John Tortorella's track record

[hockeywoot]

I don't mind Torts, just don't think he was a good fit for this team. We could we use some of his passion, yes. But I don't really think his systems are a good fit for this roster.

I still believe, his hiring was the doing of Aquaman rather than MG. Does Torts really strike you as an MGguy?

I'd rather see us move on. (I wonder if Torts was Aquilinni intervention, while Gulutzan was kept in the pipeline should that decision falter. It seems like Gulutzan isn't involved much with this team. Seems like Sullivan talks more during the PP)

I don't have too big of a problem with the shot blocking.

My gripes with the system:

-doesn't emphasize quick transition out of the d-zone

-overly agressive once in o-zone, is prone to ALOT of odd-man rushes

The thing is, we've never been that big, skilled or fast of a team. AV was able to build a system, whichmaximized the strengths of the roster given. Kind of foolish for Torts to blindly insist one having our team play a certain way, without first considering who his personnel are.

[RUPERTKBD]

so your saying AV would have given Jensen time on the first line like Torts did? Your saying Kassian having a great year in his contract year would set us up well in the future?

I think AV is the better coach overall but give credit where credit is due: Torts develops our players better.

I'm not sure how you can make that assertion....he hasn't even been here a full year yet.

Vigneault presided over the development of guys like Tanev, Burrows, Bieksa and Hansen.

Saying that he wouldn't have put Jensen in a position to succeed is nothing but baseless speculation. Jensen got time on the first line this year because either Danny or Hank was out with injury. However, if you mean that by putting the twins in situations where they were more likely to be injured (thus leaving room for younger players to take their spots) then yes, it was a good "developmental" move by Torts.

Meanwhile in NYC, Chris Kreider is having a very good season after spending much of the past two stuck in JT's doghouse.

Torts in NOT the main problem in this team. When you look back the previous 2-3 seasons, It's obvious this team is going in a downhill spiral. Has lots to do with our core group getting older, injuries, luck, roster.

You'll have to point out to me where I say that he's the "main" problem with the team.

What I said was that he has to take his share of the blame, a statement that I stand behind.

And yes, the team was and is on the decline. However, it does not excuse the brutal streak of play that started on New Years and lasted more than a calendar month. In decline or not, this team should be at least a wild card contender. That fact that they aren't this season, means that the coach didn't get the most out of his players. This was a major criticism of the past coaching regime and something that should have improved this season.

It didn't.

[THERETOOL]

Torts is a narcissist .. simple as that .. Good coach who cannot control his ego and fault self..

I dont think he even knows he's doing it .. Its all about him , and this will be the final nail in his coffin ..

too bad too .. cause I think he makes the nhl a much more interesting place .. he might have suited wrestling more ..

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

I don't know. AV got 6 years and Torts is in his first year. In a year where MG basically painted himself in the corner and the league was re-structuring it's financial plan where if they are not planning on giving him time to work with they should have signed a coach to a 1 year deal as a stop gap. He deserves and needs better players. This team right now is not getting much better with a new coach.

100% agree that the 2013-14 Canucks starting roster was not strong enough to compete over an entire NHL season.

There were missing/inadequate parts in some of the key positions and the overall depth was far too thin for this team to survive through injuries and/or slumps.

Any and every coach in the NHL, past or present, would likely have struggled behind the bench with this season's Vancouver Canucks. I'm just not sure that all of them would have struggled as mightily as John Tortorella.

Anyone who was being realistic knew that the 2013-14 Vancouver Canucks were going to have a tough time competing in this league. The cap reduction, coupled with the team having tied-up the majority of their cap space in existing deals, made it nearly impossible to make the roster improvements that this team needed.

Gillis barely managed to flesh out a full roster that could fit under the new $64.3 million Upper Limit.

GMMG scored big wins with bargain acquisitions like Santorelli, Richardson, and Stanton (and to a lesser degree, the Dalpe/Welsh deal), and for a while, the team played well enough to distract most eyes from their depth issues. Once injuries started to hit, and players started to slump (or their performances returned to normal levels--ie: Santo), the thinness of the roster became exposed.

The Canucks, as constructed for 2013-14, were bound to struggle down the stretch.

I don't think anyone believes that the full responsibility for this season's failures should be placed on John Tortorella.

That all said, I really think that Torts (mostly due to his systems) has made the situation worse than it needed to be. I don't know if a "better" coach would have made a huge difference--this team was never going to be contender this season (and I believe that management was only looking to "survive" 2013-14 and then build toward competing in future seasons). But I do think that "better" coach (ie: one using systems better suited to the current personnel) might have been able to do more with these players (even with the injuries and setbacks) and would have likely steered this team to 7th or 8th place in the Western Conference.

Even so, barring a Cinderella run, it would have likely been another 1st round exit.

So ultimately, not much has been lost this year (other than some playoff receipts for the owners).

In a way, I'm grateful to Torts because he's made it easier for Gillis to start making the roster adjustments that are needed. This season's disappointments have paved the way for a smoother transition by whetting the fans' appetites for some real change.

I believe that GMMG always intended to start re-tooling this roster after 2013-14. What shape that re-tooling was going to take was the real question. I think that this season has made it possible for Gillis to cut deeper into the roster than he would have been able to do if the Canucks made the playoffs.

I think an ever bigger question is how committed Gillis is to the idea of including Torts in his long term plans for this team (and what kind of influence ownership, the fans, and the media will have in these plans unfold).

I truly believe that this team will perform better over 2014-15 season, possibly much better. And I think they can be quite a bit better even if Torts (and his assistants) remain in their positions. What I question is whether or not this team can be at its best if it's still playing the systems that Torts has forced on this group of players.

I strongly feel that there have to be some significant adjustments made on the coaching side of things. Either this comes in the form of a new coaching staff or from the old staff re-thinking their approach to this team. I don't believe that Gillis could ever change the personnel enough (barring a complete rebuild that includes moving the Sedins) to make them a contender while still playing "Torts Hockey: Version 2013-14."

The roster needs changes but the coaching needs to change as well.

Without some adjustments to Torts' approach and systems, I really believe that a roster re-tool (even if Gillis made all of the "right" moves) would not be successful (or at least not as successful as it could ultimately be).

Does that mean that I think Torts needs to go?

Not if he can make the necessary adjustments (and he can make them fast enough). The question is how difficult it will be for Torts to change how he looks at this team.

Gillis (and Gilman) appear to use a team-building strategy that is largely rooted in analytics. Management seems to almost reduce the players down to data sets and makes acquisitions based on how they believe that player additions will ultimately impact the net competitiveness of the team. The only exception to this rule is the Sedins (and formerly Luongo), with nearly every other player considered to be a part to the whole.

This type of team building can be very successful when it's paired with a coaching strategy that includes systems that also draw heavily on analytics. Burrows' big quote from today shows how AV was well-suited to this approach (and Torts possibly isn't):

"With Alain, I felt like his decisions were more rational, based on the past or statistics, where Torts is a little more just gut feeling. He'll tell you: 'I got a feeling in my stomach and that's how I'm going to shape my lineup, or call this play.' So that's probably the biggest difference."

Old school coaching based on "gut feelings" doesn't marry well to new school management based in analytics. The reason "moneyball" and advanced stats can be beneficial is that they provide useful information that often runs contrary to the best "gut feelings." AV understood this very well.

Vigneault designed systems based on detailed analysis of the Canucks player personnel. This was the foundation to his coaching approach. Zone matching, controlled icetime/usage, role specialization--these were the greatest innovations that AV brought to the Canucks. "Gut feelings" and in-game coaching adjustments were secondary to this primary foundation in personnel-based systems.

I actually think that Torts has very good intuition and his "gut feelings" are often correct. His in-game coaching, in terms of making adjustments and staying on top of the pulse of the team, are likely superior to Vigneault's. Where Torts has been a downgrade is in how he analyses the team personnel and designs an underlying system of play.

It's been said over and over this week (and for months really): Torts' biggest mistake with the 2013-14 Canucks was trying to "mould a team to his system" instead of "moulding his system" to the player personnel he was actually given.

Vigneault said as much in his quotes today:

"You definitely have to tailor your coaching to the team you have and the personnel that you have," Vigneault said when asked if he runs the Rangers the same way he ran the Canucks. "I don't have the same personnel now. There are things that are similar, but it's a different team.

"This group is different and I'm handling it different. You have to. Every time you change a piece of the team, the dynamics change. You've got to adjust and that's what I'm trying to do there."

And Torts would be well served by giving these words some careful consideration.

In a fair world, Tortorella would be given another year to show what he can do with the Canucks. 2013-14 has been a nightmare season with several factors that were completely outside of the coach's control.

As far as the factors that were coaching-related, Torts probably deserves the opportunity to make adjustments to his system and how he approaches and utilizes the player personnel. He also deserves to be given the chance to (hopefully) enjoy the benefits of coaching a deeper and stronger roster (assuming this season's crippling injuries aren't repeated and that GMMG does his job and upgrades the playing roster and overall team depth).

But it's not a fair world, especially for head coaches in the NHL.

That said, the ultimate saving grace for Torts might come from ownership's reluctance to part ways with the $8 million payout that remains on the contract of their current head coach.

While the Aquilinis have never held the purse-strings too tightly when it comes to the team's budget--they have been consistently willing to spend to compete--they are also a family that seems to be philosophically opposed to paying money for "nothing" and they have been generally loath to consider the use of buyouts (even when they might help the team).

As reactive as this ownership can be, they might decide to be patient on the coaching issue (at least for a little while).

We won't have to wait too long to find out.

But the death watch is certainly on for Torts' coaching career in Vancouver, especially in the local media.

Yesterday it was The Province (Ed Willes) and today it's the Vancouver Sun (Iain MacIntyre):

You can blame Tortorella for a system ill-suited to his players, which it is, but not for misleading anyone. He has been honest. To a fault, it turns out. Owner Francesco Aquilini and general manager Mike Gillis hired Tortorella with eyes wide open. How did they think he was going to coach?

Still, the coach is the one who looks like a goner. And when he goes, it will be a little like the Calgary Flames firing Mike Keenan a few years ago and complaining that the coach's team lacked structure. Just like every team Keenan coached lacked structure.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Canucks+Game+Vancouver+faces+stern+test+Avalanche+revival/9669059/story.html#ixzz2xefwjq6o

[Guest]

Reality check: This team wasn't going to make the playoffs regardless of who was behind the bench. Why? Because this team sucks. It has been declining for 3 years now and is only going to get worse unless the core is blown up.

[elvis15]

Reality check: This team wasn't going to make the playoffs regardless of who was behind the bench. Why? Because this team sucks. It has been declining for 3 years now and is only going to get worse unless the core is blown up.

I feel like you enjoy hyperbole.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

It's been said over and over this week (and for months really): Torts' biggest mistake with the 2013-14 Canucks was trying to "mould a team to his system" instead of "moulding his system" to the player personnel he was actually given.

Vigneault said as much in his quotes today:

“You definitely have to tailor what you do to the team that you have, the personnel that you have,” said Vigneault. “I don’t have the same personnel now. There are some things that we do similar but it’s a different team. We play a good game, north-south. We’ve got good speed on our team and we use that speed to defend and to generate some good offence when the opportunity is there.”

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Canucks+Game+Vancouver+faces+stern+test+Avalanche+revival/9669059/story.html#ixzz2xefwjq6o

Glad AV understands how to coach.

As noted in this thread it takes Torts 4 years to start seeing success. Meanwhile AV in his first year with us won the Jack adams award. The main reason is what AV just stated above. AV makes special systems according to the players he has while Torts has one system that needs certain players to be effective.

Right now we don't have those players.

So there will be some tough tweener years before this team gets there, they might even not get there, only time will tell.

I will leave you a quote from AV

“Some teams progress and some fade away,” said Vigneault, who declined to comment on the Canucks’ circumstances but was speaking about the Rangers’ first-half struggles. “We have progressed.”

[5Fivehole0]

Torts is a narcissist .. simple as that .. Good coach who cannot control his ego and fault self..

I dont think he even knows he's doing it .. Its all about him , and this will be the final nail in his coffin ..

too bad too .. cause I think he makes the nhl a much more interesting place .. he might have suited wrestling more ..

This has to be the most ignorant comment I've seen on Torts... He blames himself for Calgary, he has blamed himself for putting the wrong line out at times... I don't understand where you get this idea from...

[Goal:thecup]

AV fit the system to the personnel and they did not win the Cup; the last couple years they could not even win a round in the playoffs.

JT was brought in to change the personnel to a system that can win the Cup.

It's a process that looks gruesome at present but you need the team to be able to play like Stanley Cup Champions.

Gillis has been loading the development system with players that may learn to play this way.

[THERETOOL]

This has to be the most ignorant comment I've seen on Torts... He blames himself for Calgary, he has blamed himself for putting the wrong line out at times... I don't understand where you get this idea from...

NO ... THIS has to be the most ignorant comment Ive seen on torts ... HE SHOULD BLAME HIMSELF ~!! HE DID IT !!! he cannot control himself ... he proves it over and over again with his actions on and off the rink ..

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

AV fit the system to the personnel and they did not win the Cup; the last couple years they could not even win a round in the playoffs.

JT was brought in to change the personnel to a system that can win the Cup.

It's a process that looks gruesome at present but you need the team to be able to play like Stanley Cup Champions.

Gillis has been loading the development system with players that may learn to play this way.

I agree with everything except that. MG was stupid in 2011 to call out the refs, sure it got us into the finals but ever since then it has gotten worse since he called it out. It also cost us some series as the players were mentally distracted. Same happened after the 7 minute 5 on 3's in back to back California games. The team has been on a terrible slide ever since.

[TommiSantala25]

Honestly, just a ridiculously frustrating year for him. It's hard to change the culture of a team, and moreso when the players you depend on and trust are constantly getting injured.

This statement is somewhat skewed though. Torts system promotes injuries, so for him to have success he needs his players to be healthy? I think we all agree that answer is yes. To be healthy they have to play in a system that allows them to stay fresh and out of vulnerable situations? Also a yes there. His system is entirely what is wrong with the durability of our team. He asks too much of his top line players even if blocking shots and such isn't their forte. You'll notice elsewhere that they may run a defensive system but it is nowhere as defensive as Torts. In his system he allows for no creativity and as a young player I would hate that! The reason young players like Schroeder and Corrado won't thrive here is because they do things too outside of what Torts system calls for. He will ruin players careers with how boring his style is. In the past week or so he has allowed them to play more wide open and less defensive, it has also resulted in wins like he allowed at the start of the year.

I for one realize this, but it seems a lot of people are still caught up in the Torts talk and all his lingo making him seem like a big man. Brooksy was always questioning him and Torts hated that, because in reality Brooksy wrote things horribly but he was right.

[BI3KSA-]

This statement is somewhat skewed though. Torts system promotes injuries, so for him to have success he needs his players to be healthy? I think we all agree that answer is yes. To be healthy they have to play in a system that allows them to stay fresh and out of vulnerable situations? Also a yes there. His system is entirely what is wrong with the durability of our team. He asks too much of his top line players even if blocking shots and such isn't their forte. You'll notice elsewhere that they may run a defensive system but it is nowhere as defensive as Torts. In his system he allows for no creativity and as a young player I would hate that! The reason young players like Schroeder and Corrado won't thrive here is because they do things too outside of what Torts system calls for. He will ruin players careers with how boring his style is. In the past week or so he has allowed them to play more wide open and less defensive, it has also resulted in wins like he allowed at the start of the year.

I for one realize this, but it seems a lot of people are still caught up in the Torts talk and all his lingo making him seem like a big man. Brooksy was always questioning him and Torts hated that, because in reality Brooksy wrote things horribly but he was right.

That's BS, he's said time and time again that he doesn't mess with the offensive players creativity in the offensive zone whatsoever. Just cause he wants his players to play proper defense doesn't mean "there is no room for creativity". Strong offensive players who can't play defense equates to Edmonton. I'd like to add that the vast majority of our injuries had nothing to do with the TOI the players are receiving (the TOI isn't even that much higher, or not higher at all, for most of our players, in comparison to AV). Lastly, he didn't seem to have a hard time molding the very young core of that Tampa cup winning team when he was there, so I don't buy for a second that he is bad for our kids. People get caught up in a bunch of crap the media spew about the guy and just run with it.

[RU SERIOUS]

Tortelini has destroyed this team. MG is the henchman behind it all - taking the easy street and signing past glory players until retirement rather than "cash-out" asset players and upgrade. His list of screw-ups is too long to list here and we all know what they are. Bottom line - He needs to be held accountable like all of us would be in most jobs. He has hog-tied this team with his no trade clause Christmas presents for the next 3 years and now we will have to wait until the next GM can work thru those and then the rebuild will begin - no sooner - no matter what BS we are told. Facts are facts and 71.3% of the Canucks money is tied-up" with these no trade players leaving minimal reserves to replace a few of the 4th line plumbers. Are only hope before then is that one or two of the golden boys agree to a move and break their contract. What a mess! Perhaps when the seats are empty next year - Aqualini will wake-up and fire MG before he hands out another 10 no trade contracts to the remainder of the 3rd and 4th line players and stick boy.

[elvis15]

You know, sarcasm doesn't get old, but the tripe that some people spew out certainly does. Overstating the negative and ignoring the positive is the most overused ploy on CDC, only slightly ahead of the opposite. At least the opposite is positive.

[aGENT]

You know, sarcasm doesn't get old, but the tripe that some people spew out certainly does. Overstating the negative and ignoring the positive is the most overused ploy on CDC, only slightly ahead of the opposite. At least the opposite is positive.

Homer! Gillis nut-hugger!

[Mackcanuck]

You know, sarcasm doesn't get old, but the tripe that some people spew out certainly does. Overstating the negative and ignoring the positive is the most overused ploy on CDC, only slightly ahead of the opposite. At least the opposite is positive.

Elvis, could you please state the positive, right now I am having trouble finding much.

It seems that almost all of our players are having their worst season in their careers under Tortorella.

[elvis15]

Elvis, could you please state the positive, right now I am having trouble finding much.

It seems that almost all of our players are having their worst season in their careers under Tortorella.

Should I just link you to the majority of my posts in all the threads on Gillis (which is really what the post I replied to was about), or can you find them yourself?

I guess I should have known better when the post starts by calling Torts "Tortelini" though.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

That's BS, he's said time and time again that he doesn't mess with the offensive players creativity in the offensive zone whatsoever. Just cause he wants his players to play proper defense doesn't mean "there is no room for creativity". Strong offensive players who can't play defense equates to Edmonton. I'd like to add that the vast majority of our injuries had nothing to do with the TOI the players are receiving (the TOI isn't even that much higher, or not higher at all, for most of our players, in comparison to AV). Lastly, he didn't seem to have a hard time molding the very young core of that Tampa cup winning team when he was there, so I don't buy for a second that he is bad for our kids. People get caught up in a bunch of crap the media spew about the guy and just run with it.

You realize it's not the TOI that matters its the quality of competition you face and the offensive zone starts. That's whats causing all these injuries to our top line

[RUPERTKBD]

I just think that this nightmare season can't end soon enough for Torts. Watching his reaction after St. Louis' shorty last night basically said it all.

Frustration with the play by Weber, but understanding that it came from a place where YW was so desperate to make a play, he made an ill-advised gamble.

The look on JT's face said it all: "What else can go wrong?"

I think the entire team (Torts included) needs to put this season behind them.