Kole Lind | RW

[Dazzle]

Just now, singing chef said:

 

What a sad looking list of draftees.  One would have expected at least 1 pick per year to still be with the team.  2010 and 2011 were particularly bad.

It's sad when people will use the excuse that we were top of the league during those years (which is true). However, it doesn't excuse the fact that we missed on all the picks even though we had a first round pick, as well as the 2nd rounders.

 

Gillis (as well as other GMs before him, like Nonis) had a tendency to throw 2nd rounders away. If you're not drafting well, I suppose trading them would be better than trusting your scouts. The problem was that when they did draft the players, it was very rare for the picks to be serviceable players. This of course leads to cap problems/overspending and prospect depletion.

[Fred65]

9 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

And then you'll have Gillis who will probably a do-over on almost every single pick...  Just horrendous. I've always cheered for every GM's picks, and I realize that it's not all the time that every player pans out. I get it. But when you miss entire rounds, including your top picks, that has long term consequences. We are still paying for those mistakes even today.

 

 

 

Keep in mind Gillis was in a completely different time, Vcr due to having so much success was picking at the bottom of the draft order. The two decent picks he got he selected Horvat and Hodgson ( who ailments aside was a skilled player bit of a dick ) thankfully Gillis signed Tanev as a FA and traded for Markstrom so don't get all telescopic about draft picks he got so close in 2011 He added Lapierre, Rome, Erhoff, Torres, Hamhuis, Samuelsson, Higgins, Malhotra. Tough squad. This much I do know I used to enjoy watching the Canucks in that era, not so much today, we weren't at the bottom of the table season in season out snd that's what counted. He and Torts were stopped by ownership to start a rebuild ....AQuaman thought we could get back to the SC  LOL

[CanuckleHorse]

16 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Maybe but look at hockey foghts and he fairrd well with Schenn and Maroon  and I tend to think he'd better MacEwen although I'll say this MacEwen is growing into his role 

He surprised me in the Nurse fight he handled him like he was a vet of the ol fisticuffs game.

[Dazzle]

8 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Keep in mind Gillis was in a completely different time, Vcr due to having so much success was picking at the bottom of the draft order. The two decent picks he got he selected Horvat and Hodgson ( who ailments aside was a skilled player bit of a dick ) thankfully Gillis signed Tanev as a FA and traded for Markstrom so don't get all telescopic about draft picks he got so close in 2011 He added Lapierre, Rome, Erhoff, Torres, Hamhuis, Samuelsson, Higgins, Malhotra. Tough squad. This much I do know I used to enjoy watching the Canucks in that era, not so much today, we weren't at the bottom of the table season in season out snd that's what counted. He and Torts were stopped by ownership to start a rebuild ....AQuaman thought we could get back to the SC  LOL

While he spent all his time building the main roster, he completely neglected the replacements. Look no further than the fact that we had no goalies and no defencemen, aside from Hutton.

He bungled the Luongo/Schneider situation, and ended up nearly messing it up. Had Horvat not panned out, like his other picks, we'd be even more screwed. No goalie prospects. No defensive prospects. No forward prospects.

[Ghostsof1915]

1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

Keep in mind Gillis was in a completely different time, Vcr due to having so much success was picking at the bottom of the draft order. The two decent picks he got he selected Horvat and Hodgson ( who ailments aside was a skilled player bit of a dick ) thankfully Gillis signed Tanev as a FA and traded for Markstrom so don't get all telescopic about draft picks he got so close in 2011 He added Lapierre, Rome, Erhoff, Torres, Hamhuis, Samuelsson, Higgins, Malhotra. Tough squad. This much I do know I used to enjoy watching the Canucks in that era, not so much today, we weren't at the bottom of the table season in season out snd that's what counted. He and Torts were stopped by ownership to start a rebuild ....AQuaman thought we could get back to the SC  LOL

Yet Benning drafted Boeser 23rd overall and he's 253 games and scored 210 points. We've had 5th round picks by Benning that have turned into NHL'ers. 

Benning might have flaws, but drafting isn't one of them. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Ghostsof1915

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, Dazzle said:

And then you'll have Gillis who will probably a do-over on almost every single pick...  Just horrendous. I've always cheered for every GM's picks, and I realize that it's not all the time that every player pans out. I get it. But when you miss entire rounds, including your top picks, that has long term consequences. We are still paying for those mistakes even today.

 

 

 

Other than BO or Hutton, are any of those guys still playing in the NHL?  What a list of misfits.  Maggie the monkey would have done a better job of drafting than Gillis...

[-AJ-]

24 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Other than BO or Hutton, are any of those guys still playing in the NHL?  What a list of misfits.  Maggie the monkey would have done a better job of drafting than Gillis...

Funnily enough, I looked into it and the main difference between Benning's drafting and Gillis' is the 1st round. Benning has nailed several home runs in the 1st round and Gillis really only hit one with Horvat.

 

Benning's round 2+ picks have just recently started to be a fair bit better than Gillis', most notably with the breakouts of Demko and Hoglander. If Rathbone becomes an NHL regular then I'd say Benning is head and shoulders above Gillis, even in later round drafting. Dipietro could also make the show soon and that would be another big plus on Benning's draft record.

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Funnily enough, I looked into it and the main difference between Benning's drafting and Gillis' is the 1st round. Benning has nailed several home runs in the 1st round and Gillis really only hit one with Horvat.

 

Benning's round 2+ picks have just recently started to be a fair bit better than Gillis', most notably with the breakouts of Demko and Hoglander. If Rathbone becomes an NHL regular then I'd say Benning is head and shoulders above Gillis, even in later round drafting. Dipietro could also make the show soon and that would be another big plus on Benning's draft record.

Yes that is true as of right now.  Gaudette and Forsling are still around in the NHL, just playing on a different team.  Also, it takes 4-5 years sometimes for later round picks to develop so we still need 2-3 years to see where some guys will be at.  Demko is a franchise goalie, Hoglander is a top 6 winger and Rathbone could be Adam Fox light, so those 3 are BIG ticket items selected outside the 1st round.  Woo and DiPietro I think will be NHL players in 2-3 years.  Aidan Mcdonough looks like a beauty as well.

[-AJ-]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Yes that is true as of right now.  Gaudette and Forsling are still around in the NHL, just playing on a different team.  Also, it takes 4-5 years sometimes for later round picks to develop so we still need 2-3 years to see where some guys will be at.  Demko is a franchise goalie, Hoglander is a top 6 winger and Rathbone could be Adam Fox light, so those 3 are BIG ticket items selected outside the 1st round.  Woo and DiPietro I think will be NHL players in 2-3 years.  Aidan Mcdonough looks like a beauty as well.

I'll hold my breath on some of the maybes, but we are getting some more sure things right now. I looked at it last year and was a bit surprised to find that Benning didn't look that much better if you looked strictly at NHL play (and not anticipating potential), but as you pointed out, the timing is relevant and some of Benning's draftees are still young and in development, so it's not really a fair comparison.

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

I'll hold my breath on some of the maybes, but we are getting some more sure things right now. I looked at it last year and was a bit surprised to find that Benning didn't look that much better if you looked strictly at NHL play (and not anticipating potential), but as you pointed out, the timing is relevant and some of Benning's draftees are still young and in development, so it's not really a fair comparison.

Outside of the first round Gillis only drafted 2 guys that played over 100 games.  So far Benning already has 3 (all are with another team now but technically still drafted by Benning) and that doesn't count Demko, Hoglander or Rathbone.  So it's pretty safe to conclude he will have at least 5 guys by end of next season and 6 by the year after.  Tyramkin would have certainly played over 100 games if he had stuck around, so that makes 7.  And this doesn't include any "maybe" guys that are still developing.  So 7 guys versus 2.  It's not even close really.  Benning's drafting in the later rounds has been far superior. 

[-AJ-]

17 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Outside of the first round Gillis only drafted 2 guys that played over 100 games.  So far Benning already has 3 (all are with another team now but technically still drafted by Benning) and that doesn't count Demko, Hoglander or Rathbone.  So it's pretty safe to conclude he will have at least 5 guys by end of next season and 6 by the year after.  Tyramkin would have certainly played over 100 games if he had stuck around, so that makes 7.  And this doesn't include any "maybe" guys that are still developing.  So 7 guys versus 2.  It's not even close really.  Benning's drafting in the later rounds has been far superior. 

Remember that this assessment was before this most recent season, when Forsling had 122 games and Gaudette 120. Who's the third one you found?

 

If it's just those two, you have to remember that I was comparing 122 games an 120 games vs 341 games (Hutton) and 314 games (Connauton), which does look more favourably on Gillis.

 

As I did say, however, I noted the timing difference, which is relevant. And it is that timing difference that does seem to be making the difference. Demko will almost certainly pass 100 games in 2021-22, as will Hoglander (barring injury). Rathbone looks good, but we'll see if he sticks this year. And although I tend to think Tryamkin was overrated, your point about him is well-taken and I agree he would've surpassed 100 games at least had he chosen to remain in the NHL.

 

All in all, the more that time goes on, the more it seems that Benning is proven to be the better late round drafter as well, not just in the 1st round.

[Elias Pettersson]

43 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Remember that this assessment was before this most recent season, when Forsling had 122 games and Gaudette 120. Who's the third one you found?

 

If it's just those two, you have to remember that I was comparing 122 games an 120 games vs 341 games (Hutton) and 314 games (Connauton), which does look more favourably on Gillis.

 

As I did say, however, I noted the timing difference, which is relevant. And it is that timing difference that does seem to be making the difference. Demko will almost certainly pass 100 games in 2021-22, as will Hoglander (barring injury). Rathbone looks good, but we'll see if he sticks this year. And although I tend to think Tryamkin was overrated, your point about him is well-taken and I agree he would've surpassed 100 games at least had he chosen to remain in the NHL.

 

All in all, the more that time goes on, the more it seems that Benning is proven to be the better late round drafter as well, not just in the 1st round.

I counted McCann in that list...  

[-AJ-]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

I counted McCann in that list...  

I figured that might be it. A bit tricky since he appears 2nd on the 2014 list.

[Fred65]

11 hours ago, Dazzle said:

While he spent all his time building the main roster, he completely neglected the replacements. Look no further than the fact that we had no goalies and no defencemen, aside from Hutton.

He bungled the Luongo/Schneider situation, and ended up nearly messing it up. Had Horvat not panned out, like his other picks, we'd be even more screwed. No goalie prospects. No defensive prospects. No forward prospects.

IF ?   IF. If pigs fly we all need to ware bigger hats. If Horvat hadn't panned out, how about if EP didn't pan out, noGolaie prospect  what are u talking about he had Markstrom on the roster. Maybe things would have been better if Mrs Luongo hadn't sneaked into town. Luongo and mostly Mrs Luongo wanteed Lou out of Vcr ....not Gillis. Schneider suffeered from anxiety and we ended up with Markstrom! He ( Gillis) did find Tanev and he drafted Horvat and Hodgson ( bad karma with his back ) but they were very good picks and while all this was happneing he personally won the GM** of the year award, Predidents TRophy twice and the 7th game of the SC. There has never EVER been a more  succesful GM in Canucks history. No more IF'S lets just stick to the facts

 

** voted on by all the other NHL GM's !!!

[Fred65]

10 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Yet Benning drafted Boeser 23rd overall and he's 253 games and scored 210 points. We've had 5th round picks by Benning that have turned into NHL'ers. 

Benning might have flaws, but drafting isn't one of them. 

Horvat playeed 502 NHL gamees and has 314 pts

[Fred65]

12 hours ago, CanuckleHorse said:

He surprised me in the Nurse fight he handled him like he was a vet of the ol fisticuffs game.

Yeah he did look good but Nurse is not a heavy weight either ..like a Wilson or Martin or heck Weber. However i think he'll get better

[Dazzle]

13 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

IF ?   IF. If pigs fly we all need to ware bigger hats. If Horvat hadn't panned out, how about if EP didn't pan out, noGolaie prospect  what are u talking about he had Markstrom on the roster. Maybe things would have been better if Mrs Luongo hadn't sneaked into town. Luongo and mostly Mrs Luongo wanteed Lou out of Vcr ....not Gillis. Schneider suffeered from anxiety and we ended up with Markstrom! He ( Gillis) did find Tanev and he drafted Horvat and Hodgson ( bad karma with his back ) but they were very good picks and while all this was happneing he personally won the GM** of the year award, Predidents TRophy twice and the 7th game of the SC. There has never EVER been a more  succesful GM in Canucks history. No more IF'S lets just stick to the facts

 

** voted on by all the other NHL GM's !!!

You missed the point entirely. I was highlighting how dire the situation was.

 

If you count Horvat as a draft success, it was the only success that draft, proving that even if he hit a home run with the pick, the fact was that he was a failure at generating depth.

[Fred65]

8 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

You missed the point entirely. I was highlighting how dire the situation was.

 

If you count Horvat as a draft success, it was the only success that draft, proving that even if he hit a home run with the pick, the fact was that he was a failure at generating depth.

That's simply factually incorrect. Hodgson was a good player. However fans have been coerced into judging GM's by one item ... the draft ...rather than the entire structure of the club. Gillis iced a very good team but many were aquired through quality trades and FA signings ( deffinitely not a strong point of todays management ) He enjoyed great on ice success where does that rank.  I enjoyed attending games during that era and that  has to count. Look at the fans leaving Rogeers today they all look like they lost a dollar and found a nickel. One thing  for sure I wish we had a Erhof on todays roster. Think about it Dazzle while you give Gillis a failing grade there were 30 NHL GM's thought he was best in the league, who should I listen to

[Dazzle]

3 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

That's simply factually incorrect. Hodgson was a good player. However fans have been coerced into judging GM's by one item ... the draft ...rather than the entire structure of the club. Gillis iced a very good team but many were aquired through quality trades and FA signings ( deffinitely not a strong point of todays management ) He enjoyed great on ice success where does that rank.  I enjoyed attending games during that era and that  has to count. Look at the fans leaving Rogeers today they all look like they lost a dollar and found a nickel. One thing  for sure I wish we had a Erhof on todays roster. Think about it Dazzle while you give Gillis a failing grade there were 30 NHL GM's thought he was best in the league, who should I listen to

Gillis missed several rounds entirely with his picks. He couldn't draft a serviceable goalie for crying out loud, nor a defensemen, aside from Hutton. And you're saying from that chart he is good at drafting because he got Hodgson or Horvat?

 

A few ppl unfairly say Benning is "only good" with his high picks. That oddly characterizes Gillis.

 

The man cannot draft at all. The chart shows it. There is no excuse. Coming up with these explanations about Gillis supplementing the roster he had proves that he was not able to sustain this reality.

[Fred65]

6 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Gillis missed several rounds entirely with his picks. He couldn't draft a serviceable goalie for crying out loud, nor a defensemen, aside from Hutton. And you're saying from that chart he is good at drafting because he got Hodgson or Horvat?

 

A few ppl unfairly say Benning is "only good" with his high picks. That oddly characterizes Gillis.

 

The man cannot draft at all. The chart shows it. There is no excuse. Coming up with these explanations about Gillis supplementing the roster he had proves that he was not able to sustain this reality.

Don't you see where your heading, the draft, the draft, the draft ad nausea. Here's anews flash there's more to being manager than the draft. We should judge a manager on success!!!  Success is the paramount judgement of a team ... succes. I'll eat my hat when JB is to be judged by his peeers to be the best GM in the league or win divisional, conference or league titles. Or heck get to game 7 of the SC

Edited July 22, 2021 by Fred65