oldnews Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 i will also say there a lot downplaying the value of a top pick as in i'd rather find someone at 28 that will play with heart sort of thing. i may be wrong about the chances of van getting into a top pick situation but making statements like the one i have referred to is jes plain dumb What is dumb is the concept that you play entire seasons with the goal of a high pick. What you're also ignoring is the fact that 9 other teams have top 10 picks. How far ahead are you in the end? Same with the concept of targetting a high pick in a deep draft. Newsflash - in a deep draft, a whole lot of franchises will be selecting players to add to their franchises. You seem to be assuming that Jake Virtanen alone is going to propel such a difference in the franchise relative to it's competitors that the value of such a high pick is a no-brainer.... Problem being that other franchises have landed Reinhart, while already strong franchises have added players like Schmaltz, Kapanen, Kempe, Honka... High picks don't guarantee a bloody thing. Not only that, but only time will tell whether the best picks in this draft turn out to be Julius Honka at 14 or Kasperi Kapanen at 22. People love to ride their optimism - that every Bryan Allen will turn out to be a franchise player - but it just doesn't pan out that way, and regardless, the goal of attaining such picks - in any other way than trading up - is by using losing to try to get ahead. In some of our perspectives, it's a losing strategy. So you make haste at every step - cut deals that makes sense, and take advantage of free agency at every sensible opportunity - which is what Benning is doing - and I for one may not have agreed wholeheartedly with every single move (or non-move - but could certainly be wrong about those as well in the end) but the approach/process/strategy is one I am entirely in agreement with, and the sum of the moves I am thrilled with as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 What is dumb is the concept that you play entire seasons with the goal of a high pick. What you're also ignoring is the fact that 9 other teams have top 10 picks. How far ahead are you in the end? Same with the concept of targetting a high pick in a deep draft. Newsflash - in a deep draft, a whole lot of franchises will be selecting players to add to their franchises. You seem to be assuming that Jake Virtanen alone is going to propel such a difference in the franchise relative to it's competitors that the value of such a high pick is a no-brainer.... Problem being that other franchises have landed Reinhart, while already strong franchises have added players like Schmaltz, Kapanen, Kempe, Honka... High picks don't guarantee a bloody thing. Not only that, but only time will tell whether the best picks in this draft turn out to be Julius Honka at 14 or Kasperi Kapanen at 22. People love to ride their optimism - that every Bryan Allen will turn out to be a franchise player - but it just doesn't pan out that way, and regardless, the goal of attaining such picks - in any other way than trading up - is by using losing to try to get ahead. In some of our perspectives, it's a losing strategy. So you make haste at every step - cut deals that makes sense, and take advantage of free agency at every sensible opportunity - which is what Benning is doing - and I for one may not have agreed wholeheartedly with every single move (or non-move - but could certainly be wrong about those as well in the end) but the approach/process/strategy is one I am entirely in agreement with, and the sum of the moves I am thrilled with as well. Exactly this. This whole "tanking" thing is nonsense. Whether organization are intentionally tanking or just suck outright, this is not a plan that is worth attempting. It's been said countless times, but look at Edmonton. While I'm sure Yakupov can still become a legitimate top player; in hindsight, how much do you want to bet they wish they traded down to get a defenseman like Jacob Trouba, who was taken 9th overall? The draft is an absolute crap shoot. While the top 3 players are usually locks, that doesn't mean a player taken lower is going to be awful. It's all in how they are developed. And certainly developing in a winning environment counts for something (see Detroit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Grabner on this team would be a top 6 winger for us if we didn't let him go. It was either him or Mason Raymond as both were virtually the same type of player. Very fast skaters and both have a great shot. Unfortunately, we chose Raymond cuz of his 25 goal season and was expecting him to repeat the same offensive output, which obviously never happened. Grabner hasn't really done much over the last few season to justify top 6 on our roster. In fact in the last two season Hansen has put up the exact same offensive numbers. Hansen also has provided us with better PK and deffensive abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benchsplinters Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 as i said and for you too chalky, plan a is to win. they might bounce back but if this team is well out of it near trade deadline why wouldn't you go to plan b : unload some vets for prospects/picks? a lot of you nay 'tankers' seem to have very little capacity for comprehension. it is embarrasing No it is embarrassing to know that all too many people in our world today will set aside integrity to fill a fault or void in their moral character. Then you have the audacity to suggest those who choose to play it straight in life do not understand that it is okay to cheat a little. There is something wrong in the moral fibre of that picture and I hope that it doesn't/didn't get passed on to others who are impressionable. What does a person have left if he cannot be trusted, he sacrifices integrity for self fulfillment and can be seen as dishonest. All I can say further to your absurd post and this misplaced philosophy in life is "WOW." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Exactly this. This whole "tanking" thing is nonsense. Whether organization are intentionally tanking or just suck outright, this is not a plan that is worth attempting. It's been said countless times, but look at Edmonton. While I'm sure Yakupov can still become a legitimate top player; in hindsight, how much do you want to bet they wish they traded down to get a defenseman like Jacob Trouba, who was taken 9th overall? The draft is an absolute crap shoot. While the top 3 players are usually locks, that doesn't mean a player taken lower is going to be awful. It's all in how they are developed. And certainly developing in a winning environment counts for something (see Detroit). Yes, and Detroit is the perfect example of a team that, since 1991, has had one 19th overall, one 20th overall, and this year, at 15th overall, their highest pick in 23 years. Haven't exactly been a franchise wallowing in tweener-ville all those years, have they? There are certainly other ways of getting it done, aside from depending upon top 10 picks. Retooling on the fly isn't without positive examples either. The Anaheim Ducks are another example of a team (everyone around here wants to be like, but, ironically) built on primarily late round picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I don’t get this notion that getting a first overall pick guarantees this team a Stanley cup. The odds that the first overall pick equates to a Stanley cup is a lot less than people would think. Only 3 teams that have drafted a first overall pick have went on to win a cup in the last 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Grabner hasn't really done much over the last few season to justify top 6 on our roster. In fact in the last two season Hansen has put up the exact same offensive numbers. Hansen also has provided us with better PK and deffensive abilities. People like to conveniently forget that Grabner was actually waived by the team he was dealt to. The Florida Panthers concluded that he wasn't worth keeping around (Bernier was also waived by them) - so the whining about the acquisition of Ballard (who suffered a couple very serious injuries here) and loss of Grabner isn't without it's additional context and ironies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benchsplinters Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 oh and i suppose many of you will close your eyes whenever virtanen is on the eyes. as someone said, those couple of key year end losses enabled us to get this very promising prospect. I am surprised you actually scored a "2" for this silly comment. Goes to show there is more than one of you around who foolishly believe it is okay to be dishonest as long as it gets what you want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benchsplinters Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I dont get this notion that getting a first overall pick guarantees this team a Stanley cup. The odds that the first overall pick equates to a Stanley cup is a lot less than people would think. Only 3 teams that have drafted a first overall pick have went on to win a cup in the last 20 years. There is no guarantee that you will get the first pick even if you do tank. I wonder if the "let's tank" supporters would bet their lives on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benchsplinters Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Yes, and Detroit is the perfect example of a team that, since 1991, has had one 19th overall, one 20th overall, and this year, at 15th overall, their highest pick in 23 years. Haven't exactly been a franchise wallowing in tweener-ville all those years, have they? There are certainly other ways of getting it done, aside from depending upon top 10 picks. Retooling on the fly isn't without positive examples either. The Anaheim Ducks are another example of a team (everyone around here wants to be like, but, ironically) built on primarily late round picks. You are amazing me with your common sense and perception "Old news." Keep it up. It is a breath of fresh air from the posts in support of tanking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogbyte Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Let me know when you figure out how hockey in Canada works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benchsplinters Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Sorry folks I am out of here. I have taken up the whole page of this thread having at "granpappy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpappy Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share Posted July 14, 2014 No it is embarrassing to know that all too many people in our world today will set aside integrity to fill a fault or void in their moral character. Then you have the audacity to suggest those who choose to play it straight in life do not understand that it is okay to cheat a little. There is something wrong in the moral fibre of that picture and I hope that it doesn't/didn't get passed on to others who are impressionable. What does a person have left if he cannot be trusted, he sacrifices integrity for self fulfillment and can be seen as dishonest. All I can say further to your absurd post and this misplaced philosophy in life is "WOW." here we go again . . . every year there are sellers at the deadline. now if i happen to believe vancouver should be a seller to pick up prospects/picks in the event they are out of the playoff race i am lacking in integrity, suffering from a void of morality, a cheater and a risk of corrupting the impressionable, i cannot be trusted, am self fulfilling and dishonest. i almost don't know what to say. you really have condemned the whole of the nhl, sports in general and a great many in the fanbase who have and will in the future look toward the drafting of young and exciting athletes onto their respective teams. perhaps you should canvass gary betman and request for a legislation outlawing this outlandish and preposterous notion of trading players between teams. i just wish all of you would re-read this thread with objectivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpappy Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share Posted July 14, 2014 actually why don't we just do away with the draft completely. or reverse the order: the best teams pick first. that way the struggling teams will see the light and develop a detroit type 'model' picking up diamonds in the rough. it will also improve their moral fibre and cause those within their organizations to become better contributers to society Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benchsplinters Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 here we go again . . . every year there are sellers at the deadline. now if i happen to believe vancouver should be a seller to pick up prospects/picks in the event they are out of the playoff race i am lacking in integrity, suffering from a void of morality, a cheater and a risk of corrupting the impressionable, i cannot be trusted, am self fulfilling and dishonest. i almost don't know what to say. you really have condemned the whole of the nhl, sports in general and a great many in the fanbase who have and will in the future look toward the drafting of young and exciting athletes onto their respective teams. perhaps you should canvass gary betman and request for a legislation outlawing this outlandish and preposterous notion of trading players between teams. i just wish all of you would re-read this thread with objectivity. I did not misread your text about tanking. You fully support the concept at that is what I take issue with. This was not about trades and drafting as you now try to suggest. It is funny how all of us got the wrong interpretation isn't it? I have said what I am going to say. There is nothing more to add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benchsplinters Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 actually why don't we just do away with the draft completely. or reverse the order: the best teams pick first. that way the struggling teams will see the light and develop a detroit type 'model' picking up diamonds in the rough. it will also improve their moral fibre and cause those within their organizations to become better contributers to society You tripped on your sword and got called out for it. Stop trying to justify why you are off base with this matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Let me know when you figure out how hockey in Canada works.How's that? A whole bunch of futility? Or a bunch of blind fanbases? Or how they see their talent funnelling down south and refuse to believe that our teams could very well continue to stink? Or how about accepting things like 'we will not get McDavid. Eichel. etc.' because we've submitted to the 'fact' that the south gets the good prospects too? Or how 'the Calgary approach' to rebuilding, ie. failure to acknowledge it, is strangely viewed as being a good approach? Or how that Edmonton's rebuild, the poorest example, is viewed as the only example of rebuilding up here? Edit: Actually i'm not even following the context of what you're saying. Just venting. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Sharks should have traded Joe instead of re-signing him and went with Couture/Pavelski as their top-6 Cs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadcanucks Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Looks like we have an Angelo Mosca - Joe Kapp incident brewing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadcanucks Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 this is out of the San Jose Mercury News: "I can understand when people say there are different types of rebuild," he said. "We're not going to finish last to try and draft people first or second. This is not something this franchise can do, because we already have some good players in key positions. You're not going to see us with 50 points next year -- we're too good a team for that." so he can understand there are different types of rebuilds. he says the sharks cannot try to finish last and the reason he gives is because they still have a very good team. so if he has thought about it, he must have given it a consideration. i would hope that jb, being the thorough gm we all hope he is, has also assessed hsi team and at least calculated the chances of where they might pick next year. he has made moves. there are some here that have literally guaranteed these moves will pan out. again unbelieveable. why play the games then. we will make the playoffs. all you confident homers, how much of your own cold hard cash would you put down on it? really, how much? i'm sorry to infer that anyone might be a gambler. i'm not. it seems here that you are or are not a fan based on the choice of direction you may wish for the team to go on their way to hopefully winning a SC. maybe the size of bet you would be willing to make on making the playoffs next yr might be a better indicator and make it a little more clear how big a fan you really are Quick, everyone...hide your evidence. Granpappy the super-sleuth, king of CSI is on the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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