TL: No situation where we mortgage future to make playoff push

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, Sbriggs said:

He'll find the money, there is more cash then just Miller and who says we are going to resign him anyways? We trade a few players @ TD and loose Miller and Burrows, I am sure if Taveras will come here Benning will find the money

You bet.  And I don't think he can argue more money than Stamkos ( thanks Stamkos BTW).  Burrows and Miller is a huge pot.  And the Sedins are playing their way into another a much smaller contract if they don't go elsewhere.  Also we will be one of handful of suitors that have space for Tavares.

[WhoseTruckWasIt]

7 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

What categories? What science?

 

I can't really understand why people are confused here. Simply put, ice-time and usage determines roles. I can't explain it any clearer than that.

 

1st liners play more than 2nd liners play more than 3rd liners play more than 4th liners.

 

Sutter is top-50 in both TOI and PP TOI. He is deployed like a 1st liner (partly because of the coach's incompetence, partly because of lack of depth) but producing like a 3rd liner.

 

It's a very simple concept: production determines what a player is whereas ice-time and usage determines how a player is deployed.

 

Don't even know what you mean by the 2nd part of your post.

 

"What categories" - 1st liner, 2nd liner, 3rd liner.....duh.  How fkn obvious is that.  

"What science" - Your attempt to argue, through statistics, something that no one involved in hockey believes.  Duh.

 

Did you even think about it, or did you just write "I don't get it" as fast as possible?

 

The last bit of my post showed why your categories are facile.  Nieto and Hansen are deployed like top liners.  The standard for who goes on what line is different for every team.  

 

Now, listen hard - don't lose me here - bang those pennies in your head together - what is the definition of a first line player?  

 

Question two: do you honestly think that if a guy plays X minutes he should get Y points, regardless of his role?

Question three:  Do you honestly think that Bonino has been buried under such good players on each of his teams that he never gets the extra minutes, but that he could definitely handle them?

 

You have a subjective opinion that you are trying to dress up as objective.  That's fkn dumb, regardless of the fact that your opinion is a joke.

 

("What science?  What are these english words that you're throwing at me...?)

[ForsbergTheGreat]

7 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

 

Galchenyuk has a higher p/TOI than McDavid that must mean Galchenyuk is better than McDavid.  Give it a rest, with those cherry picked numbers.  I don't care that Sutter gets PP time with the twins, there's NO PROOF that if Bonino did that he's produce better numbers.  Stop living in what if's land it's not an effective way to present a case.  It's laughable.... 

[TheGuardian_]

14 hours ago, IBatch said:

So what your saying is Gillis was deliberately breaking up one of the leagues best teams still in their prime to have a shot at what was at the time 15 year old kids?  .... Wow he must have had some crystal ball too bad he still isn't around so I could ask him how he was so ahead of the scouting world...

Did you not watch the games?

After Daniel was clocked it became even more evident that the team needed to start finding Sedin replacements, one playoff win in two series where they were "handled" quite easily.

Kesler wanted out, AV was losing the room, the media started criticizing everything and the team was aging.

 

I guess you don't watch much except the games, some kids are talked about by scouts when they are 15 or 16, I know for a fact scouts go to see 15 and 16 yr olds.

 

The only reason you didn't hear much about Mathews was McDavid and Eichel filled the headlines, the same with Laine, Mathews and Poolparty got top billing.

 

Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Tavares, Ekblad, Hanifin, McDavid,....... were all very well known before they entered puberty, especially Gretzky.

[TheGuardian_]

14 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

Tryamkin's natural side is the right but he can play the left because he's left-handed. There likely won't be much room on the left, either, because of Hutton and Juolevi coming up. Either way it doesn't make sense to pay a 3rd-pairing D-man 4M+ or whatever he's going to get.

 

Tanev is my favorite player but I also am in favor of trading him for the right young impact piece in return, however I don't know how realistic that trade is and I have no faith in Benning to do it right.

I am of the opinion that a player should "earn" his spot not just given him due to draft position, but I also know that "politics" plays a big role in assignments.

 

I liked Tryamkin's skill, poise and size from the first 4 games he played, I think he is starting to scratch the surface of his potential and I am still very concerned that Canuck management will use him as trade bait mostly because he "showed" them up. Sure they will use the excuse that they have so many defencemen, but it will be an excuse, it doesn't make hockey sense, it will be so the trade can be justified.

 

Tanev is very good and he should get the best return of any Canuck moved.

[appleboy]

4 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I am of the opinion that a player should "earn" his spot not just given him due to draft position, but I also know that "politics" plays a big role in assignments.

 

I liked Tryamkin's skill, poise and size from the first 4 games he played, I think he is starting to scratch the surface of his potential and I am still very concerned that Canuck management will use him as trade bait mostly because he "showed" them up. Sure they will use the excuse that they have so many defencemen, but it will be an excuse, it doesn't make hockey sense, it will be so the trade can be justified.

 

Tanev is very good and he should get the best return of any Canuck moved.

I would be shocked if they were to move Tryamkin. He is a Benning type of player. Benning even said that they felt he could become a top pairing guy.

He is not going anywhere.

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, appleboy said:

I would be shocked if they were to move Tryamkin. He is a Benning type of player. Benning even said that they felt he could become a top pairing guy.

He is not going anywhere.

Tryamkin is loved by the fan base, and sells tickets.  People look forward to watching him play.  No way JB trades Tryamkin.  Tanev should be traded for coming picks, but JB won't.  

[TheGuardian_]

8 minutes ago, appleboy said:

I would be shocked if they were to move Tryamkin. He is a Benning type of player. Benning even said that they felt he could become a top pairing guy.

He is not going anywhere.

Yeah, build him up to add value, scary. He doesn't say much about Edler, Tanev, Hutton, Larsen, Biega and little about Gubranson.

 

IMO, Groot has altered any plans by improving so quickly.

He is always switched from side to side during games, hard to get comfortable doing and paired with the least talented players. How often is he with Edler, Tanev, Hutton...he mostly get Larsen, a defensive liability and often out of position, Biega, better but ineffectively rushes the puck too often or on his off side, back and forth during a game.

 

To me that just shows how good he is. 

[Neko]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Tryamkin is loved by the fan base, and sells tickets.  People look forward to watching him play.  No way JB trades Tryamkin.  Tanev should be traded for coming picks, but JB won't.  

I remember reading a tweet last week saying the Canucks store doesn't plan on selling Tryamkin jerseys this year, but at the Sharks game I saw a bunch of them hanging in the Rogers arena store and people around the rink were wearing 88.  I think popular demand swayed the Canucks store to produce some Tryamkin jerseys.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Creepy Crawler said:

I remember reading a tweet last week saying the Canucks store doesn't plan on selling Tryamkin jerseys this year, but at the Sharks game I saw a bunch of them hanging in the Rogers arena store and people around the rink were wearing 88.  I think popular demand swayed the Canucks store to produce some Tryamkin jerseys.

I think Tryamkin might be (after Bo) the team's most popular player.  

[hammertime]

I think Sbisa and Granlund are the guys on the outs. I wish it were Tanev and Hansen but I believe JB when he says he won't be asking guys to waive their NTC and with JB having signed Tanev and given him that NTC even though it hasn't kicked in yet I really doubt he would slang him right before it kicks in unless someone offers us the moon which I don't see happening as I don't think other teams hold Tanev is as high regard as CDC does. Hansen is a heart and soul player and pretty much the only guy keeping the Sedins relevant these days he stays as he won't return what he brings to our team as he has been plagued with injuries this season.  

[appleboy]

12 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Yeah, build him up to add value, scary. He doesn't say much about Edler, Tanev, Hutton, Larsen, Biega and little about Gubranson.

 

IMO, Groot has altered any plans by improving so quickly.

He is always switched from side to side during games, hard to get comfortable doing and paired with the least talented players. How often is he with Edler, Tanev, Hutton...he mostly get Larsen, a defensive liability and often out of position, Biega, better but ineffectively rushes the puck too often or on his off side, back and forth during a game.

 

To me that just shows how good he is. 

As far as his pairing goes. That is WD not Benning and with the team missing Hutton and Guddy it leaves things a little spars. He looked real good with Hutton. He is exempt in the up and coming expansion draft and has only played 60 games . I would be shocked if he was moved, very shocked.

[Crabcakes]

7 minutes ago, Creepy Crawler said:

I remember reading a tweet last week saying the Canucks store doesn't plan on selling Tryamkin jerseys this year, but at the Sharks game I saw a bunch of them hanging in the Rogers arena store and people around the rink were wearing 88.  I think popular demand swayed the Canucks store to produce some Tryamkin jerseys.

You can order any name and number you want.  

[appleboy]

1 minute ago, hammertime said:

I think Sbisa and Granlund are the guys on the outs. I wish it were Tanev and Hansen but I believe JB when he says he won't be asking guys to waive their NTC and with JB having signed Tanev and given him that NTC even though it hasn't kicked in yet I really doubt he would slang him right before it kicks in unless someone offers us the moon which I don't see happening as I don't think other teams hold Tanev is as high regard as CDC does. Hansen is a heart and soul player and pretty much the only guy keeping the Sedins relevant these days he stays as he won't return what he brings to our team as he has been plagued with injuries this season.  

Hansen is the type of guy who could play well for another 5 to 6 years. It will be interesting to see if they do anything.

[JM_]

15 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

It is not my problem that the truth upsets you.

Are you travis yost? 

[TheGuardian_]

1 hour ago, TheGuardian_ said:

16 hours ago, IBatch said:

So what your saying is Gillis was deliberately breaking up one of the leagues best teams still in their prime to have a shot at what was at the time 15 year old kids?  .... Wow he must have had some crystal ball too bad he still isn't around so I could ask him how he was so ahead of the scouting world...

Back in 2014 I posted this in a different forum with regards to dismantling the team;

 

The top six depth was traded, 100% of the goalies traded, 40% of the defense traded, Character guys moved for a handshake, wink and a nod.

Look at the team that went to the cup final and what it is today. It almost looks like it would take work to get this far backwards.

Trading of depth, character, prospects, star players and league leaders. It wasn't just the cap that forced these moves.

That the team potential is still so high is a tribute to how good this team really was/is.
 

This was before the Benning group got a hold of the team. 

Good or bad, what is in the "net" stays there.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Did you not watch the games?

After Daniel was clocked it became even more evident that the team needed to start finding Sedin replacements, one playoff win in two series where they were "handled" quite easily.

Kesler wanted out, AV was losing the room, the media started criticizing everything and the team was aging.

 

I guess you don't watch much except the games, some kids are talked about by scouts when they are 15 or 16, I know for a fact scouts go to see 15 and 16 yr olds.

 

The only reason you didn't hear much about Mathews was McDavid and Eichel filled the headlines, the same with Laine, Mathews and Poolparty got top billing.

 

Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Tavares, Ekblad, Hanifin, McDavid,....... were all very well known before they entered puberty, especially Gretzky.

Not sure where your going with this Gaurdian.  I don't feel Gillis did a great job that is all or really enjoy it when somebody takes one paragraph out of several and goes sideways with it....I get that Benning isn't Holland but don't by that Gillis was breaking things up just to get a shot at 15 year kids.

[TheGuardian_]

22 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Not sure where your going with this Gaurdian.  I don't feel Gillis did a great job that is all or really enjoy it when somebody takes one paragraph out of several and goes sideways with it....I get that Benning isn't Holland but don't by that Gillis was breaking things up just to get a shot at 15 year kids.

When it was happening I didn't think so either but then a bunch of teams started tanking and I reviewed his moves that didn't make sense and combined with what he was saying and Tort's was saying, there was a push on to get good, fast.

Then those moves made sense.

 

Sort of like now, why on earth would TL admit he lied that they knew the team needing a total rebuild but they were going to delay it for 4 years? That makes no sense either, but that's what they are doing. I wonder if there is another 13/14 yr old franchise kid on the horizon somewhere, Europe maybe. Other than that is it so other teams get a turn being in the playoffs?

[erkayloomeh]

I think we will be losing either sbisa granny or bear no matter what. I just cant see us avoiding it. Since its a weak draft why not trade our first for a good young player or two from another team that is afraid of losing them for nothing. We can maybe get good value for that first given the circumstances . 

[VenitoHammer]

21 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

No one wins a trophy based on what if's  The same what if's you seem to think are so important when comparing Bonino vs sutter.  

 

 

It's never moved.  I've stated and showed factual hard evidence that Sutter has better production than Bonino...You can only reply with "well if bonino got better....blah blah blah..."

 

Another strawman.   Stating there is a reason players are deployed for a reason does not = stating that ranking of all players by TOI is the same as a ranking of all players from "best to worst".   

 

There is a reason why Bonino has never averaged over 17 minutes per game in a Season while Sutter has 4 of the last 6 seasons.  Bonino can't handle it.  

 

That's the biggest strawman statement and holds no water.  It's the same as stating Bonino's production wouldn't double.  Sutter doesn't get 1 minute per game because he's better than that.  

No because when you try to compare players on different teams with different deployment is holds no value.  You live on these stupid assumptions that if Bonino was giving this he would be better.  You have no argument any thing you stats is a cherry picked stat that proves nothing. 

No it shows how clueless you are.   It's a really tiring argument.  If you like to pretend that "if" Bonino got more ice time and better deployment that his numbers would be better than go for it, but the hard facts show that you are out to lunch....It's a stupid as me saying that since Samuel Henley has the highest p/TOI that he's the best player in the NHL.  Hey since Galchenyuk has a higher p/TOI than McDavid that must mean MTL could trade the oil straight.. .  Give it up.  I'm done arguing about your assumptions, it's a waste of everyones time.  

Dude why argue with this guy.....  His love and overkill rating of Edler alone completely discredits anything he could possibly come up with lol