and Erhoff.
Torres was the one "Smallball" success in Gillis' tenure and he let him walk after 1 season.

I do not hink Vancouver is the Destination that Detroit is, hence the bloated, NT contracts.
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#20 doobiedoodoo

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:37 AM

Burrows is overpaid if Franzen is making less than 4 million.
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#21 Dogbyte

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:39 AM

I've been saying this forever, way too many mid-level players on this team. I would rather get some skill in here and suppliment with younger/cheaper talent.

Let's see .. some folks can see nothing but negativity and some folks can only see the positive aspects .. those who dwell in the middle are largely ignored by the "prima donna" radical posters who propigate their own self-aggrandized "opinion" .. looking at life from the bottom of the glass must warp one's perspective eventually ..

Detroit has two dynamic "game change" players .. it appears we should have 3 minmum, but none performed up to their paychecks .. then compound that with less than stellar coaching at every level and you have the current Canucks .. changes MUST be made at all levels .. PERIOD ..

We now return you to your regularly scheduled whine-fest ..


Unfortuantely the Sedins are not that dynamic. They can't play hockey without each other. Makes it pretty easy to negate their effect when you're two top earners and point getters can't play on different lines. Kesler is not a gamer changer. He played awesome in one series. Not the first time this happened in the NHL playoffs.
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#22 Canucklehead73

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:49 AM

Well Not like I have appreciated how some of Gillis's moves have turned out, I find it hard to speculate on our overall skill level when we play a "safe" AHL dump and chase game on most nights. And more often than not play at such an up and down level you have to wonder about our game preperation (We can play a high tempo hitting scoring game but often play soft and slow) I think this trends from AV changing lines every game and demoting players for mistakes... Everyone play is tentative and lacks chemistry

All in all If I was to point the finger at Gillis for anything it would be simply not getting it done in regards to the second line wingers and replacing Malholtra. I think our defense is adequate if not small, our third line of Higgins Hansen and Malholtra was gold (was until malholtra got hurt) Letting Torres go was a blunder as well...

I do not have any problems with the contracts he signed, obviously Ballard's does not equate with his performance, and Booth's lack of production makes his look bad...

MY opinion sits with the lack of legit top 6 forwards and not moving our problems, Ballard, Booth, Luongo and an overall lack of trust from the coaching staff stifling our creativity and morale.
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Go Canucks Go!

#23 Bananas

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:22 AM

Man, I didnt know Zetterberg made less than the Sedins. He hits and blocks shots too (4 and 3 in last night's game, respectively). What a bummer.


Hey Detroit is probably super cheap to live in compared to Vancouver. Does anyone think that might be a factor when it comes time to ink a contract?


Move to detroit and tell me it's worth living there for the price
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Hey CDC! Remember this!?

http://forum.canucks...in-this-change/

#24 Van bc

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:24 AM

Great point, never realized it that way especially by comparing the 2 teams....yea, we're in a messed up situation and I hope MG cleans up this mess soon or else cya later

it cant be cleaned just burnt to the ground and rebuilt
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#25 TheJokesOnYou

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:38 AM

Detroit is a destination hockey club, MG said he was going to make Vancouver one but did not.


Yeah, funny that not a lot of top end free agents are signing up to get punched in the head on a nightly basis.

Who woulda guessed?
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#26 bhawks21

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:38 AM

I looked into this after watching how well the Detroit team performed last night. (I didn't think the score reflected the play by the way.)

3 Detroit players currently earning $4.0M. or more. Only 2 of those earning more than $5.0M


Posted Image

Posted Image

Vancouver have a 11 players earning $4.0M or more. 4 of those earning over $5.0M.


Posted Image

Posted Image

The irony is when you watch the teams play, it looks like the other way round. How is this doing it the Detroit way.

Now when you watch the type of game teams play it becomes more alarming. One team Detroit plays puck possession (the game that puts you under most pressure as an individual player, especially in the playoffs) while Vancouver are forever dumping the puck. The "no trust in my players" system.
So not only are we overpaying our players, we seem to be paying them to NOT play hockey. Our passing (with the exception of the Sedins and Raymond) is dark ages compared to the other elite teams.

Conclusions.
MG has not understood the role of a General Manager, in fact he still seems to think he's a players agent.

AV has in fact done much better with these players and that system than they deserve. In fact it appears to me now that he has employed that negative system for the sole purpose of suiting a bottom heavy group of overpaid players.

Lastly, it appears to me that not only has our GM stitched us up with the Lu contract (which ironically I have no problem with because I still think he is the best) but worse still he has hung bloated contracts around the heads of most of our average players as well.


So did you miss the past decade when detroit was an all star team and paid its superstars really well or the cap end arounding it did before they got old and their players started to retire and leave? Yeah their cap situation is better then Vancouver's but vancouvers window to win has been more recent then the wings. They went for it and now are going to have to retool.

Also the Wings suck. Like really badly. They got beat like a red headed step child last night. Jimmy Howard was the only reason the hawks didn't make the game an embarassment. Their defense is terrible. Its slow and turn over prone. Dats and Zetterberg are old but still hace flashes of what they once were. The success they are having should be credited to babs. He has young players on the roster who really aren't ready for the league yet and has them playing within that system and has managed to win a playoff round which is nothing short of astonishing.

Edited by bhawks21, 16 May 2013 - 09:45 AM.

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#27 MoneypuckOverlord

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:48 AM

Look at the standings. We suffered far more injuries then Detroit and still got a divsion title. On top of that the last 3 years vancouver has generally performed much better then Detroit. Your once again taking a small sample over the big picture. Of course, i'm not defending the fact we played poorly this year, your right, but still. Detroit also gets free passes as for Vancouver we get destroyed by the refs. But once again I agree, we need to cut down some bad contracts.
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Players Nikolaj Ehlers have been compared too by the fan base of the Vancouver Canucks.

 

1 Pavel Bure

2 Markus Naslund

3 Nathan Mackkinon

4 Jonathan Drouin.

5 Jonathan Tavares

 

http://bleacherrepor...d-top-prospects

combine results.  Ehlers 5'11 162 lbs of solid rock.  


#28 Captain Aerosex

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:49 AM

So what you're telling us is Detroit's management is consistently amazing and our's isn't? Say it ain't so...

And to think, if the Canucks had won the Cup in 2011, Lu's contract could've been seen as a great loophole for giving Vancouver extra cap room to bolster the team that season.

Would take Pavel and Zetter at those numbers in a heartbeat over the twins.


Barring any insane price difference, you'd be crazy to not take Datsyuk and Zata over the twins. The only duo I'd pick over them would be Crosby and Malkin.

Edited by Captain Aerosex, 16 May 2013 - 09:50 AM.

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#29 apollo

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:50 AM

hint: it's because kenny holland is one of the best in the game, and gillis is a joke.

i can't help but picture holland and the rest of the wings organization rolling their eyes and chuckling every time gillis compares the canucks to them.

Holland is a GM that's why.

Gillis is an agent... that's all he should be. Can his ass.
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WHATCHU GONNA DO WHEN MILLERMANIA RUNS WILDDDD ON YOU?!

#30 Blue & Green

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:52 AM

Man, I didnt know Zetterberg made less than the Sedins. He hits and blocks shots too (4 and 3 in last night's game, respectively). What a bummer.


Hey Detroit is probably super cheap to live in compared to Vancouver. Does anyone think that might be a factor when it comes time to ink a contract?


Agree that Zetterberg>Sedin, however Zetterberg's contract is a 6m cap hit for 7 more years. He will be 40 when it expires.

Also, agree that it's probably cheaper to live in the gun murder capital of North America.
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