Article - Leafs' reno on pace, while Canucks lagging behind

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

Their rebuild is over.  Now the job is to build a good depth as those rookies enter their primes.  They'll probably be doing additions like Boyle every year from now on.  

That is koolaid plain and simple.

Teams with rebuilds that are over aren't openly out in the marketplace looking to fill gaping holes in their top 4. 

Boyle was a rental.

I realize it's difficult to deal in reality when you and your cohorts have been as bull market on your Laffs sales jobs - but the Leafs are still a work in progress whether you realize it or not - and renting players in the midst of works in progress - the fact you're bent on defending that simply further evidences that you're not really prepared to think about it - you've simply got a knee-jerk response to defend and support whatever they do - which doesn't lend any credibility to your perspective wadr.

[ilduce39]

3 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

By that argument Benning is hitting 100% with his 2nd round picks (Demko).  Imagine if we kept all of them, we'd have 3 good prospects.  

JB has a pretty good idea as to who's projected to be available when he trades a pick away, so if he moved a pick I'm sure he had names in mind.  Big reason why he was okay with the Lack return as Brisebois projected to be available in the early 3rd iirc.  

 

In any case he seems committed to hanging on to most of his picks from here on out and I'm excited to see what he does with them.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

33 minutes ago, Baggins said:

I suppose it depends on what you call a home run. Mason Raymond falls into your category. Played over 500 NHL games and played in our top 6. Don't think anybody here would consider him a home run.

.459 ppg career a career high 53 points and 25 goals.. He's not a franchise changing but he's an impact player that brings value to a franchise.  Think of the return canucks could have got had we moved him after the 2010 season?

 

Quote

What I consider a home run is getting a top line forward or top pair d-man. Those are the home runs outside the first round to me. I think you're being generous in what you consider a home run. But no matter how you look at it the odds aren't in your favor.

I'd consider a top 6 F or top 4 D a home run,  that's really all you can expect in the first round unless your picking top 3.  A grand slam would be landing an top line player..

 

I'd consider the following home runs. with the bolded grand slams.

 

Quote

Patrice Bergeron, Jason Pominville, Mike Cammalleri, Paul Stastny, Loui Eriksson, David Krejci, Derek Roy, Duncan Keith, Antoine Vermette, David Backes, Shea Weber, James Neal, Milan Lucic, Jiri Hudler, Brandon Dubinsky, Wayne Simmonds, Jarret Stoll, Ryan O'Reilly, Derek Stepan, P.K. Subban, Paul Martin, Alex Goligoski, Marc-Edouard Vlasic, Travis Hamonic, Roman Josi, Jakob Silfverberg, Marco Scandella, Jeff Petry, Matt Carle, Artem Anisimov, Mason Raymond, Justin Schultz, Kurtis Foster, Carl Soderberg

 

 

Quote

I look at the 2nd for Vey and a 2nd for Baertschi as hitting 50%. Baertschi certainly looks to be a middle six and still has the potential to possibly be more. A solid 2nd line or less likely a top line player. Would that be a strike out and a home run on two 2nd rounders by your standard? I see it as a strike out and double at this point. It will become a triple if Baertschi solidifies himself a 2nd line player. Time will tell.

I hate baseball.....I'd consider baertschi to be a home run, at least on his way, we'd be thrilled to have a 20 goal, 50-60 point player even if we had drafted him in the first round.  Heck if i'll be pumped if our former 6th overall pick gets 40 points.    

 

Quote

The biggest problem I have is this notion that Bennings eye for talent ends at junior. Scouting players doesn't stop at junior when a player is drafted. Neither does the ability to assess talent. This is why I didn't have a problem trading picks for young pre-developed talent.

Depending on the situation. Benning is a good scout, but he also relies on the impute of his scouting staff, he said in his last interview, Gradin had given him a list of players to watch, so that was all he was focussed on.  JB gets the final say but he relies on others. Same can be said in the pro's and it's easy to see since most of the young players he's acquired have a familiarity with someone in our system.

 

Baertschi - Green/weisbrod

Granlund - Weisbrod

Vey - WD

Etem - WD

Larsen - WD

 

And now more recently, were starting to see JB go after player he's familiar with from recent drafts,  Goldobin (3 spots after McCann), Dahlen (9 spots after our 2nd round pick last year).  He does have an eye for talent but he's not on his own or it would be like like trying to find a needle is a hay stack, and out of all the peoples who have the ability to point him in a direction, i'll trust the amateur scouts abilities to be more reliable. 

[CanadianRugby]

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

That is koolaid plain and simple.

Teams with rebuilds that are over aren't openly out in the marketplace looking to fill gaping holes in their top 4. 

Boyle was a rental.

I realize it's difficult to deal in reality when you and your cohorts have been as bull market on your Laffs sales jobs - but the Leafs are still a work in progress whether you realize it or not - and renting players in the midst of works in progress - the fact you're bent on defending that simply further evidences that you're not really prepared to think about it - you've simply got a knee-jerk response to defend and support whatever they do - which doesn't lend any credibility to your perspective wadr.

Their rebuild isn't over as in, they're ready to win the cup.  

Their rebuild is over as in, stop hoarding draft picks and picking high.

If the Leafs draft in the top 3 next year, it's a big fail for the team.  If the Canucks draft in the top 3 next year, mission accomplished. 

 

Leafs now have they young core they'll build around.  They have a couple of seasons to build the team they want around those rookies.  But everything that people talked about last season (having a winning environment, getting playoff experience), those are the things that are the goal for teams like Oilers & Leafs.  

[oldnews]

Just now, CanadianRugby said:

Their rebuild isn't over as in, they're ready to win the cup.  

Their rebuild is over as in, stop hoarding draft picks and picking high.

Sounds like the team-building concept of someone that doesn't understand the value of top 4 defensemen.

[CanadianRugby]

8 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

JB has a pretty good idea as to who's projected to be available when he trades a pick away, so if he moved a pick I'm sure he had names in mind.  Big reason why he was okay with the Lack return as Brisebois projected to be available in the early 3rd iirc.  

He can't project who to pick 6th overall but he's the Nostradamus of the 2nd round?  C'mon.

 

8 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

In any case he seems committed to hanging on to most of his picks from here on out and I'm excited to see what he does with them.

Hells yeah.  

[ForsbergTheGreat]

22 minutes ago, oldnews said:

If  for example, the Leafs are bent on acquiring Tanev - my take would be that they don't have a hope in hell of bringing him to Toronto for a 24th overall and a high 2nd.

That's a pipe dream.

 

Cullen's 'proposal' of a mid 1st, Carrick and Leipsic might as a sum begin to approach ballpark value - however it is too watered down and in a form that isn't very tempting to Vancouver.

 

I'd suggest that their 1st, Kapanen and Carrick is more realistic (although still not in a form that represents primary needs for this franchise) - and represents signifcantly more than it took Vancouver to acquire an emerging top 4.

 

Toronto has an additional complication to deal with.

They've let a window of opportunity close - and now have a different market to deal in.

People can laugh at Edmonton all they want - Edmonton acquired a key piece to their puzzle with something they could afford to move.

 

The ED is going to see 8 or 10 teams lose #4 range defensemen.

What is that going to do to the D market and the UFA D market?  It's pretty hard to imagine any other effect than a continued escalation of market value for top 4 D.

 

Imo, Toronto has excelled in two areas - 1) hiring Babcock and 2) winning the lottery.

Where they have failed is their back end  and more notabley, in the trade market imo.  Phaneuf, Panik, Bernier,  Kessel, Grabner, Bolland,  Boyle - quite simply, no shortage of weak and awful deals they've cut in the past 3-4 years.  A heavy price paid again to acquire yet another goaltender in Andersen.    And here they are again, poised to enter a tightening D market.   They might want to make Babcock their coach and GM before the geniuses in management make another move.

Don't forget that beauty of a signing in Clarkson.

[CanadianRugby]

3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Sounds like the team-building concept of someone that doesn't understand the value of top 4 defensemen.

4th teenager in NHL history to score 40.  3 of top 4 scoring rookies in the league, each put up 60+ points, take the team to the playoffs and put up good fight against the Caps...

"Yeah.. but do they have a good 4th Dman?  If they don't.  Rebuild terrible."  Yeah Lou Lamoriello doesn't know anything about defensemen.  

[oldnews]

10 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

 

Avoids the patently obvious by referring to shiny forwards lol.

 

The Leafs don't need to add any more D prospects!  They have Matthews and Marner!  Who needs D when you got that?

The rebuild is done!

 

Cool story.

Good to know.

[Slegr]

I will laugh when the Leafs take two steps back in 2017/18, fail to make the playoffs and see Las Vegas beat them in the standings. It's more of a possibility than some will let on.

[CanadianRugby]

9 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Avoids the patently obvious by referring to shiny forwards lol.

 

The Leafs don't need to add any more D prospects!

The rebuild is done!

 

Cool story.

Good to know.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/toronto_maple_leafs/

Their remaining prospect strength in the minors is exactly what they still need.  It's also a lot easier to get a top 4 D than a top scoring rookie.  What are you even comparing. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

6 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Sounds like the team-building concept of someone that doesn't understand the value of top 4 defensemen.

In fairness,  I don't think you're giving andersen enough credit, they guy is a legit #1 goalie.  The leafs D isn't as bad as you make it out to be, they have some exciting young prospects coming up (Dermott, Nielsen) and if they do decide to make a move, they have a ton of expendable assets to make a pitch, They have 17 picks in the next two years (7 in the first 3 rounds), and they have a fairly deep prospect pool (leivo, Leipsic, Rychel, Kapanen, Gauthier, Bracco), All which can go a long way to finding that top pairing D. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see them resign Boyle and even push for a guy like alzner or even go hard in a trade with the jets for Trouba, they likely have enough to make something work.

 

The leafs are in a pretty good spot right now, a lot of it should be credited to luck and winning matthews, but they are young and on the upswing, it's not very doom and gloom for that franchise so all the mistakes tend to get overshadowed. .

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, Slegr said:

I will laugh when the Leafs take two steps back in 2017/18, fail to make the playoffs and see Los Vegas beat them in the standings. It's more of a possibility than some will let on.

I'd love to see where they'd wind up with 450 man games lost. 

 

They have teams like the Lightning - who will resurface - to deal with.  The Islanders - who had a down season but no shortage of talent - the Flyers, who have some great young pieces and are adding a 2nd overall.... Even teams like the Hurricanes and Panthers can't be prejudged not to be playoff threats.

 

The Leafs had a good year - with no pressure whatsoever to perform.  Now it will be interesting having built some expectations.

As a very wise sage says - 'easier to attain than it is to sustain.'

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

 It's also a lot easier to get a top 4 D than a top scoring rookie.

another cool story.

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

In fairness,  I don't think you're giving andersen enough credit, they guy is a legit #1 goalie.  The leafs D isn't as bad as you make it out to be, they have some exciting young prospects coming up (Dermott, Nielsen) and if they do decide to make a move, they have a ton of expendable assets to make a pitch, They have 17 picks in the next two years (7 in the first 3 rounds), and they have a fairly deep prospect pool (leivo, Leipsic, Rychel, Kapanen, Gauthier, Bracco), All which can go a long way to finding that top pairing D. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see them resign Boyle and even push for a guy like alzner or even go hard in a trade with the jets for Trouba, they likely have enough to make something work.

 

The leafs are in a pretty good spot right now, a lot of it should be credited to luck and winning matthews, but they are young and on the upswing, it's not very doom and gloom for that franchise so all the mistakes tend to get overshadowed. .

Save the Andersen straw - I never said he's not a legit starter - what I said is that he cost them considerably - particularly on the heels of the Bernier deal which compounded the cost - and that he's not a top 10 NHL goaltender.

 

What you appear to be arguing is that the Leafs are a work in progress.  If you're arguing that their rebuild is done let me know.

What they are not is a 'finished' rebuild - certainly not one that should have been renting players - knowing what they do about the present state of their blueline.

Naming a pair of prospects like Nielsen or Dermott - wadr - show me the NHL teams that don't have a pair of comparable D prospects.  No team can bank on a prospect pool like that - if that were the case, even with the loss of Tryamkin we'd be in tremendous shape being able to assume that Juolevi, Brisebois, Subban are all future top 4 D - however, it obviously doesn't work that way.   The Leafs need more than a couple mid range shots before they declare the rebuild done.

[Honky Cat]

8 minutes ago, Slegr said:

I will laugh when the Leafs take two steps back in 2017/18, fail to make the playoffs and see Los Vegas beat them in the standings. It's more of a possibility than some will let on.

I could see the Leafs hovering around playoff contention next year...I would agree though,that they should pump the brakes a bit..Expectations will be much higher next season,and we've seen it all to often.... 'rebuilding' teams going sideways or regressing.

[aGENT]

Not that he'll likely step in to a top 4 role but the Leafs did just sign Borgman:

 

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Save the Andersen straw - I never said he's not a legit starter - what I said is that he cost them considerably - particularly on the heels of the Bernier deal which compounded the cost - and that he's not a top 10 NHL goaltender.

 

What you appear to be arguing is that the Leafs are a work in progress.  If you're arguing that their rebuild is done let me know.

What they are not is a 'finished' rebuild - certainly not one that should have been renting players - knowing what they do about the present state of their blueline.

Naming a pair of prospects like Nielsen or Dermott - wadr - show me the NHL teams that don't have a pair of comparable D prospects.  No team can bank on a prospect pool like that - if that were the case, even with the loss of Tryamkin we'd be in tremendous shape being able to assume that Juolevi, Brisebois, Subban are all future top 4 D - however, it obviously doesn't work that way.   The Leafs need more than a couple mid range shots before they declare the rebuild done.

 

First of all Anderson didn't cost a lot.  We paid more for Gudbranson than they paid for a #1 goalie, who was easily thought of as the leafs MVP this year.  And now they have a young #1 Goalie.  IF you really want to compare that canucks are hoping we have a number 1 goalie in the future with Demko, because if he doesn't turn out, we are likely paying that exact same price trying to fill that hole in 4 years time. 

 

Nielsen is a physical 6'3 D who put up 39 points in his first AHL season this year,  The only prospect we have on that level is Juolevi. 

 

I never said the leaf were done, but you've done nothing but preach doom and gloom about them.  They are progressing and have a bright future ahead of them.  They have a cupboard full of prospects and drawer full of upcoming picks,  All of those things hold value, the fact that they have so much means some of it because expendable to try and upgrade other areas of need.  Like goaltending and a future defense.  Yes it's annoying when people praise them and dump on vancouver but you have to give a franchise credit when it's due, and the leafs have done a decent job in their rebuild, not perfect, but still decent.  

 

 

 

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

I never said the leaf were done, but you've done nothing but preach doom and gloom about them.

 

You're being utterly ridiculous. 

I've done nothing of the sort.  What I've shown is that they're not done rebuilding - simple as that - and that they have made their share of mistakes along the way.  It would be utterly easy to cherry-pick the misses - as people love to do with Benning - and say 'er, imagine if they'd never done the Grabner, Panik, Boyle, Clarkson, Bernier deals!'  

If you think the Andersen deal was such good value - have a look at what Ron Francis just did.

 

Moreover, there is no cookie cutter.   Stockpiling picks or banking on a lottery win are not the exclusive 'model' of transitioning a franchise.

If it were, why the hell are the Leafs signing FAs?  The proper rebuild is to stockpile pickz - clearly, the Stechers of the NHL don't 'count'.

 

And moreover, why would the Leafs need to be signing FA D prospects if the 'rebuild is done!?'

Everyone knows that only draft picks count.

Wadr, I don't think you're 'getting' what I've been saying on any level.

[DSVII]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

Avoids the patently obvious by referring to shiny forwards lol.

 

The Leafs don't need to add any more D prospects!  They have Matthews and Marner!  Who needs D when you got that?

The rebuild is done!

 

Cool story.

Good to know.

Calm down with that straw Man, no one said they didn't need any more D prospects. 

 

I wouldn't sleep too much on Reilly, Gardiner or Zaitsev, it's a solid foundation. And as Edmonton showed with Taylor Hall, having an abundance of scoring forwards gives you the luxury of trading one to still net you a top 4 D. Maybe not Marner/Matthews/Nylander, but certainly they can explore it with Kadri/JVR/Bozak

 

their two new Swedish Defenseman ELC signings look interesting too