TL: No situation where we mortgage future to make playoff push

[HomeBrew]

17 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Considering how suspect it is for a prospect to actually become an important player, who makes a difference, maybe we should have more picks in the drafts to hedge our chances of getting at least one good one?

I had already agreed moving forward we should be doing that and management has said that they are going to do that. But are you referring to having an extra 2nd instead of Baertschi? Further, and I asked this previously, how many 2nd round draft picks in the last decade have become staple first line forwards? 

[Alflives]

Just now, HomeBrew said:

I had already agreed moving forward we should be doing that and management has said that they are going to do that. But are you referring to having an extra 2nd instead of Baertschi? Further, and I asked this previously, how many 2nd round draft picks in the last decade have become staple first line forwards? 

I don't know the stats.  What I'm suggesting is we need to be collecting picks, not trading them away.  I though JB said he was going to rebuild by drafting well?

[WeneedLumme]

2 minutes ago, HomeBrew said:

I had already agreed moving forward we should be doing that and management has said that they are going to do that. But are you referring to having an extra 2nd instead of Baertschi? Further, and I asked this previously, how many 2nd round draft picks in the last decade have become staple first line forwards? 

Don't hold your breath waiting for any tanker to answer questions like that. They are people with weak math skills who are fervent believers in magic beans and lottery tickets.

[TheGuardian_]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

I don't know the stats.  What I'm suggesting is we need to be collecting picks, not trading them away.  I though JB said he was going to rebuild by drafting well?

Yeah, in today's media over exposure I doubt there are any gems hiding under rocks. Gillis was good at finding them in Hutton and Tanev, who ever heard of that place Tanev played.

 

If this group sits on their hands at the trade deadline ,with the team where they at now, then doing nothing IS trading away the future.

[spook007]

Looks like we lost last night... Burn the house down

 

[Alflives]

40 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Yeah, in today's media over exposure I doubt there are any gems hiding under rocks. Gillis was good at finding them in Hutton and Tanev, who ever heard of that place Tanev played.

 

If this group sits on their hands at the trade deadline ,with the team where they at now, then doing nothing IS trading away the future.

I know.  JB has done nothing at two TDL's.  He has to do something this time, doesn't he?  It's bloody frustrating, as a fan, watching the draft, and we have 5 picks, when we should have 10 or even more!

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

I see the logic in "jumping ahead" in the development stage, so we complete the rebuild a bit sooner.  However, considering the value of a second round pick is a player not likely to make much of an impact, won't that mean the return for a second round pick will likely be an average player?  Therefore, won't our completed rebuild be likely full of average players then? Please explain how speeding up the rebuild is a good thing?

The rebuild will take years.  Given the state of our prospect pool and the unmovable core contracts it made sense to try and bring the rookies up with the closest thing to a winning environment he could.  Enter Miller Vrbata ( who would be our leading scorer right now he's killing it in ARI) and then the trades for picks.  As already explained in this thread most 2nd rounders don't make it and getting a star from one is even more unlikely he traded to get what a decent 2 ND can bring.  He kept his first rounders. 

The second wave of the rebuild starts when the Sedins retire or before if somehow he manages to trade them.  Then I suspect we will have a couple years bottom dwelling which Horvat and Co can nurture having experienced some culture that isn't all losing like EDM. 

Nobody can tank now and expect a core player out of it.  TO beat high odds just to draft Mathews and without him wouldn't be winning nearly as much.  We slid from 3 to 5th last draft and we likely lost a future star in the process.

I also feel that Benning like all GMs, feels pressure to ice a team that can win now given attendance and the bottom line.  Aside from TO all teams lose money if their teams suck.

I really dont think Benning or anyone would have drafted an impact player with a couple of seconds and that the team is better with Bear Sutter Guddy and co.  

I also think that not many teams are interested in Van as a trading partner.  Benning worked in Boston why would they go to Calgary and not us if they were looking for pick(s) for Hamilton unless that door is closed shut?  Also I felt that early on especially Benning has to give a late rounder just to make a small trade like Prust and Lack.

 

Anyway to answer your question: the team is better for it lottery tickets rarely work out.  AND Benning knows the second part of the rebuild is looming and that part will come with enough losing to draft what he needs to go along with what he's already assembled to bring the team back to contention.  Let's hope the fans and senior management have the stomach for that and don't cut the head off before he can finish what he started.

 

As aside LA sucks and isn't going to make the playoffs 

[TheGuardian_]

36 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The second wave of the rebuild starts when the Sedins retire or before if somehow he manages to trade them.  Then I suspect we will have a couple years bottom dwelling which Horvat and Co can nurture having experienced some culture that isn't all losing like EDM

The first wave of the rebuild was started by Gillis and halted by Benning.

This team is half way into the first wave of a rebuild and these geniuses don't appear to be too interested in finishing  that wave for another 2 or 3 years. Guaranteed employment.

The owner has to get involved, clean house, hire the very best people for the management jobs available, the old guys who know where the skeletons are buried and then do what it takes to get franchise players, not just marginal stars.

 

Bottom dwelling? Well I guess not being DFL is not bottom dwelling exactly, but being in the lower 1/6 of the league isn't a party either. This team has been a lower end group for 4 years, with one bump, the year everyone wanted McDavid or Eichel, strange how the Nucks and Calgary suddenly sprang up in the standings to make the playoffs that ONE year isn't it? So many eyes on the those teams making the extra season nobody observed teams that suddenly dropped 20 pts or so for that ONE year.

[IBatch]

6 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

The first wave of the rebuild was started by Gillis and halted by Benning.

This team is half way into the first wave of a rebuild and these geniuses don't appear to be too interested in finishing  that wave for another 2 or 3 years. Guaranteed employment.

The owner has to get involved, clean house, hire the very best people for the management jobs available, the old guys who know where the skeletons are buried and then do what it takes to get franchise players, not just marginal stars.

 

Bottom dwelling? Well I guess not being DFL is not bottom dwelling exactly, but being in the lower 1/6 of the league isn't a party either. This team has been a lower end group for 4 years, with one bump, the year everyone wanted McDavid or Eichel, strange how the Nucks and Calgary suddenly sprang up in the standings to make the playoffs that ONE year isn't it? So many eyes on the those teams making the extra season nobody observed teams that suddenly dropped 20 pts or so for that ONE year.

Gillis wasn't rebuilding he was taking a top team and dismantling it for no reason at all other than losing in game seven.  If Gillis left well enough alone Kesler and Luongo would still be here and a Stanley Cup parade may have happened.  Total complete trainwreck. 

 

Gillis was fired for it and Benning and Linden came in with the worse prospect pool in the league and baggage to finish dealing with. 

How can a team he rebuilding when they bang off 100 point seasons with ease?

 

[Sbriggs]

6 hours ago, Alflives said:

I agree we have an average team, and need a couple of stars - especially at forward.  How in the heck do we get those two guys if we are drafting in the middle of the first round, because we have an average team?  I know there is a  chance to get a star later in the draft, but it's kind of rare.  Plus, we need two of them.  So basically we are hoping for lightening to strike twice.  JB found Krajci and Bergeron in Boston, and signed Chara, so he did get his star players outside of drafting top 5, but can he do it again?

Could we sign Tavares, and draft (hopefully) a star forward to go with him?  I guess it's just a wait and see.

I think, right now that is Bennings plan, go hard after Tavares and use his draft picks to load up on top 6 talent. His defence is done as well as his goaltending. Great plan, I'm glad he is not swayed by people on here or on TV.

[Sbriggs]

4 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

No..its not -2......picks don't just vaporize.....The 2015 pick was used to acquire Sven Baertschi (the odds of drafting a guy in the 2nd round who plays in your top 6 is around 13%),clear win for Benning...The 2016 pick was part of the Erik Gudbranson deal.

 

Also.looking at the draft history chart above,William Lockwood and Guillaume Brisebois are looking to be really astute picks...

Excellent points

[Sbriggs]

3 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

I ignored the rest of your post because it claimed that if we didn't make those trades we'd be a basement dweller for a decade.  That's a nonsense statement.  I'm not sure how guys like Vey or Gudbranson are helping this team, or that having Bonino instead of Sutter would make this team a disaster.  Toronto loaded up on picks and tanked for 2 years and now they're the best young team in the league (other than the Oil).  They're better than the Canucks who actually actively tried to be a good team for the last 3 years. 

 

So far we've had 1 2nd rounder and it's turned into Demko.  Yeah, maybe those 2nd rounders wouldn't give us anything like a Baertschi.  If that happened, how much worse would this team be?  But imagine if one of those 2nd rounders turns into a stud NHL player, that's also a possibility.  I'd rather take the chance at a star since we have none than a sure shot at a 2nd liner.  Though in this case, I can see the your side and its just a matter of opinion what route is better I guess. 

Wow harsh words man take a breath, first of all Guddy is and will be well worth whatever we paid for him and Sutter is a better player then Bones. The only loser for us there was Vey but still well worth the chance. If 13% of 2nd rounders work out I'd say we've done pretty good with the 2nd's we have traded away instead of drating at the time and waiting for those player to develope. Remember I said "at the time" because we needed some youth right away in our line up and that was the best way to acheive that. Its ok to say you don't like Bennings plan, but wait a few more years to judge whether sticking to his guns was worth it or not.

[Sbriggs]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Couldn't one argue that the Leafs and Oilers drafted their best prospects during the Benning era?

Ya maybe but ahead of us not behind us.

[Sbriggs]

3 hours ago, HomeBrew said:

Sure. And winning the lottery helps that case and so does the assets they accumulated in the last decade and then sold off to stockpile. I think Boeser will be a great player for us and winning the lottery last year would of been great as well. I don't think we would have people complaining if we drafted Laine last year... 

Ya and remember the Oilers have had 4 #1picks in the last 5 or so years, I mean how does anyone compete with that? Oh by the way I wonder where the Canucks would be if we had won the lottery last year? Any thoughts? Would we be having this converstion?

[Sbriggs]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

I don't know the stats.  What I'm suggesting is we need to be collecting picks, not trading them away.  I though JB said he was going to rebuild by drafting well?

Theres a time for trading them away, which Benning did, and theres a time for keeping them, which we are doing now. Depending on where your team is in its transition determines when you make those decissions. Is that hard to understand?

[TheGuardian_]

10 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

I think, right now that is Bennings plan, go hard after Tavares and use his draft picks to load up on top 6 talent. His defence is done as well as his goaltending. Great plan, I'm glad he is not swayed by people on here or on TV.

He has no cap space to sign Tavares thanks to re-signing Miller, the bump Horvat will need, the other 10 players he has to re-sign or replace and the Eriksson contract. Benning would have to offer him 10 mil a season just to get the phone answered. Who's JT going to play with next year?

32 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Gillis wasn't rebuilding he was taking a top team and dismantling it for no reason at all other than losing in game seven.  If Gillis left well enough alone Kesler and Luongo would still be here and a Stanley Cup parade may have happened.  Total complete trainwreck.

What do you think trading away 2 star goalies is? The team needed to drop in the standings without looking like they were doing It on purpose to the fans hence the trading of two star goalies.

Gillis was able to see the next three drafts. Horvat in 2013, Larkin in 2014, a chance at McDavid or Eichel in 2015 and Mathews in 2016. Although both 2014 and 2015 were pretty deep, 2016 and 2017, not so much.

The team still would have had a veteran defensive core, the Sedins and cap space.

Goaltending may have been an issue but then he might have drafted Demko as well or had Markstrom to lead or signed/traded.

 

The Kesler deal was going to happen at Kesler's demand, Anaheim needed to create a roster spot and lower the cap. Kesler or his agent put that deal together.

[IBatch]

20 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

Ya and remember the Oilers have had 4 #1picks in the last 5 or so years, I mean how does anyone compete with that? Oh by the way I wonder where the Canucks would be if we had won the lottery last year? Any thoughts? Would we be having this converstion?

Things would sure be a lot different if we bounced  up two spots instead of slipped to fifth.   Mathews would be running our PP right now and half the threads would be about Bennings genuis retooling method and all the props the media would be giving us for his amazing foresight.

 

The point is TO DID WIN the lottery.   So did WNP who really had no business doing so.

 

The new rules suck.  McDavid and Eichel ruined things for all rebuilding teams.  The last team should ALWAYS pick first.  Teams don't lose on purpose even for generational talent....If that were true than Buffalo would have Mcdavid as in the 11th hour they beat teams despite the fans cheering losses.  Same goes way back when Mario was up for grabs NJ settled for second.    Coaches don't start games with " Hey guys i know we suck and all so why don't we just lose a lot and then maybe we can pick Mathews".    

TO knew they had a one in four chance in grabbing Mathews and didn't clean house just for that sake. They cleaned house because after over a decade it was time.   Marner and Nylander are good players with star potential but without adding Mathews it just isn't the same.

 

Our odds of getting Mathews were mathimetically less than 25 percent worse than TO.    Benning would be a hero if that were the case and the tankers would be cheering.  Instead we got Juolevi who isn't in the NHL  despite Scouts reporting him as the best defender.

 

[Sbriggs]

19 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

He has no cap space to sign Tavares thanks to re-signing Miller, the bump Horvat will need, the other 10 players he has to re-sign or replace and the Eriksson contract. Benning would have to offer him 10 mil a season just to get the phone answered. Who's JT going to play with next year?

What do you think trading away 2 star goalies is? The team needed to drop in the standings without looking like they were doing It on purpose to the fans hence the trading of two star goalies.

Gillis was able to see the next three drafts. Horvat in 2013, Larkin in 2014, a chance at McDavid or Eichel in 2015 and Mathews in 2016. Although both 2014 and 2015 were pretty deep, 2016 and 2017, not so much.

The team still would have had a veteran defensive core, the Sedins and cap space.

Goaltending may have been an issue but then he might have drafted Demko as well or had Markstrom to lead or signed/traded.

 

The Kesler deal was going to happen at Kesler's demand, Anaheim needed to create a roster spot and lower the cap. Kesler or his agent put that deal together.

He'll find the money, there is more cash then just Miller and who says we are going to resign him anyways? We trade a few players @ TD and loose Miller and Burrows, I am sure if Taveras will come here Benning will find the money

[IBatch]

20 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

He has no cap space to sign Tavares thanks to re-signing Miller, the bump Horvat will need, the other 10 players he has to re-sign or replace and the Eriksson contract. Benning would have to offer him 10 mil a season just to get the phone answered. Who's JT going to play with next year?

What do you think trading away 2 star goalies is? The team needed to drop in the standings without looking like they were doing It on purpose to the fans hence the trading of two star goalies.

Gillis was able to see the next three drafts. Horvat in 2013, Larkin in 2014, a chance at McDavid or Eichel in 2015 and Mathews in 2016. Although both 2014 and 2015 were pretty deep, 2016 and 2017, not so much.

The team still would have had a veteran defensive core, the Sedins and cap space.

Goaltending may have been an issue but then he might have drafted Demko as well or had Markstrom to lead or signed/traded.

 

The Kesler deal was going to happen at Kesler's demand, Anaheim needed to create a roster spot and lower the cap. Kesler or his agent put that deal together.

Gillis couldnt see the team infront of him let alone the next three drafts.

[TheGuardian_]

4 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

He'll find the money, there is more cash then just Miller and who says we are going to resign him anyways? We trade a few players @ TD and loose Miller and Burrows, I am sure if Taveras will come here Benning will find the money

Trading Miller or not re-signing him is a sign that the rebuild is going to start in earnest.

OR

The did nothing, didn't re-sign, got nothing back and then get fired.