Bo Horvat | #53 | C

[CanuckleHorse]

Hope we sign him before some team throw a huge contract at him it is possible why wouldn't you it's not like you can get a Horvat in the draft anytime soon!

[Tre Mac]

Thank god for Bo otherwise this era would be darker than the Keenan days.  Thanks Bo!

[HorvatToBaertschi]

So I was having a stroll on calgary puck because I wanted their take on the Tkachuk suspension, and I happened to see a Vancouver hate thread. First of all, nothing but class I assure you.....

Well that's not why im here. 

Im here because someone on there posted that no single canuck could "hold tkachuks jock strap" or something like that and it got me wondering....

Does this league know who Bo is? 

I mean I dont see a single player on calgary more complete, or more essential to a cup winning team, than Horvat. 

Monahan is fantastic for sure, I would love him on my team, but I don't even know if Id do a 1 for 1 for horvat.... it wouldn't take much to add but still.

Then you have gaudreau who is a phenomenal 1 dimensional player, who I would despise having in thé playoffs against the sharks, Kings,  blues , hawks, wild etc... because of the physical intensity of the post season...

I mean he's an elite player, but pass.

Then you have giordano who is an all star defensemen, but Im not entirely sold on him either. Hes amazing but I mean I wouldn't trade Horvat 1 for 1 either...

So all this to say, 

Horvat >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tkachuk 

And Vancouver >>>>>>> Calgary

 

Funny side note, Kiprusoff and the 2004 run is the reason I started playing hockey.

 

[-AJ-]

50 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

So I was having a stroll on calgary puck because I wanted their take on the Tkachuk suspension, and I happened to see a Vancouver hate thread. First of all, nothing but class I assure you.....

Well that's not why im here. 

Im here because someone on there posted that no single canuck could "hold tkachuks jock strap" or something like that and it got me wondering....

Does this league know who Bo is? 

I mean I dont see a single player on calgary more complete, or more essential to a cup winning team, than Horvat. 

Monahan is fantastic for sure, I would love him on my team, but I don't even know if Id do a 1 for 1 for horvat.... it wouldn't take much to add but still.

Then you have gaudreau who is a phenomenal 1 dimensional player, who I would despise having in thé playoffs against the sharks, Kings,  blues , hawks, wild etc... because of the physical intensity of the post season...

I mean he's an elite player, but pass.

Then you have giordano who is an all star defensemen, but Im not entirely sold on him either. Hes amazing but I mean I wouldn't trade Horvat 1 for 1 either...

So all this to say, 

Horvat >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tkachuk 

And Vancouver >>>>>>> Calgary

 

Funny side note, Kiprusoff and the 2004 run is the reason I started playing hockey.

 

I get the feeling that Horvat has been underrated his entire career and continues to be. He was drafted with the expectations of being a third line centre, with 2nd line peak potential. He's now already at least at 2nd line quality and is on the cusp of already being a capable 1st line player at just 22 years old. An Oiler fan and friend of mine said that we're in trouble if Horvat is our long-term No. 1 guy. He'll be underrated until he starts scoring highlight reel goals ever other night against their top defensemen, then maybe they'll think higher of him.

[Boudrias]

I'm hoping that Bo, Tanev and Hutton head back to World's this spring. I would be surprised if Horvat is not invited.

[-AJ-]

34 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

I'm hoping that Bo, Tanev and Hutton head back to World's this spring. I would be surprised if Horvat is not invited.

Agreed, though I'm not sure Hutton makes the team. I think he was on it last year though, so he still definitely has a shot provided not too many other star defenders want to play.

 

Did Horvat not make the team last year? I forget the circumstances.

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

On 3/13/2017 at 4:46 PM, ajhockey said:

As far as I know, he's not the sole alternate captain. He's on the rotation with Tanev and Edler I think. He might get it next season.

 

I'm also curious to see how he does with more consistent time against top defenders. We've seen him badly deke out stars before like Hedman, but consistency is the key here.

Brandon Sutter has wore it twice as well.

[-AJ-]

Just now, CRAZY_4_NAZZY said:

Brandon Sutter has wore it twice as well.

Makes sense considering he wore it full-time for the Penguins I believe.

[JM_]

OK so @oldnews asked me to dig deeper on the assumption that Bo isn't getting enough shifts in the last 5 minutes of games. I've gone back and had a look at the games since the 5 day break to see if there's a pattern (if someone see's an error pls let me know, i'm not trying to jig the stats).

 

So... its interesting. He is getting shifts - av of 3 in the last 5 minutes since the break. But (there is always one eh?) he isn't getting many LAST shifts. When I checked the shift charts you can see who was on the ice for the last shift, and Bo was only out on the ice for 4/12 games on the last shift. 

 

So maybe whats going on here is people aren't seeing Bo out there when the game ends, and are thinking they haven't seen him for much of the last few minutes? 

 

Certainly I'd like to see Bo out there a bit more at the end of games and be there when the clock is winding down for scoring chances, but its not like he's totally absent either. 

 

So I think this one is a bit of a media creation. 

 

 

 

 

Date	vs	shifts in last 5 min	last shift of game	W/L
Mar 21	CHI	2	0	L
18	OIL	3	0	L
16	DAL	5	1	L
13	BOS	3	1	L
11	PIT	3	0	L
9	NYI	3	1	OTL
7	MTL	4	1	OTL
5	ANA	2	0	W
4	LA	3	0	W
2	SJ	2	0	L
Feb 28	DET	5	0	OTL
25	SJ	3	0	L
		38	4
		3.2

[Boudrias]

56 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

OK so @oldnews asked me to dig deeper on the assumption that Bo isn't getting enough shifts in the last 5 minutes of games. I've gone back and had a look at the games since the 5 day break to see if there's a pattern (if someone see's an error pls let me know, i'm not trying to jig the stats).

 

So... its interesting. He is getting shifts - av of 3 in the last 5 minutes since the break. But (there is always one eh?) he isn't getting many LAST shifts. When I checked the shift charts you can see who was on the ice for the last shift, and Bo was only out on the ice for 4/12 games on the last shift. 

 

So maybe whats going on here is people aren't seeing Bo out there when the game ends, and are thinking they haven't seen him for much of the last few minutes? 

 

Certainly I'd like to see Bo out there a bit more at the end of games and be there when the clock is winding down for scoring chances, but its not like he's totally absent either. 

 

So I think this one is a bit of a media creation. 

 

 

 

 

Date	vs	shifts in last 5 min	last shift of game	W/L
Mar 21	CHI	2	0	L
18	OIL	3	0	L
16	DAL	5	1	L
13	BOS	3	1	L
11	PIT	3	0	L
9	NYI	3	1	OTL
7	MTL	4	1	OTL
5	ANA	2	0	W
4	LA	3	0	W
2	SJ	2	0	L
Feb 28	DET	5	0	OTL
25	SJ	3	0	L
		38	4
		3.2

40 second shifts which might be a tad long would yield 7.5 shifts in 5 minutes. If the 4th line was being sat out it would amount to roughly 2 shifts per line. Anymore than 2 shifts and the player is getting extra TOI. It appears that Bo is getting extra ice not less.

[-AJ-]

1 hour ago, S'all Good Man said:

OK so @oldnews asked me to dig deeper on the assumption that Bo isn't getting enough shifts in the last 5 minutes of games. I've gone back and had a look at the games since the 5 day break to see if there's a pattern (if someone see's an error pls let me know, i'm not trying to jig the stats).

 

So... its interesting. He is getting shifts - av of 3 in the last 5 minutes since the break. But (there is always one eh?) he isn't getting many LAST shifts. When I checked the shift charts you can see who was on the ice for the last shift, and Bo was only out on the ice for 4/12 games on the last shift. 

 

So maybe whats going on here is people aren't seeing Bo out there when the game ends, and are thinking they haven't seen him for much of the last few minutes? 

 

Certainly I'd like to see Bo out there a bit more at the end of games and be there when the clock is winding down for scoring chances, but its not like he's totally absent either. 

 

So I think this one is a bit of a media creation. 

 

 

 

 

Date	vs	shifts in last 5 min	last shift of game	W/L
Mar 21	CHI	2	0	L
18	OIL	3	0	L
16	DAL	5	1	L
13	BOS	3	1	L
11	PIT	3	0	L
9	NYI	3	1	OTL
7	MTL	4	1	OTL
5	ANA	2	0	W
4	LA	3	0	W
2	SJ	2	0	L
Feb 28	DET	5	0	OTL
25	SJ	3	0	L
		38	4
		3.2

Nice research! Where'd you get the numbers from?

[73 Percent]

37 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

40 second shifts which might be a tad long would yield 7.5 shifts in 5 minutes. If the 4th line was being sat out it would amount to roughly 2 shifts per line. Anymore than 2 shifts and the player is getting extra TOI. It appears that Bo is getting extra ice not less.

This deserves a million plusses.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, ajhockey said:

Nice research! Where'd you get the numbers from?

pulled it right off the box scores on NHL.com  (@oldnews recommendation) 

Edited March 23, 2017 by S'all Good Man

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

40 second shifts which might be a tad long would yield 7.5 shifts in 5 minutes. If the 4th line was being sat out it would amount to roughly 2 shifts per line. Anymore than 2 shifts and the player is getting extra TOI. It appears that Bo is getting extra ice not less.

I don't know if its "extra" but he's getting the time.... but my guess is because he hasn't been on for the last shift 4/12 times, thats where the impression of low time is coming from. There could be a bit of merit to that in maybe a game or two but he was probably just on for 3 shifts, so.... 

Edited March 23, 2017 by S'all Good Man

[oldnews]

2 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

OK so @oldnews asked me to dig deeper on the assumption that Bo isn't getting enough shifts in the last 5 minutes of games. I've gone back and had a look at the games since the 5 day break to see if there's a pattern (if someone see's an error pls let me know, i'm not trying to jig the stats).

 

So... its interesting. He is getting shifts - av of 3 in the last 5 minutes since the break. But (there is always one eh?) he isn't getting many LAST shifts. When I checked the shift charts you can see who was on the ice for the last shift, and Bo was only out on the ice for 4/12 games on the last shift. 

 

So maybe whats going on here is people aren't seeing Bo out there when the game ends, and are thinking they haven't seen him for much of the last few minutes? 

 

Certainly I'd like to see Bo out there a bit more at the end of games and be there when the clock is winding down for scoring chances, but its not like he's totally absent either. 

 

So I think this one is a bit of a media creation. 

 

 

 

 

Date	vs	shifts in last 5 min	last shift of game	W/L
Mar 21	CHI	2	0	L
18	OIL	3	0	L
16	DAL	5	1	L
13	BOS	3	1	L
11	PIT	3	0	L
9	NYI	3	1	OTL
7	MTL	4	1	OTL
5	ANA	2	0	W
4	LA	3	0	W
2	SJ	2	0	L
Feb 28	DET	5	0	OTL
25	SJ	3	0	L
		38	4
		3.2

Kudos for following up and pointing out the objective reality.

I think what it actually evidences is that Horvat is playing more than normal in the final 5 minutes - 3.2 shifts every 5 minutes would put him at about 38.4 shifts per 60 minutes or roughly 26 minutes per game.  I'm not surprised, because I do recall the one game a certain hack had twitter up in arms over Horvat's alleged benching at the end of the game - I looked at the shift chart and it was utter bullcrap.

[JM_]

Just now, oldnews said:

Kudos for following up and pointing out the objective reality.

I think what it actually evidences is that Horvat is playing more than normal in the final 5 minutes - 3.2 shifts every 5 minutes would put him at about 38.4 shifts per 60 minutes or roughly 26 minutes per game.  I'm not surprised, because I do recall the one game a certain hack had twitter up in arms over Horvat's alleged benching at the end of the game - I looked at the shift chart and it was utter bullcrap.

yah thanks for putting me on to it. Hey I don't want to crap on Willie just for the sake of it. 

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

yah thanks for putting me on to it. Hey I don't want to crap on Willie just for the sake of it. 

I think there's a general assumption that the reasoning behind WD not playing young players as much as some people would like is simply a matter of self-preservation on his part - as if he believes he has a better chance of winning by playing AHLers in certain situations as opposed to more raw prospects.  I don't think it's that simple - at all.   Part of his job is to be careful with young players - to keep them on an upward trajectory in their development, so that their confidence builds as opposed to slingshots back and forth all over the place.  A very good example was how he managed Baertschi's early months here.   So many people were up in arms - knew so much better - thought Baertschi should be playing bigger minutes sooner.  But Baertschi came here with fractured confidence - and in the end, it took WD a half season or so, but Sven most certainly recovered - and praised the coach for how he was patient with him, how well he communicated with Baertschi - the end result was recovering a pretty good middle six forward.  I think Sbisa's experience is likely quite similar - he was rushed into the NHL - thrown in over his head and was looking like a potential bust by the time he was thrown into the Kesler deal.  Again - kudos to this management group and coaching staff for identifying a player they could work with - and executing.  I doubt that Granlund had quite the same issues, but at the same time it would be very difficult to argue that his confidence has not blossomed the more time he's been in Desjardins' lineup.  Stecher has a certain level of development coming out of college - having played against (some) young men for a few years, and being blessed with a pretty high level of hockey intelligence that at 22 yrs old he's been on the cusp of ready for the significant minutes he's gotten and in either event is a very clear counterpoint to the idea that WD has some kind of cookie-cutter preference for veterans.  As Benning pointed out, the coach has to walk a fine line of balancing a number of goals simultaneously - winning games / staying competitve, developing players properly and having them earn their uptick in minutes,

 

A player like Horvat - I think it's been pretty clear that he's somewhat of an exception - perhaps unbreakable to a certain extent - and that the coaching staff has been leaning on him more than you would most young players - to the point where he's already reaching out for the team's torch.  He's only 21 years old.   Now, the same tired complaints about players like Goldobin - as if Desjardins doesn''t want these guys to succeed.   The coaching staff (and mngt) have a pretty good eye on these guys though - they know where they're at in a development sense - know their strengths and weaknesses - and don't want to overexpose them too early for a number of reasons.   There lots of time for us to see Goldobin can do.

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I think there's a general assumption that the reasoning behind WD not playing young players as much as some people would like is simply a matter of self-preservation on his part - as if he believes he has a better chance of winning by playing AHLers in certain situations as opposed to more raw prospects.  I don't think it's that simple - at all.   Part of his job is to be careful with young players - to keep them on an upward trajectory in their development, so that their confidence builds as opposed to slingshots back and forth all over the place.  A very good example was how he managed Baertschi's early months here.   So many people were up in arms - knew so much better - thought Baertschi should be playing bigger minutes sooner.  But Baertschi came here with fractured confidence - and in the end, it took WD a half season or so, but Sven most certainly recovered - and praised the coach for how he was patient with him, how well he communicated with Baertschi - the end result was recovering a pretty good middle six forward.  I think Sbisa's experience is likely quite similar - he was rushed into the NHL - thrown in over his head and was looking like a potential bust by the time he was thrown into the Kesler deal.  Again - kudos to this management group and coaching staff for identifying a player they could work with - and executing.  I doubt that Granlund had quite the same issues, but at the same time it would be very difficult to argue that his confidence has not blossomed the more time he's been in Desjardins' lineup.  Stecher has a certain level of development coming out of college - having played against (some) young men for a few years, and being blessed with a pretty high level of hockey intelligence that at 22 yrs old he's been on the cusp of ready for the significant minutes he's gotten and in either event is a very clear counterpoint to the idea that WD has some kind of cookie-cutter preference for veterans.  As Benning pointed out, the coach has to walk a fine line of balancing a number of goals simultaneously - winning games / staying competitve, developing players properly and having them earn their uptick in minutes,

 

A player like Horvat - I think it's been pretty clear that he's somewhat of an exception - perhaps unbreakable to a certain extent - and that the coaching staff has been leaning on him more than you would most young players - to the point where he's already reaching out for the team's torch.  He's only 21 years old.   Now, the same tired complaints about players like Goldobin - as if Desjardins doesn''t want these guys to succeed.   The coaching staff (and mngt) have a pretty good eye on these guys though - they know where they're at in a development sense - know their strengths and weaknesses - and don't want to overexpose them too early for a number of reasons.   There lots of time for us to see Goldobin can do.

 

I've never once bought into the story that Willie's motivation is just his job, or that he doesn't want some kid or other to not do well, not at all. I still wonder about some of his line choices and if he's a coach that can be a difference maker during games, but over the course of this year I've certainly come to appreciate what he's done for development. 

 

 

 

[oldnews]

Just now, S'all Good Man said:

 

I've never once bought into the story that Willie's motivation is just his job, or that he doesn't want some kid or other to not do well, not at all. I still wonder about some of his line choices and if he's a coach that can be a difference maker during games, but over the course of this year I've certainly come to appreciate what he's done for development.

There were some signs I really liked - when the team was recognizable that is.  The amount of comebacks they managed was very impressive imo - something this team was not known for in recent years and I think Desjardins has to be credited with some of it - the ability to turn a game around - particularly when the team isn't the type that is laden with snipers and game-breakers.   If anything I'd probably be more concerned about how frequently they got behind as opposed to whether he was able to make a difference during the game.  But what I find more promising is the way they play - regardless of what his lineup looks like - they may give up shots when they're grossly over-manned - but the team has consistently played good systems hockey imo - they are harder to play against than they have been in years, they have fewer breakdowns than they've had since probably the AV era, and they maintain pretty good puck pressure and support over 200 ft for the most part.    The story seems to be that Miller is responsible for all decent results, but in fairness to the team as a whole, Miller has a .915 sv% - it was actually a hair better last year - and as far as I'm concerned, those aren't deflated numbers - he's been good, and on some nights great - as you'd expect from a 6 million goaltender.   Other teams get the same kind of boost from their keeper - I think Miller actually gets more credit than he deserves in general (of course on the odd night he's the best player on the ice).

[JM_]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

There were some signs I really liked - when the team was recognizable that is.  The amount of comebacks they managed was very impressive imo - something this team was not known for in recent years and I think Desjardins has to be credited with some of it - the ability to turn a game around - particularly when the team isn't the type that is laden with snipers and game-breakers.   If anything I'd probably be more concerned about how frequently they got behind as opposed to whether he was able to make a difference during the game.  But what I find more promising is the way they play - regardless of what his lineup looks like - they may give up shots when they're grossly over-manned - but the team has consistently played good systems hockey imo - they are harder to play against than they have been in years, they have fewer breakdowns than they've had since probably the AV era, and they maintain pretty good puck pressure and support over 200 ft for the most part.    The story seems to be that Miller is responsible for all decent results, but in fairness to the team as a whole, Miller has a .915 sv% - it was actually a hair better last year - and as far as I'm concerned, those aren't deflated numbers - he's been good, and on some nights great - as you'd expect from a 6 million goaltender.   Other teams get the same kind of boost from their keeper - I think Miller actually gets more credit than he deserves in general (of course on the odd night he's the best player on the ice).

 

Yah I kind of think Miller is getting the benefit of the system a bit as well as his own play - yes there have been a lot of shots but many of them haven't been dangerous and kept to the outside, but having said that he has stood on his head a few times too. 

 

I dunno... I'm tortured on Willie. On the one hand you look at the example of Bo, and how he really has been given opporuntiny and has made the most of it. Baer and Granny too. And Stech. And Tryamkin.  If Willie was a development putz there's no way all of these kids develop this fast and well. But then there's the nightly lineups... maybe I'm making too much of it. 

 

I really want to see what Willie does once we're mathematically out. I think he has a lot of integrity and will play to win right up to the day there's no point, and then I want to see if he can innovate. If he can e.g., try some new things on the PP, try spitting the twins, release Tryamkin a bit more to get into scoring plays, then I think I can be OK with him starting next season and maybe he can feel like he has more options and not be so rigid on lines  (I think Linden will give him 20 games or so), but if he doesn't try anything new then I don't know.... its hard to turn away from the +'s on development but but 3 years of a crap PP isn't good either.