Jake Virtanen Vs Jared McCann. Juolevi??? JB????

[oldnews]

14 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

I see Juolevi as Edlers replacement after next season, and for next season our 6-7 dman. I would say if he follows that path he would be a fixture on this team at 23. 

Agreed - I was looking at Edler's early years yesterday, wondering where Juolevi's timeline matches up with his.

Edler was breaking into the league at Juolevi's current age - had a 20 pts season as a rookie at 21.

That was with a group that had Ohlund, Salo, Mitchell, Bieksa...a pretty good blueline, veteran blueline (also playing in front of Luongo).

I think it's likely Juolevi could have made this roster at this point - but he's had too many health setbacks to expect that at this point.  He played 18 games last year = essentially a lost year of development.

Still, it won't surprise me if he pushes his way in in the near future - he's been impressively productive thus far in Utica this year - and really, with Edler still being a workhorse playing 23 minutes a night, Hughes playing nearly 22 minutes himself, and a couple good depth placeholders in Benn and Fantenburg, there's no real need to be concerned about his timeline/or to rush him.

 

 

[Arrow 1983]

7 hours ago, Provost said:

It is a pretty big error to cherry pick two players and say that is the normal trajectory for non elite players.

 

Everyone develops differently and most never develop to the point of being NHL regulars and more specifically guys that play in the top half of your roster.

 

Everyone stalls at different points too.  Development isn’t linear.  You really don’t know if either of these guys will keep getting better, or even fall off and this ends up being their career years.

 

Even with 1st rounders, more fail than make it... so being in the NHL at all means they aren’t a bust.

It wasn't cherry picking, any nhl fan who follows Hockey players development would say most players hit their prime in today's era at 23ish and last till about 29ish.

Ask your self this is Petty at his best now or will he be even better at 23.

This is true for all superstars as well,

McDavid, Sid and insert superstar name here. These guys are good when they come into the league they are true pros and top of the league at 23ish to 29ish.

[Arrow 1983]

7 hours ago, Lancaster said:

Were there actually any real character issues with McCann?  Either than Bartkowski's mom going off-the-record and Brandon Prust's complaining that rookies needs to "fight their own battles"... I don't remember hearing any horror stories.

 

Casting off a 18 year old rookie immediately after the 1st season.... it was a huge blunder by JB.  

And here in is my point anything that an 18-19 year old does shouldn't be an issue. It just means the Adults in that man's life should work with him and help him grow to become a better person, this is not just true about players but life in general. 

[WeneedLumme]

8 hours ago, Lancaster said:

Were there actually any real character issues with McCann?  Either than Bartkowski's mom going off-the-record and Brandon Prust's complaining that rookies needs to "fight their own battles"... I don't remember hearing any horror stories.

 

Casting off a 18 year old rookie immediately after the 1st season.... it was a huge blunder by JB.  

In case you are interested, there are a few factual errors in your post. McCann was not traded when he was 18, it was just a few days before he turned 20. And it was 2 years after he was drafted, not one.

 

And trading for something (in this case size and toughness) that your team badly needs is not "casting off" the player. And it was only a blunder in hindsight, the specialty of armchair GMs.

[spur1]

37 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said:

It wasn't cherry picking, any nhl fan who follows Hockey players development would say most players hit their prime in today's era at 23ish and last till about 29ish.

Ask your self this is Petty at his best now or will he be even better at 23.

This is true for all superstars as well,

McDavid, Sid and insert superstar name here. These guys are good when they come into the league they are true pros and top of the league at 23ish to 29ish.

Just to knit pick...I didn’t realize Petey was so petty. 

[IBatch]

22 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

I think both McCann and Virtanen where casualties of need, they where at the time the best the Canucks could muster, it wasn't the best for their careers  

At the time there was very heavy pressure to play the kids if you recall.  There is no reason to point fingers (was it Linden? JB? Aquaman? Or a bit of circumstance?  We had a huge age gap at the time which also led to Vey and Bear.... 

 

JB deserves some credit for backing off and not playing any young player unless they've earned it.  EP, QH were exceptions...maybe BB too (many thought he'd play a year earlier then he did if you re-call but they sent him back).  

 

McAan had attitude issues and was used in a trade almost right away .... also a good thing, in the end it gave us Pearson. 

 

OJ has figured out each level after a few months and the AHL is no exception....bodes extremely well for us given if he was good right away no EP, no and definitely no QH.   He's lighting it up the past 12 games too.   I've seen him live a few times last year and he was ok those games (last year), Brisbois was definitely better.   His defensivene game definitely needed work so glad to hear he's figuring out.

 

With Rafferty quite possibly upgrading Stetcher - and fingers crossed OJ possibly replacing Edler eventually things could be looking very good in a year or two.

 

JB has backed off for sure - and he's letting the AHL and other leagues develop his guys - Madden looks like our fourth Hobey Baker winner or finalist in as many years...wow...wow...wow.   

 

This year is technically our best chance to load up for a cup run.  Soon all the insulation is going to disappear and don't be surprised if there are some hiccups (for those that don't like TG - that's when he will go).  Having this sort of depth only furthers the chances we have as the way of attrition takes over each round ...

[Arrow 1983]

4 minutes ago, spur1 said:

Just to knit pick...I didn’t realize Petey was so petty. 

LOL ok I give you that one my bad

[Arrow 1983]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

At the time there was very heavy pressure to play the kids if you recall.  There is no reason to point fingers (was it Linden? JB? Aquaman? Or a bit of circumstance?  We had a huge age gap at the time which also led to Vey and Bear.... 

 

 

That's why Teams pay managers and coaches, they are the professionals not the fans and media. Their job isn't to give into fan and media pressure, it is their job to assess where the players are. 

[Lancaster]

2 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

In case you are interested, there are a few factual errors in your post. McCann was not traded when he was 18, it was just a few days before he turned 20. And it was 2 years after he was drafted, not one.

 

And trading for something (in this case size and toughness) that your team badly needs is not "casting off" the player. And it was only a blunder in hindsight, the specialty of armchair GMs.

Okay... almost 20.... but still a young rookie regardless.

He was a skilled 2-way centre with good speed and Gudbranson was a tough stay-at-home defenseman.  Tough defenseman aren't uncommon, same with defensive ones.  

 

The team at the time badly needed centres.  Bo was the next one up, and while they still had Henrik, it was obvious that he won't be around forever.  While not to say McCann would have replaced Henrik, the team needed a succession plan.  I'd figured it be like the 2009 Flyers, with Horvat being in the role of Mike Richards and Jared McCann being in place of Jeff Carter.  

Instead, the Canucks opened up one hole in an attempt to plug another.  

 

[Junkyard Dog]

43 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said:

It wasn't cherry picking, any nhl fan who follows Hockey players development would say most players hit their prime in today's era at 23ish and last till about 29ish.

Ask your self this is Petty at his best now or will he be even better at 23.

This is true for all superstars as well,

McDavid, Sid and insert superstar name here. These guys are good when they come into the league they are true pros and top of the league at 23ish to 29ish.

Depends for some players. I feel it is more an experience thing. Took 4 years for Mackinnon and Eichel to be who they are now and they had big jump in development. Went from really good top 6 guys to top 10 players.

 

That's more for forwards though. D can take till mid 20s to become dominant. They have a harder time adjusting since it is a tougher position. We have been seeing a few more D make the jump early and have a huge impact though. So it could change in the right direction moving forward. Goalies are even longer.

 

I feel Petey will be better after a couple more seasons. Especially when his body fills out.

[Arrow 1983]

1 minute ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Depends for some players. I feel it is more an experience thing. Took 4 years for Mackinnon and Eichel to be who they are now and they had big jump in development. Went from really good top 6 guys to top 10 players.

 

That's more for forwards though. D can take till mid 20s to become dominant. They have a harder time adjusting since it is a tougher position. We have been seeing a few more D make the jump early and have a huge impact though. So it could change in the right direction moving forward. Goalies are even longer.

 

I feel Petey will be better after a couple more seasons. Especially when his body fills out.

I think Petey will be better just cause he will have more experience

I Can see Petey as a top 3 player in the league in 2-3 years he is truly that talented, Petey ceiling is for sure his to chose he is a true talent

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, Arrow 1983 said:

I think Petey will be better just cause he will have more experience

I Can see Petey as a top 3 player in the league in 2-3 years he is truly that talented, Petey ceiling is for sure his to chose he is a true talent

Yeah it is a possibility. Mackinnon wasn't a PPG player till his 5th year. Now he has 70 points in 48 games. He's a top player.

 

Petey could go through a similar jump. Just needs more experience to get used to the pressure he is gonna face on a daily basis and learn to thrive despite. Getting a bit bigger and stronger will definitely help. 176lbs right now, he can up that another 10 pounds at least, especially at 6'2''.

[IBatch]

24 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Yeah it is a possibility. Mackinnon wasn't a PPG player till his 5th year. Now he has 70 points in 48 games. He's a top player.

 

Petey could go through a similar jump. Just needs more experience to get used to the pressure he is gonna face on a daily basis and learn to thrive despite. Getting a bit bigger and stronger will definitely help. 176lbs right now, he can up that another 10 pounds at least, especially at 6'2''.

What I can't wait for is when his shot becomes a weapon like it was for Naslund and Bure.  He rang a one timer off the post last game and had the goalie beat by a good margin.   His shot is sick - better then BB which is no slight speaking of which same with him.   We have two guys that could very likely challenge for the Richard in their primes.  BB reminds me a lot about Brett Hull.   Just needs to get his mojo back - at worst he's a Kessel like player and nothing at all wrong with that. 

 

Both guys barely have their feet wet in this league - most take a couple more years before they produce like that (see Naslund and the Sedins).

 

Factually we've only ever had Linden and Bure that stepped in and make an immediate impact like these guys (add QH to the group, he's awesome).   And we've definitely not seen the best of them yet.   BB took a 26th ranked PP and brought it up to 9th his rookie year - his injuries have slowed things down but he will get over it...could see him having a fantastic finish this year.

 

Either next year or the one after that EP will be prime-time, and have a decade or more as a top five center in this league....could argue he's already there now. 

 

Won't see the best of QH for 5-7 years .... what the heck is that going to look like?  Wouldn't bet against him to win a couple of Norris trophies along the way either.   Cool that we can discuss this at all...

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Either next year or the one after that EP will be prime-time, and have a decade or more as a top five center in this league....could argue he's already there now. 

Idk about that. There are a lot of quality center-icemen. A lot of centers are having insane seasons.

 

Right now top 15 for sure and that's no slight for a sophomore player.

 

His shot when he adds 10-15 pounds of muscle is gonna be tough to stop.

[Johnny Torts]

Not playing hockey for a year and a bummed knee before that while playing had an effect on OJ but from what I’ve heard in the Twitter sphere he has been doing very very well lately. Not every season where we can insert a top 6 in Podkolzin and an NHL ready D into our lineup. And who knows what happens with BR the kid is looking for his opportunity too. Lots of pieces in play. Our team looks locked solid with grit and skill when healthy it’s a very good playoff build. Guys like Horvat Sutter Motte Virtanen Tanev and Miller are so valuable come playoffs. Foundations of a playoff run. Grit and skill. 
 

 

[Arrow 1983]

50 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Yeah it is a possibility. Mackinnon wasn't a PPG player till his 5th year. Now he has 70 points in 48 games. He's a top player.

 

Petey could go through a similar jump. Just needs more experience to get used to the pressure he is gonna face on a daily basis and learn to thrive despite. Getting a bit bigger and stronger will definitely help. 176lbs right now, he can up that another 10 pounds at least, especially at 6'2''.

I say a top 3 guy but the truth is I really believe as the guys ahead of him get older I think his Ceiling could be #1 guy in the league even if it is only for a year or 2

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, Arrow 1983 said:

I say a top 3 guy but the truth is I really believe as the guys ahead of him get older I think his Ceiling could be #1 guy in the league even if it is only for a year or 2

Gonna have a lot of competition. Matthews is pretty damn good. IMO a top 3 goal scorer right now. Has a career average of 40 goals a season(per 82 games). Eichel has just started to look like a top 5 player and Pasternak too. Haven't even mentioned McDavid or Drisaitl yet. Mackinnon too. A lot of guys to compete with. 

 

NHL is not gonna have a lack of stars moving forward. USA has been popping out a lot lately. If we got the Olympics back it would be very very interesting.

 

 

[Arrow 1983]

10 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Gonna have a lot of competition. Matthews is pretty damn good. IMO a top 3 goal scorer right now. Has a career average of 40 goals a season(per 82 games). Eichel has just started to look like a top 5 player and Pasternak too. Haven't even mentioned McDavid or Drisaitl yet. Mackinnon too. A lot of guys to compete with. 

 

NHL is not gonna have a lack of stars moving forward. USA has been popping out a lot lately. If we got the Olympics back it would be very very interesting.

 

 

All those guys are older then Petey and we haven't even seen Petey at his best. I think Petey has so many more levels in his game this goes for Hughes as well

Edited January 21, 2020 by Arrow 1983

[Arrow 1983]

I would also like to say I am completely impress with Boeser this season. He has dealt with some of the toughest stuff any young man has to go through with his Dads sickness.

 

Just image trying to stay focus through all that and putting up the numbers he has.

 

Image if he had his full focus on just playing hockey, I'm sure he would just be tearing it up goal wise this season.

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Arrow 1983

[Rob_Zepp]

12 hours ago, timberz21 said:

Juolevi at 21 is still young and it takes longer for a defenseman to develop.  However, the plan when we selected him was to be a 1st pairing defenseman and that I doubt that will happen.  At his peak Juolevi might reach a #3 defenseman, but most likely will be a 4-5-6.

 

If he can become what Nicklas Hjalmarsson (maybe not style of play, but impact on the team) was for the Blackhawks, that would be a win.

OJ's ceiling is easily a top pairing guy and his floor a 3 or 4.    I have watched a dozen of his games live this year and this kid is a gem.   Not sure what more you want out of a developing player than he is showing right now.   He past 10-12 games are the first he has had injury/pain free in a long while and he is DOMINATING games.   

 

Not sure what it is about writing off kids before they have a chance to develop - let alone kids who have some initial bad injury luck.   If he was 25 or so, then temper the expectation but your writing him off now given what he is doing and given how young he is simply makes zero sense.