[Discussion] When did the Canucks Truly Start Rebuilding?

[appleboy]

I am bitter today because all I see now is a 12th overall pick coming our way. We need top five talent. Three times over. I hate this management.

[-DLC-]

42 minutes ago, appleboy said:

I am bitter today because all I see now is a 12th overall pick coming our way. We need top five talent. Three times over. I hate this management.

Quit whining.  Honestly.  

 

It's a sunny day outside.  Our team is younger, faster and despite needing some holes filled, fun to watch.  Go get some fresh air and try to find something positive in all of this.  Life is what you make it - NOT what others do.

 

I, too, will take my own advice because this place is dark and gloomy at the moment.  Again.  Still.

[appleboy]

16 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

Quit whining.  Honestly.  

 

It's a sunny day outside.  Our team is younger, faster and despite needing some holes filled, fun to watch.  Go get some fresh air and try to find something positive in all of this.  Life is what you make it - NOT what others do.

 

I, too, will take my own advice because this place is dark and gloomy at the moment.  Again.  Still.

We will discuss this again in 5 years. It will be the same topic.

[RonMexico]

31 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

Quit whining.  Honestly.  

 

It's a sunny day outside.  Our team is younger, faster and despite needing some holes filled, fun to watch.  Go get some fresh air and try to find something positive in all of this.  Life is what you make it - NOT what others do.

 

I, too, will take my own advice because this place is dark and gloomy at the moment.  Again.  Still.

 

He can't go outside. Basement dwellers fear then sun. It may bring happiness to them.

[RonMexico]

2 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

Yeah, that's just wishful thinking by anyone who is a Benning supporter. Aquilini isn't going to accept a 10 year rebuild and nor does he expect the fans to.

 

Not a chance that he'll be able to explain why we haven't been a true contender for a decade under the same GM and his job isn't in jeopardy.

 

Aquilini is the one who hired Linden and Benning to work in tandem. He knew what the "plan" was (whatever that was, I'm still not sure).

 

Just canning Benning and bringing in a new guy will all but assure there will be a 10 year rebuild. Probably longer. When you enter a dire situation you can't just right the ship in 2 years - not when it takes prospects up to 3 or 4 years to mature - unless the previous GM set you up for success with a stocked cupboard.

 

If Benning gets replaced, expect more and more losing in the short term.

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, appleboy said:

Benning was sold as some great talent evaluator but I have yet to see it. His trades tell me that he has no clue. The drafts have been getting better as they rely on Judd more and more. Bracket is the rising star. Benning needs to be replaced.

Bracket to GM, and ?Benning to Pres

[RonMexico]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Bracket to GM, and ?Benning to Pres

That accomplishes nothing really.

 

Brackett is a scout. So you want to replace Benning with a different Benning?

[appleboy]

We need a real GM. Bracket should stay doing what he is good at. Benning gets a boot out the door.

I still think that part of the problem is the owners. They will not here the word rebuild or I should say they will not allow one. We are not in a rebuild. We are in a mess.

[ilduce39]

I love how people assume JB just tripped over his own junk to amass a top prospect pool plus back to back Calder finalist rookies... with a potential third on the way.  

 

No, he didn’t put all his eggs in the tank n draft basket... and we’ll never know how that path would have turned out.  But to think there hasn’t been an effort to rebuild is just plain silly.

 

It’s also silly to assume you rebuild with picks and rookies alone.  When you look at highly skilled, young teams underachieving I’m glad to have a team with some young talent and a bunch of old pluggers who overachieve compared to prognosticators who have them dead last year after year.  

 

That’s my safety blanket against Oilering.  Or Sabreing I guess. Or Starsing. Or Avelanching.  Or Coyoteing.  Or whatever-ing teams who might even be on the playoff bubble but have way less to show for years of futility compared to the bare shelves and NTC’s JB inherited 5 seasons ago. 

 

—

 

With all that said, JB has received passing marks from me thus far for two reasons:

 

-Improving the prospect pool and building a new core.  

 

-not letting the NHL team devolve into an underachieving, infighting swamp. (They work hard and avoid controversy.)

 

Now I think it’s time for JB to put some polish on what he’s built.  It’s fair to say he hasn’t been as successful in this area thus far.  Some of his bigger trades and FA signings have been duds (though he’s had mlre success than his detractors will admit as well.) 

 

Benning has a tall task this offseason: I think he needs to try and wiggle out from LE’s contract, trim some fat in other areas where he can and add a difference maker on the back end for sure and up front if he can.  

 

Pressure will be on to add another pick or two with the home draft as well but that’s gravy. 

 

I think JB’s legacy will always be tied to his 1sts in Brock/Pettersson/Hughes/Virtanen/Juolevi but this offseason he has a chance to shut up all of his nay sayers by polishing up what he’s built and taking a real tangible step forward next year.  

[kanucks25]

1 hour ago, RonMexico said:

 

Just canning Benning and bringing in a new guy will all but assure there will be a 10 year rebuild. Probably longer. When you enter a dire situation you can't just right the ship in 2 years - not when it takes prospects up to 3 or 4 years to mature - unless the previous GM set you up for success with a stocked cupboard.

 

If Benning gets replaced, expect more and more losing in the short term.

Nobody said 2 years. 6 years with no significant step forward (if it doesn't happen next year) is a lot different than 2 years.

 

It's true Benning didn't exactly have a base to build around, and that's why nobody expected it turn around in 2 years (except maybe Benning?). 

 

But it's not like Benning inherited an empty cupboard. Note that, a full 5 years later, 3 of his 4 best D-men (this doesn't even include Biega outplaying all the depth D-men Benning acquired), his starting goalie that single-handedly kept this season from becoming a complete tire-fire and his young future captain were all from the previous regimes. Not to mention all the "assets" he got/could have got for all the veterans that were shipped out.

 

Frankly tired of the "Benning's hands were tied" argument. Was he dealt the best hand? Definitely not. But was it as bleak as some make it out to be? Not even close.

 

 

[Alflives]

3 hours ago, RonMexico said:

That accomplishes nothing really.

 

Brackett is a scout. So you want to replace Benning with a different Benning?

I’m worried we will lose Bracket.  The guy is the reason why we are drafting better.  Can we just pay him a lot more?  

[CanadianRugby]

RED       - Show missing draft picks that year

GREEN  - Show added draft picks that year

Canucks

2019 - 6, 6

2018 - 4

2017 - 2 

2016 - 2, 4, 7

2015 - 2, 5

2014 - 1, 4

 

I think we can all agree that rebuilds are done through the draft right?  The Canucks have never gone that route.  They've added top end prospects due to having high draft picks every year, and hit a home run on Boeser.  I don't know if being a bad team and getting high picks means you're rebuilding.  

 

Compare that to the these teams for example, though granted some of these picks are conditional

Rangers

2018 - 1, 1, 3

2019 - 1, 1, 1 (or 2nd), 2  

2020 - 1, 3, 7, 7

 

Red Wings

2017 - 3, 3, 3, 6

2018 - 1, 2, 3, 3, 5

2019 - 2, 2, 2, 5, 7

2020 - 2, 2, 3

2021 - 3

 

Ottawa 

2018 - 1, 3, 7

2019 - 1, 2, 2, 7

2020 - 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6

 

[Ghostsof1915]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

Bracket to GM, and ?Benning to Pres

Doesn't work that way. 

[kanucks25]

15 hours ago, Alflives said:

I’m worried we will lose Bracket.  The guy is the reason why we are drafting better.  Can we just pay him a lot more?  

If they really believe he's that much of an asset he can be promoted to Assistant GM. His duties will likely remain about the same but it's just an upgrade when it comes to title and salary.

[Salacious Crumb]

19 hours ago, appleboy said:

We need a real GM. Bracket should stay doing what he is good at. Benning gets a boot out the door.

I still think that part of the problem is the owners. They will not here the word rebuild or I should say they will not allow one. We are not in a rebuild. We are in a mess.

Forest for the trees appleboy?

 

Francesco himself has admitted that it takes time to rebuild (sorry not good at adding links on my phone). Where do you get this malarky that the owner will not allow a rebuild?

 

I can’t wait for your continued negativity next season when we make the playoffs.

 

The Hockey News just ranked us a having the 3rd best prospect pool in the league...is that what you call a mess?

[appleboy]

4 minutes ago, Salacious Crumb said:

Forest for the trees appleboy?

 

Francesco himself has admitted that it takes time to rebuild (sorry not good at adding links on my phone). Where do you get this malarky that the owner will not allow a rebuild?

 

I can’t wait for your continued negativity next season when we make the playoffs.

 

The Hockey News just ranked us a having the 3rd best prospect pool in the league...is that what you call a mess?

There is no rebuild. We have drafted high because everything Jim has done has failed. He never accumulated draft picks and built up our system. He waisted any picks he landed on older duds. 

As far as our prospect pool. It is still so weak that now that those high picks that were landed because of incompetence are graduating into the NHL we will be back into the middle. Lets wait until they revaluate us without Petey and Hughes. Mid to bottom of the pack.

I don't know what you want but just being a playoff team is not good enough. I want a cup contender. We are years away from that and no plan to get there.

[appleboy]

A rebuild is not just about the NHL team. It is about the overall organization. Teams that make long runs into the playoffs always have depth.  They usually have strong farm systems. When I say rebuild I am talking about the organization. Fans are getting excited about a couple of high level players at he NHL. You should be. It is exciting to watch Petey and Brock develop. I watch every game and enjoy seeing our youth be successful.

The problem is that the few young players at this level are it. ( Hughes included) We have no one else that is ready to go. Maybe a couple of 4th liners. This management new that the cupboard was bare and have not done anything to solve it. This year they will be forced to dip into the UFA market. They might find a player or two but at what cost to the future?

We are relying on two veteran D men who are always injured and we have all seen what depth is like after that. If we get a couple of injuries to key people we are dead in the water.

Benning gets his direction from the owners. His main focus has been about the NHL and thus ticket sales.  With Petey , Hughes , Demko and Gaudette graduating to the NHL our prospect pool is middle of the road or lower end. This year we will be probably drafting outside of the top ten.

[189lb enforcers?]

On 3/19/2019 at 10:30 AM, debluvscanucks said:

Here's the thing...you want black and white, cut and dry....but often teams are in a period of transition/assessment/etc.  Changes are made on an ongoing basis, not in a clean swoop that gets things done or checks off on a list.

 

Again...it's easy to use hindsight to say what should have happened but it's in real time that decisions are made (or not).  But there are always two sides to these stories - you don't just "get" guys.  It's a process of negotiation and options are dictated by that.

 

If the team is trending up, let it go.  Be part of the positive moment instead of lamenting the past and what could have been because it matters little (no - zero) at this point.

 

The would have should haves are a lot easier with the end result in your hands but, unfortunately, it's not how it works.  You try different things along the way and some of them work (EP - wonder how you felt about that pick?) and some don't.

Deb, don’t tell me what to think or feel and I won’t tell you what you should do and sincerely, if I wanted to talk Hockey with somebody, it wouldn’t be with you.

 

If that offends you, oh well. Might as well just get that out in the open so we know not to bother with having to bother with quoting each other or responses to those. 

 

I suppose that sounds bad, but it’s sincere. 

 

 

 

 

I will say this in this space concerning the rebuild though, I realize that as GM, JB’s hands were likely bound by the owners demands for his first few seasons here.

 

I understand why he may have made serveral decisions and non-actions, but in the period since, he’s not been exactly a master tactician either. 

 

 

 

 

 

[-DLC-]

47 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Deb, don’t tell me what to think or feel and I won’t tell you what you should do and sincerely, if I wanted to talk Hockey with somebody, it wouldn’t be with you.

 

If that offends you, oh well. Might as well just get that out in the open so we know not to bother with having to bother with quoting each other or responses to those. 

 

I suppose that sounds bad, but it’s sincere. 

 

 

 

 

I will say this in this space concerning the rebuild though, I realize that as GM, JB’s hands were likely bound by the owners demands for his first few seasons here.

 

I understand why he may have made serveral decisions and non-actions, but in the period since, he’s not been exactly a master tactician either. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Says it wouldn't be with you if he wanted to talk hockey.  Then talks hockey with at me.

 

Sure.

 

[Salacious Crumb]

7 hours ago, appleboy said:

A rebuild is not just about the NHL team. It is about the overall organization. Teams that make long runs into the playoffs always have depth.  They usually have strong farm systems. When I say rebuild I am talking about the organization. Fans are getting excited about a couple of high level players at he NHL. You should be. It is exciting to watch Petey and Brock develop. I watch every game and enjoy seeing our youth be successful.

The problem is that the few young players at this level are it. ( Hughes included) We have no one else that is ready to go. Maybe a couple of 4th liners. This management new that the cupboard was bare and have not done anything to solve it. This year they will be forced to dip into the UFA market. They might find a player or two but at what cost to the future?

We are relying on two veteran D men who are always injured and we have all seen what depth is like after that. If we get a couple of injuries to key people we are dead in the water.

Benning gets his direction from the owners. His main focus has been about the NHL and thus ticket sales.  With Petey , Hughes , Demko and Gaudette graduating to the NHL our prospect pool is middle of the road or lower end. This year we will be probably drafting outside of the top ten.

The great thing about this forum is that we can continue to have these discussions.

 

Let’s see what happens July 1 and at the draft. I’m definitely wxcited for next year as the team is definitely on the uptick.

 

Karlsson, Myers, Stone and others are UFA’s, the draft is here so I suspect JB will be working on a trade or 2. 

 

JB has proven he is willing to move on from his missteps so maybe a Virtanen, LE and a later pick to move up at the draft or for a solid young prospect move the needle for you at all? Having said that look at the career arc of a Bertuzzi or Benn could be throwing Jake away before he fully comes into his own.

 

It’s a beautiful day - enjoying the Sun, the cherry blossoms and a Canucks victory tonight with an adult beverage on the first day of Spring. Glass half full or half empty, it’s all how you look at it amigo.