Pears Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Completely unrealistic Only way you get Couturier, Simmonds, and Coburn out of Philly is if we trade Raymond, Ballard, and a 1st............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombieksa Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I like the idea of this trade. Lu+raymond for Gardiner+1st+3rd Gardiner+Edler for Both Schenns, Leighton, 3rd Edler= L Schenn+Leighton+3rd Lu= B Schenn+1st Raymond= 3rd Get our backups Get our RHD Get our 2/3 center get 3 picks we can use to play around at trade deadline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sampy Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 And Luongo is worth more than Gardiner, so, uh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eretz canucks Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I still like Luongo for Couturier straight up. I'd be willing to take bryz if that means we get couturier+ something- a first or... To PHI Luongo Raymond Kassian To VAN Bryz Couturier Simmonds 2nd Waive Bryz or trade him to TO for a 2nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgyfan Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Canucks need a true offensive dman in the system as well as another centre. Lu, Ray, Alberts, Shroeder, 3rd For Gardiner, Biggs, Reimer and Connolly (Bozak if they would rather) Then Reimer, Gaunce, Sauve, Ballard, 2nd For Couturier, Simmonds, Leighton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sampy Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 MG grab this and run. Run very hard. Nuck fans are getting out of hand since the Burke firing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I would have thought the same thing - Schenn, Simmonds and a second for Richards - no way. I'd never do that. Carter for Vorachek, the 8th overall (Couturier) and a 3rd round pick. No GD way. What's that - Kaberle (a rental) for Colborne, a 1st and a conditional 2nd - you're out of your mind... It would seem that proven veterans have significant value - even when they are pending UFAs, or have lifetime contracts like Richards or Carter.... In my mind, Luongo has as much value to a team as any of these guys - easily. Flame away. I don't think my proposals are that far off. I'd be willing to move, be countered, but really, I think you and King are underestimating the market. And I've seen a whole lot of serious overpayments in the other direction in the past 20 pages... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Holmgren is a guy who just moved two players in exchange for the entire farm. Richards - 12 years, 69 million. Carter - 11 years, 58 million. A pair of guys whose character were being questioned, who were perceived to need a change of scenery. Philly's return - Schenn, Simmonds, Vorachek, Couturier, 2nd, 3rd... Holmgren then watched those two guys compose 2/3 of the 2nd line of a Stanley Cup winning team. He on the other hand still has the farm. He's also watched Bryzgalov melt down to degrees and consistency that Canucks fans can't even fathom. When folks here say we'll never get Couturier, we'll never get Gardiner, we'll never get Reilly, we'll won't get Vorachek, we won't get Schenn, etc etc, essentially you are saying we can't get less than half the value of a Richards or a Carter - a pair of second line players - for (conservatively) a top 15/20 goaltender like Luongo. I think you may want to rethink that, particularly after the landscape has changed the way it has with the new CBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Wow, I'd be happy with just Couturier (and either another depth player or pick)...but that's just me haha. And If we need any other pieces....well philly needs defensemen..ballard, i'm looking at you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Folks have simply gotten used to the insulting concept that Luongo isn't a legitimate starter - easily in the top 20 among NHL goaltenders. What is a top 20 forward worth? A top 20 blueliner? A lot of people here that I sure as hell wouldn't want doing my bidding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripplereh Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I know this won't happen but I'd like to see a three team deal Calgary,Toronto,Vancouver to Van: Franson , Iginla and a 1st & 3rd or 4th from CF to CF: Ballard , Kadri , young player from leafs and two 1st from TML to TML: Raymond,Luo,CF throw in Let CF get the first 1st rounder,we get second first rounder and CF get the third 1st rounder!!! This would work for all teams and make them better,only thing CF wont part with iginla even if it makes them better which this trade would!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I was trying to show you some respect since before me "critiquing" (to say the least) your NYI proposal we seemed to agree alot. Anyways the Kaberle situation is alot more comparable to the Richards/Carter trades, Kaberle was percieved to be a very good defensemen who Boston desperately needed (Needed to improve there Powerplay) and Colbourne + 1st + Condiditional 2nd isn't as bad as it looks as first glance, I don't condone the deal cause I thought it was brilliant by Burke aswell, but it is becoming evident as it seems to be clear to me now that Colbourne's upside isn't as high as originally thought (I say 3rd liner myself) then the 1st is 30th and the 2nd was on them winning the cup I believe? So they got that pick which was 60th, and if they hadn't had won it would have been just Joe and the 1st. The Carter/Richards deals are a bit different though. Richards his deal does back dive but his expires when he is 33, it doesn't still have 10 more years when he is 33 so the CBA won't affect him negatively like it will with Lu, also he was a captain of the team, a young 1st line center in his prime with many great season ahead and brought a solid two way game aswell as leadership. Regardless of if you agree with it or not he wasn't quite as inconsistent as Lu can be at times, and that's coming from a Lu fan and LA hater. Then the return, Schenn was a young player with high upside who wasn't able to crack the roster (similar to where Kadri is now you could say) Simmonds is a obviously a young player who has good upside, and a solid all round game. Carter has a similar contract, it ends at 36 so not quite as long but still a long deal, he is a scoring 1st line center, Columbus wanted to do the band aid work, and paid a decent price to do it, either way Carter was in the prime of his career with many great years ahead. The return, they got Voracek who hadn't exactly set the world on fire and hasn't yet in Philly either, he is young and has alot of tools & high upside no doubt (Im a big Voracek fan myself), but still hasn't scored 20 goal or 50 Points, maybe in the spot Grabner was for us, with a rounded game. Then the 8th overall pick which no one thought would be Couturier, I thought it would be Ryan Murphy myself that's who I had going 8th. Both players were Philly's undoubtably there Franchise players (not that Lu isn't here but:) if they didn't get top return they had no one ready to replace them, no one thought Giroux would explode like he did, and niether was really put out there like Lu is. Luongo on the other hand has a contract that is much worse, and is much more worry-some to take on in terms of the CBA, Lu is also much older than both, we have a replacement in Schneider, Luongo wants out, and we have to move him, so teams have the upperhand in some areas. I still think we will get a pretty decent return, I don't think it will be scraps like King seems to, I just can't see a way we get full value when Luongo needs to go at some point, and with all the other circumstances surrounding it. From all the time I have spent on HF Boards talking to other fans and watching TV, looking on the CPU, exc. I don't see anyway we will get Gardiner, I was hopeful that maybe there was an outside shot after the Burke firing but Nonis's comments today on HC at noon sank those thoughts of optimitism for me, I still think Kadri, Frattin, other prospects, perhaps the 1st are in play aswell as some other roster players, but from Toronto I don't see Gardiner, Rielly, Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Grabovski, exc in play at all. It's not that they aren't more valuable than Lu it is that there are just some players that take a major overpayment to get due to needs, fit in your roster exc. And I guarentee that NYI deal has no possibility of being done, after seeing and Islanders fan (Who really wanted Keith Ballard) say the most he would give up is Aaron Ness and a 3rd, and seeing them praise Brock Nelson, and knowing what I do about Okposo, Hamonic, then seeing how deadly it can be trading top 15 picks when your team isn't ready to make a move like that as we saw with Toronto and Kessel, there is just no way it gets done. It's not that I undervalue Luongo, I can just see (and it is clear as day) that we won't get full value in return, with MG though I am optimistic we will still get a good enough offer that we can be satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerines Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I like the hell out of you oldnews but you overvalue the living crap out of our players. your the guy on kijiji that wants $21,000 for a 96 poniac sunfire with a ground effects kit, spoiler, and ed hardy seat covers just because its awesome to you doesnt make it awesome bro if that trade went through and I was a Flyers fan I would sit in a dark room and cut myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Not necessarily. the top 20 defensemen are alot deeper than the top 20 goaltenders, you could be looking at the 20th in goaltenders being maybe.. Craig Anderson for example, or Corey Crawford, then on the defense side it could be someone like.. Phaneuf, or Brent Burns, or something along those lines, Maybe Kevin Shattenkirk. so is the 20th goalie worth the 20th defensemen? Likely not, then just count it down, the margin of value stays the same until you get to maybe the top 5, depending on who your top 5 is. then around Luongo you have a # of circumstance to consider that impact his value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Holmgren is a guy who just moved two players in exchange for the entire farm. Richards - 12 years, 69 million. Carter - 11 years, 58 million. A pair of guys whose character were being questioned, who were perceived to need a change of scenery. Philly's return - Schenn, Simmonds, Vorachek, Couturier, 2nd, 3rd... Holmgren then watched those two guys compose 2/3 of the 2nd line of a Stanley Cup winning team. He on the other hand still has the farm. He's also watched Bryzgalov melt down to degrees and consistency that Canucks fans can't even fathom. When folks here say we'll never get Couturier, we'll never get Gardiner, we'll never get Reilly, we'll won't get Vorachek, we won't get Schenn, etc etc, essentially you are saying we can't get less than half the value of a Richards or a Carter - a pair of second line players - for (conservatively) a top 15/20 goaltender like Luongo. I think you may want to rethink that, particularly after the landscape has changed the way it has with the new CBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Well that's frankly too much to respond to, but I will say this - your numbers are wrong - Carter will be 37 when his contract expires in 2022, Richards will be 35 in 2020 - and you're talking about skaters - their typical shelf life is easily shorter than goaltenders - and in the case of a guy like Richards who isn't the biggest guy, and plays a bigger game than his frame... In addition, their lifestyles are fairly storied... not exactly tailored for longevity. And I don't particularly care what random posters on HF boards or Leafs.central think...I think for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 dp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noheart Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Holmgren is a guy who just moved two players in exchange for the entire farm. Richards - 12 years, 69 million. Carter - 11 years, 58 million. A pair of guys whose character were being questioned, who were perceived to need a change of scenery. Philly's return - Schenn, Simmonds, Vorachek, Couturier, 2nd, 3rd... Holmgren then watched those two guys compose 2/3 of the 2nd line of a Stanley Cup winning team. He on the other hand still has the farm. He's also watched Bryzgalov melt down to degrees and consistency that Canucks fans can't even fathom. When folks here say we'll never get Couturier, we'll never get Gardiner, we'll never get Reilly, we'll won't get Vorachek, we won't get Schenn, etc etc, essentially you are saying we can't get less than half the value of a Richards or a Carter - a pair of second line players - for (conservatively) a top 15/20 goaltender like Luongo. I think you may want to rethink that, particularly after the landscape has changed the way it has with the new CBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB007 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I was trying to show you some respect since before me "critiquing" (to say the least) your NYI proposal we seemed to agree alot. Anyways the Kaberle situation is alot more comparable to the Richards/Carter trades, Kaberle was percieved to be a very good defensemen who Boston desperately needed (Needed to improve there Powerplay) and Colbourne + 1st + Condiditional 2nd isn't as bad as it looks as first glance, I don't condone the deal cause I thought it was brilliant by Burke aswell, but it is becoming evident as it seems to be clear to me now that Colbourne's upside isn't as high as originally thought (I say 3rd liner myself) then the 1st is 30th and the 2nd was on them winning the cup I believe? So they got that pick which was 60th, and if they hadn't had won it would have been just Joe and the 1st. The Carter/Richards deals are a bit different though. Richards his deal does back dive but his expires when he is 33, it doesn't still have 10 more years when he is 33 so the CBA won't affect him negatively like it will with Lu, also he was a captain of the team, a young 1st line center in his prime with many great season ahead and brought a solid two way game aswell as leadership. Regardless of if you agree with it or not he wasn't quite as inconsistent as Lu can be at times, and that's coming from a Lu fan and LA hater. Then the return, Schenn was a young player with high upside who wasn't able to crack the roster (similar to where Kadri is now you could say) Simmonds is a obviously a young player who has good upside, and a solid all round game. Carter has a similar contract, it ends at 36 so not quite as long but still a long deal, he is a scoring 1st line center, Columbus wanted to do the band aid work, and paid a decent price to do it, either way Carter was in the prime of his career with many great years ahead. The return, they got Voracek who hadn't exactly set the world on fire and hasn't yet in Philly either, he is young and has alot of tools & high upside no doubt (Im a big Voracek fan myself), but still hasn't scored 20 goal or 50 Points, maybe in the spot Grabner was for us, with a rounded game. Then the 8th overall pick which no one thought would be Couturier, I thought it would be Ryan Murphy myself that's who I had going 8th. Both players were Philly's undoubtably there Franchise players (not that Lu isn't here but:) if they didn't get top return they had no one ready to replace them, no one thought Giroux would explode like he did, and niether was really put out there like Lu is. Luongo on the other hand has a contract that is much worse, and is much more worry-some to take on in terms of the CBA, Lu is also much older than both, we have a replacement in Schneider, Luongo wants out, and we have to move him, so teams have the upperhand in some areas. I still think we will get a pretty decent return, I don't think it will be scraps like King seems to, I just can't see a way we get full value when Luongo needs to go at some point, and with all the other circumstances surrounding it. From all the time I have spent on HF Boards talking to other fans and watching TV, looking on the CPU, exc. I don't see anyway we will get Gardiner, I was hopeful that maybe there was an outside shot after the Burke firing but Nonis's comments today on HC at noon sank those thoughts of optimitism for me, I still think Kadri, Frattin, other prospects, perhaps the 1st are in play aswell as some other roster players, but from Toronto I don't see Gardiner, Rielly, Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Grabovski, exc in play at all. It's not that they aren't more valuable than Lu it is that there are just some players that take a major overpayment to get due to needs, fit in your roster exc. And I guarentee that NYI deal has no possibility of being done, after seeing and Islanders fan (Who really wanted Keith Ballard) say the most he would give up is Aaron Ness and a 3rd, and seeing them praise Brock Nelson, and knowing what I do about Okposo, Hamonic, then seeing how deadly it can be trading top 15 picks when your team isn't ready to make a move like that as we saw with Toronto and Kessel, there is just no way it gets done. It's not that I undervalue Luongo, I can just see (and it is clear as day) that we won't get full value in return, with MG though I am optimistic we will still get a good enough offer that we can be satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I don't know if this is pointed at me but I assume it is. Your crazy if you think Carter and Richards are 2nd line players, Carter has struggled and had a few bad years and still put up 30+ goals and 60+ points, Richards on the other hand is a top line 2 way forward, I don't think there is much debating that around the league. Both are younger, both with better contracts (Richards alot better, Carter's only a little better) and don't have the handcuffing circumstances surrounding them like Luongo was, it wasn't all over the News for half a year that they wanted out & that Philly had to move them and that there was a limited market like there is with Lu. They both had higher value than Lu does now, I don't see how it is all that debatable honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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