70seven Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 No harm in letting Jack develop with Abby. Hopefully this franchise can get back to proper nhl development. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 16 hours ago, 70seven said: No harm in letting Jack develop with Abby. Hopefully this franchise can get back to proper nhl development. what'swrong with how they've done it? Petey, Hughes, Boeser, Podz, Hogz, Demko, Horvat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadcanucks Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 13 minutes ago, stawns said: what'swrong with how they've done it? Petey, Hughes, Boeser, Podz, Hogz, Demko, Horvat The caveat should be how poorly the Canucks have developed prospects who were just not ready for the NHL yet. Prospects who held promise, but needed time developing at the minor pro levels seem to have gotten lost by the organization. IMHO, it's fine that prospects can develop through other organizations/leagues and jump right onto the NHL roster, but after all the capital investment made in having their own farm team, it's a shame that so little has materialized out of the farm system. The Canucks have put a premium on winning at the AHL level vs. developing their young talent and priming them for the NHL, with only one real season of success (i.e., Comets team that went to Calder Cup finals) and very few players advancing their careers with the Canucks. I am hopeful that with JR and crew, the days of Carter Bancks, Wacey Hamilton, Cal O'Reilly, Sheldon Rempal, Devante Stephens, John Stephens, Nic Petan, Justin Dowling, John Negrin, Nolan Baumgartner etc. (i.e., the "good pros" who can show the young players the way, but have no chance of either earning an NHL contract or even playing for the big team) are behind us and we'll start seeing drafted players and young UFA junior/college signings get a real shot at playing in the AHL. Personally, I'd rather have a .400-.500 AHL club filled with prospects vs. .600 AHL club of bunch of fringe NHLers taking ice time from prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CR7 Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 3 hours ago, bigbadcanucks said: The caveat should be how poorly the Canucks have developed prospects who were just not ready for the NHL yet. Prospects who held promise, but needed time developing at the minor pro levels seem to have gotten lost by the organization. IMHO, it's fine that prospects can develop through other organizations/leagues and jump right onto the NHL roster, but after all the capital investment made in having their own farm team, it's a shame that so little has materialized out of the farm system. The Canucks have put a premium on winning at the AHL level vs. developing their young talent and priming them for the NHL, with only one real season of success (i.e., Comets team that went to Calder Cup finals) and very few players advancing their careers with the Canucks. I am hopeful that with JR and crew, the days of Carter Bancks, Wacey Hamilton, Cal O'Reilly, Sheldon Rempal, Devante Stephens, John Stephens, Nic Petan, Justin Dowling, John Negrin, Nolan Baumgartner etc. (i.e., the "good pros" who can show the young players the way, but have no chance of either earning an NHL contract or even playing for the big team) are behind us and we'll start seeing drafted players and young UFA junior/college signings get a real shot at playing in the AHL. Personally, I'd rather have a .400-.500 AHL club filled with prospects vs. .600 AHL club of bunch of fringe NHLers taking ice time from prospects. Benning's idea behind all those names above was bringing prospects into a winning culture to help develop them... Still waiting to see results... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70seven Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 5 hours ago, stawns said: what'swrong with how they've done it? Petey, Hughes, Boeser, Podz, Hogz, Demko, Horvat Of those players, how many have spent more than one season in the A? How bout TB?… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 10 minutes ago, 70seven said: Of those players, how many have spent more than one season in the A? How bout TB?… so the development system sucks because their best players have either gone straight to the NHL, developed in Europe or in the NCAA instead of the AHL? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 5 hours ago, bigbadcanucks said: The caveat should be how poorly the Canucks have developed prospects who were just not ready for the NHL yet. Prospects who held promise, but needed time developing at the minor pro levels seem to have gotten lost by the organization. IMHO, it's fine that prospects can develop through other organizations/leagues and jump right onto the NHL roster, but after all the capital investment made in having their own farm team, it's a shame that so little has materialized out of the farm system. The Canucks have put a premium on winning at the AHL level vs. developing their young talent and priming them for the NHL, with only one real season of success (i.e., Comets team that went to Calder Cup finals) and very few players advancing their careers with the Canucks. I am hopeful that with JR and crew, the days of Carter Bancks, Wacey Hamilton, Cal O'Reilly, Sheldon Rempal, Devante Stephens, John Stephens, Nic Petan, Justin Dowling, John Negrin, Nolan Baumgartner etc. (i.e., the "good pros" who can show the young players the way, but have no chance of either earning an NHL contract or even playing for the big team) are behind us and we'll start seeing drafted players and young UFA junior/college signings get a real shot at playing in the AHL. Personally, I'd rather have a .400-.500 AHL club filled with prospects vs. .600 AHL club of bunch of fringe NHLers taking ice time from prospects. I would too, but the guys that have gone to the AHL haven't really been realistic shots at the NHL. The guys most likely to make it either went directly there, played in Europe first or spent time in the NCAA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putgolzin Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 6 hours ago, stawns said: so the development system sucks because their best players have either gone straight to the NHL, developed in Europe or in the NCAA instead of the AHL? Right, they didn’t spend time in the A prior to their Calder nomination (or win). So that shows a distinct lack of prospect development prowess. And Demko doesn’t count cause he’s ... well just because. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadcanucks Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 7 hours ago, stawns said: I would too, but the guys that have gone to the AHL haven't really been realistic shots at the NHL. The guys most likely to make it either went directly there, played in Europe first or spent time in the NCAA. That actually speaks of poor amateur drafting beyond the early rounds. Beyond the first two rounds, the only players drafted by Benning who have played any NHL games are Dipietro (3 games), Lockwood (2 games), Rathbone (17 games), Brisebois (10 games), Gaudette (185 games), Tryamkin (79 games) and Forsling (203 games). The rest, as you say are players who really didn't have a realistic shot at the NHL. Super happy about the early picks in Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Demko. But these are picks that you have expectations of hitting on. And the failure of picks like Virtanen and Juolevi has been discussed ad nauseum, so nothing really needs to be added to that discussion. It's picks like Carl Neill, Tate Olson, Matt Brassard, Cole Candella, Kyle Petit, Brett McKenzie, Rodrigo Abols, Jakub Stukel, etc. etc. that were essentially throw aways that didn't add anything to the organization and potential depth at the AHL/ECHL levels. It's been almost 20 years since the Canucks have hit on a late pick like Jannik Hansen or a Mike Brown or even a Kevin Connauton. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, bigbadcanucks said: That actually speaks of poor amateur drafting beyond the early rounds. Beyond the first two rounds, the only players drafted by Benning who have played any NHL games are Dipietro (3 games), Lockwood (2 games), Rathbone (17 games), Brisebois (10 games), Gaudette (185 games), Tryamkin (79 games) and Forsling (203 games). The rest, as you say are players who really didn't have a realistic shot at the NHL. Super happy about the early picks in Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Demko. But these are picks that you have expectations of hitting on. And the failure of picks like Virtanen and Juolevi has been discussed ad nauseum, so nothing really needs to be added to that discussion. It's picks like Carl Neill, Tate Olson, Matt Brassard, Cole Candella, Kyle Petit, Brett McKenzie, Rodrigo Abols, Jakub Stukel, etc. etc. that were essentially throw aways that didn't add anything to the organization and potential depth at the AHL/ECHL levels. It's been almost 20 years since the Canucks have hit on a late pick like Jannik Hansen or a Mike Brown or even a Kevin Connauton. I think they've done quite well in rounds 3-7 and even the AHL is largely made up of players from rounds 1-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Blight Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 The below is a chart showing the % of drafted players that have made it to the NHL 2004 to 2020. I have included the Vancouver % for the Jim Benning drafts in red and this would suggest Benning did fine with his drafts. By comparison, we were below the NHL average each and every year from 2006 thru 2013. Draft Year Percentage Played in NHL 2004 44 Vancouver 57.1% 2005 48.2 Vancouver 66.6% 2006 42.7 Vancouver 40.0% 2007 45.9 Vancouver 0.0% 2008 50.7 Vancouver 40.0% 2009 55.2 Vancouver 42.8% 2010 50.1 Vancouver 20.0% 2011 59.2 Vancouver 50.0% 2012 51.2 Vancouver 40.0% 2013 48.8 Vancouver 35.0% 2014 44.2 Vancouver 71% 2015 46.9 Vancouver 42.8% 2016 34.6 Vancouver 33.3% 2017 26.7 Vancouver 62.5% 2018 12 Vancouver 16.6% 2019 5.5 Vancouver 22.2% 2020 0.9 Vancouver 0.0% 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadcanucks Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 10 hours ago, Rick Blight said: The below is a chart showing the % of drafted players that have made it to the NHL 2004 to 2020. I have included the Vancouver % for the Jim Benning drafts in red and this would suggest Benning did fine with his drafts. By comparison, we were below the NHL average each and every year from 2006 thru 2013. Draft Year Percentage Played in NHL 2004 44 Vancouver 57.1% 2005 48.2 Vancouver 66.6% 2006 42.7 Vancouver 40.0% 2007 45.9 Vancouver 0.0% 2008 50.7 Vancouver 40.0% 2009 55.2 Vancouver 42.8% 2010 50.1 Vancouver 20.0% 2011 59.2 Vancouver 50.0% 2012 51.2 Vancouver 40.0% 2013 48.8 Vancouver 35.0% 2014 44.2 Vancouver 71% 2015 46.9 Vancouver 42.8% 2016 34.6 Vancouver 33.3% 2017 26.7 Vancouver 62.5% 2018 12 Vancouver 16.6% 2019 5.5 Vancouver 22.2% 2020 0.9 Vancouver 0.0% By these metrics, Benning drafted well. And there's no quarrel from me that Benning didn't do a good job at the draft table. In fact, I would agree that his performance at the AD was arguably his one and truly only positives he brought in his role as GM. I wonder how Benning's picks compares to league average for games played and overall productivity? Sorry, I'm too lazy to look this up myself. I'm sure there is something out there in cyberspace that has this tracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadcanucks Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 11 hours ago, stawns said: I think they've done quite well in rounds 3-7 and even the AHL is largely made up of players from rounds 1-5. Agree to your bolded comments, @stawns. I would however disagree with you on how Benning did in rounds 3-7. 2020, 2021 is a little too early to make a call on. 2019 looks like it's shaping out to be one of the best drafts in Canucks history, but time will tell. 2018-Manukyan/Thiessen - throw away picks 2017-Gunnarson/Palmu/Brassard - throw away picks, though it could be argued that Palmu had some promise at one time 2016-Candella/Stukel/Abols/McKenzie - throw away picks 2015-Zhukenov/Neill/Olson - throw away picks 2014-Petit/Stewart - throw away picks, though Stewart was signed to an ELC IMO, the only legit 3rd round and beyond players to be drafted are: Silovs, McDonough, Madden, Dipietro, Rathbone, Lockwood, Brisebois, Gaudette, Jasek, Tryamkin and Forsling. And each of these players have made limited contributions to the organization to date. I do think that Jack Rathbone will be a bonafide NHL player, though I doubt it will be with the Vancouver Canucks (only because he is slotted behind Hughes and OEL, and I believe Rathbone's trajectory is higher than a bottom pairing d-man). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 1 hour ago, bigbadcanucks said: Agree to your bolded comments, @stawns. I would however disagree with you on how Benning did in rounds 3-7. 2020, 2021 is a little too early to make a call on. 2019 looks like it's shaping out to be one of the best drafts in Canucks history, but time will tell. 2018-Manukyan/Thiessen - throw away picks 2017-Gunnarson/Palmu/Brassard - throw away picks, though it could be argued that Palmu had some promise at one time 2016-Candella/Stukel/Abols/McKenzie - throw away picks 2015-Zhukenov/Neill/Olson - throw away picks 2014-Petit/Stewart - throw away picks, though Stewart was signed to an ELC IMO, the only legit 3rd round and beyond players to be drafted are: Silovs, McDonough, Madden, Dipietro, Rathbone, Lockwood, Brisebois, Gaudette, Jasek, Tryamkin and Forsling. And each of these players have made limited contributions to the organization to date. I do think that Jack Rathbone will be a bonafide NHL player, though I doubt it will be with the Vancouver Canucks (only because he is slotted behind Hughes and OEL, and I believe Rathbone's trajectory is higher than a bottom pairing d-man). I advocated for Rathbone to stay in Abby this season and help them make AHL playoffs. He gets the TOI to work on his game and the confidence to come back into the NHL next fall. Next fall he plays 3LD and nibbles TOI away from AEL and Hughes to a limited degree. Jack Rathbone at 15-17 minutes a game into X-Mass next year would be ideal. If he excels then maybe a tad more. I take your point about him might not making it with the Canucks but even in that eventuality, if he is playing well, then he brings an asset back to the org when moved. Maybe if a Abby fan is reading this we can find out if Rathone is getting any RD time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Blight Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 1 hour ago, bigbadcanucks said: By these metrics, Benning drafted well. And there's no quarrel from me that Benning didn't do a good job at the draft table. In fact, I would agree that his performance at the AD was arguably his one and truly only positives he brought in his role as GM. I wonder how Benning's picks compares to league average for games played and overall productivity? Sorry, I'm too lazy to look this up myself. I'm sure there is something out there in cyberspace that has this tracked. Here are the stats for some of their divisional rivals from 2014 to 2019. I have included the number of drafted D's and F's that have contributed to these games and productivity numbers. Edmonton's numbers are quite skewed by McDavid and Draisaitl. TOTAL GAMES TOTAL PRODUCTIVITY Edmonton ( 8 D and 6 F ) 2034 1540 Calgary ( 4 D and 6 F ) 1907 964 San Jose ( 4 D and 14 F ) 1598 686 Los Angeles ( 8 D and 10 F ) 1623 473 Anaheim ( 4 D and 10 F ) 2268 821 Vancouver ( 6 D and 10 F ) 2077 988 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred65 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) where teams do well is in the first round that makes or breaks their scouting. 2-7 round is a coin flip. Fans are quick to point out the succesful 5th round pick for Team "X" etc. but never bring up ALL the failures. JB had 8 drafts to make his mark as a draft supremo. 2 first round picks were traded away ( if scouting was his calling card ??? why ) 3 quality picks QH,EP and BB 2 failure JV & OJ 1 yet to be decided VP ( fingerscrossed ) 0.26 pts/game he's 20 years old JB did have the avantage of picking high most years because the Canucks were a poor team It's not IMHO awe inspiring, approx 40% success rate, hardly the work of a perosn thought to be scouting guru Edited February 16, 2022 by Fred65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Coconuts Posted February 16, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted February 16, 2022 Isn't Rathbone having success in Abbotsford exactly what we want? Is it not the reason he was finally sent down after that stretch of playing for Green and Baumgarnter? As a D who's clearly got offensive jam, but who needs to work on his defensive game (self-admittedly even), is he not better served playing big minutes in all situations as opposed to getting third pairing minutes with the Canucks? Because that's how I see it. I'd rather him continue to get games and develop in Abbotsford than see fans $&!#ting on him when his mistakes end up in the back of the net while some fans desperately cling to the playoff dream. He's been on a tear, letting him ride that confidence boost won't hurt him. Let him play PK, let him play big even strength minutes, let him have powerplay time. He certainly won't be getting much of those special teams minutes with the Canucks, and if we want him to contribute going forward we'll need him to be able to contribute on special teams. Being a guy who hasn't played much the last couple years getting these big minutes and game reps in is huge. He'll only be 23 in a couple months, we can afford to be patient with him. His not being waiver eligible next season gives us time to simply let him cook. Maybe give him a few games closer to the end of the season to remind him of what the pace is like, and how far he has to go. He'll train hard over the summer and maybe crack the team out of camp next season. And if he doesn't, he'll get more time to cook. He could be an NHL D, but it doesn't have to be sooner than later. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vintage Canuck- Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 He picks up an assist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Two points so far in the game. The guy is averaging two points a game right now. Its only a matter of time before management will have to call him up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devron Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 5 hours ago, Coconuts said: Isn't Rathbone having success in Abbotsford exactly what we want? Is it not the reason he was finally sent down after that stretch of playing for Green and Baumgarnter? As a D who's clearly got offensive jam, but who needs to work on his defensive game (self-admittedly even), is he not better served playing big minutes in all situations as opposed to getting third pairing minutes with the Canucks? Because that's how I see it. I'd rather him continue to get games and develop in Abbotsford than see fans $&!#ting on him when his mistakes end up in the back of the net while some fans desperately cling to the playoff dream. He's been on a tear, letting him ride that confidence boost won't hurt him. Let him play PK, let him play big even strength minutes, let him have powerplay time. He certainly won't be getting much of those special teams minutes with the Canucks, and if we want him to contribute going forward we'll need him to be able to contribute on special teams. Being a guy who hasn't played much the last couple years getting these big minutes and game reps in is huge. He'll only be 23 in a couple months, we can afford to be patient with him. His not being waiver eligible next season gives us time to simply let him cook. Maybe give him a few games closer to the end of the season to remind him of what the pace is like, and how far he has to go. He'll train hard over the summer and maybe crack the team out of camp next season. And if he doesn't, he'll get more time to cook. He could be an NHL D, but it doesn't have to be sooner than later. Well said. It’s been great for him. Should have started the year there. As a fan though it’s just so tempting to want to see him with the big club when M Hunt is playing regular minutes lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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