London attack at Parsons Green station eyed as 'terrorist incident,' police say

[Warhippy]

22 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I have lived in Europe for a lot of my adult life and there are zones (even in London) where police advise you not to go at night.   I have never actually seen "zones" like with fences or signs but have been told it was my best interest for safety to get myself and my date off the tube, for example, before "stop x" or similar.   In Germany there are similar areas at night that I cannot for a second fathom are safer than "Vancouver East Side" or wherever the comparison was.   

 

However, having also spent some time in the US - I would go almost ANYWHERE in Europe at any time of night over some of the places I saw in Philadelphia.   

 

So not sure about click bait bs but don't think that things are rosy in Europe but for the US to be claiming the Europe is somehow under siege in comparison to just being a normal person driving in Chicago, for example, is a bit disingenuous. 

See.  I think THAT is a far more believable statement than clams beliefs 

 

With the social issues prominent across the globe right now every city has places that are best not visited after dark.

 

Even Kelowna and penticton in the sunny Okanagan valley are showing places where people are being told 

 

For your safety avoid here and there.

 

It's been like that for a long long while and has little to do with migrants.

[Warhippy]

17 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Of course any city will have crime.  It's an unfortunate nature of mankind.  But is the crime increased by having refugees?  

Let's simplify this 

 

If you shove ten thousand people who have literally nothing and struggle to feed their kids in to a country not their own with major language issues.

 

Do you see property crime and potential assaults not increasing?

 

The issue isn't a migrant or refugee issue it's a numbers issue.  You cannot accept the population of a major city with those demographics and not expect issues.

 

Germany if I recall accepted in excess of the entire population of Calgary over 18 months.  A major city.

 

If you accept over 1 million people who basically have nothing you have to accept that there WILL be crime associated with it.

 

The hypocrisy shows up when you somehow try to downplay all of these basic facts and state that 

 

Migrants and refugees are causing all this crime.

 

Weigh the amount of crime in Germany over a year vs Calgary.  Crime for crime.  Then draw your own conclusions.

 

Because Calgary has a fair amount of crime.  Rapes.  Murders.  Violent robberies and property crimes.  Much like any other area of the world.

 

But weighing the two against each other I think would be quite fair if you wanted the real story

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

22 minutes ago, Alflives said:

You have first hand experience in these cities.  That's good to have someone here with that point of view.  

Do you think criminal activity in those Euro cities increased due to refugee activity?  I'm curious to know what you and your friends think about the level of crime increase attributed to refugees?  Is it 2%, or 10%?  Is there an actual figure, or is it all anecdotal?  

 

It would be wrong of me to totally dismiss migrant crime.

 

I might be wrong, but I'm sure that overall crime figures haven't increased. I think that criminal activity has increased among migrants, simply due to the fact that the number of them living in Germany has drastically increased in the last couple of years. There have been a lot of headlines in the press stating that the number of migrant crimes in Germany has increased by 50% etc., but again that isn't all that surprising when the total migrant population has increased by 400-500%. So while Germany has seen an increase in migrant crime I think that's largely due to an increase in population as opposed to a higher proportion of migrants turning to crime. I'd say it's more likely in cities like Dortmund or Gelsenkirchen where employment opportunities were already limited. Pick pocketing has certainly increased around the main train stations. I've been more wary of where my wallet is when I've been around there recently.

 

I'm sure there was an article regarding a huge number of repeat offenders among the migrant population as well, but I'm on the bus on my phone just now so I'll need to look up the statistics when I'm home. In my opinion if you're a repeat offender you should be deported.

 

With regards to Scotland, we've only taken in a few thousand refugees. Mostly families who've been vetted thoroughly. They're settling well I believe, although the culture here is obviously very different.

 

 

[Rob_Zepp]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

Let's simplify this 

 

If you shove ten thousand people who have literally nothing and struggle to feed their kids in to a country not their own with major language issues.

 

Do you see property crime and potential assaults not increasing?

 

The issue isn't a migrant or refugee issue it's a numbers issue.  You cannot accept the population of a major city with those demographics and not expect issues.

 

Germany if I recall accepted in excess of the entire population of Calgary over 18 months.  A major city.

 

If you accept over 1 million people who basically have nothing you have to accept that there WILL be crime associated with it.

 

The hypocrisy shows up when you somehow try to downplay all of these basic facts and state that 

 

Migrants and refugees are causing all this crime.

 

Weigh the amount of crime in Germany over a year vs Calgary.  Crime for crime.  Then draw your own conclusions.

 

Because Calgary has a fair amount of crime.  Rapes.  Murders.  Violent robberies and property crimes.  Much like any other area of the world.

 

But weighing the two against each other I think would be quite fair if you wanted the real story

I was in Germany first hand for some of this and can say that you can use the stats to play into the fact that the migrant rate of crime is indeed higher but a deeper dive indicates so many complexities you start to even question what selectivity is used in terms of defining "crime".   What I didn't see or read out in Europe was any extra "rape" or "murder" in terms of migrant crime as, per my own personal experience, most was pretty petty I believe.

 

I think the one thing Germany did wrong and some seem to be not doing much better is opening the borders without a semblance of a plan for what to do with the people and creating such a desperate situation that not sure it was much better than what they left in some cases.   Further, the government (at least in Germany) misled its own people as to how many, how fast and what the plan (none) was.   HOWEVER, to say that there was then a massive crime way and fear in the streets is pure fantasy.

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

Just now, Rob_Zepp said:

I was in Germany first hand for some of this and can say that you can use the stats to play into the fact that the migrant rate of crime is indeed higher but a deeper dive indicates so many complexities you start to even question what selectivity is used in terms of defining "crime".   What I didn't see or read out in Europe was any extra "rape" or "murder" in terms of migrant crime as, per my own personal experience, most was pretty petty I believe.

 

I think the one thing Germany did wrong and some seem to be not doing much better is opening the borders without a semblance of a plan for what to do with the people and creating such a desperate situation that not sure it was much better than what they left in some cases.   Further, the government (at least in Germany) misled its own people as to how many, how fast and what the plan (none) was.   HOWEVER, to say that there was then a massive crime way and fear in the streets is pure fantasy.

Indeed. I think that Merkel had good intentions but it was poorly thought out to say the least.

[Toews]

There are places in every city in the world where you are instructed to not go if you are not a local. I have lived in the Middle East including countries like UAE, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Qatar and as a Canadian I was instructed to stay avoid certain places and take precautions including travelling with a local if I wanted to enter such an area. In all my time there no one attacked me, spit on me, behaved rudely with me, cops and citizens alike treated me with respect and dignity. Would that change if I went to less affluent areas of a city, of course it would. 

[Alflives]

If we can accept that admitting refugees does increase crime rates, then why do our governments (who are responsible for keeping our streets safe) do it?  

[Toews]

It is true that better controls need to be in place to ensure that a country is accepting the right demographic of people and that these people are truly in danger due to war or political reasons. You should not just be allowed into a country just because you were not happy in your home country. There are refugees who are truly in danger due to their home having turned into a war zone. They should be prioritized and to serve them effectively we need to make sure that any and all migrants and truly there because life in their home country is untenable. By the right demographic I mean that women and children must be prioritized. Criminals should be prosecuted and serve sentences. Depending on the nature of their crimes they should be deported as well, repeat offenders should also be deported. If you are a guest in the country then you need to respect the laws of that country and be appreciative of the hospitality of the country. I have travelled to a whole bunch of countries and I have respected and followed all their laws, all migrants have the same obligation. 

[inane]

24 minutes ago, Alflives said:

If we can accept that admitting refugees does increase crime rates, then why do our governments (who are responsible for keeping our streets safe) do it?  

What would not admitting refugees mean? What positives do refugees bring to our societies? 

 

 

[Alflives]

35 minutes ago, inane said:

What would not admitting refugees mean? What positives do refugees bring to our societies? 

 

 

 Culturally, they enhance our cities. Plus, they allow us to better understand their beliefs, if they are different from our own.  There is no denying that refugees bring positives to a society.  However, is not our government's fundamental responsibility to protect its own citizenry first and foremost?  This is the contradiction I see.  If refugees increase crime, then how can a responsible government allow them to come, when that government is supposed to first protect those who are already citizens?  

[inane]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

 Culturally, they enhance our cities. Plus, they allow us to better understand their beliefs, if they are different from our own.  There is no denying that refugees bring positives to a society.  However, is not our government's fundamental responsibility to protect its own citizenry first and foremost?  This is the contradiction I see.  If refugees increase crime, then how can a responsible government allow them to come, when that government is supposed to first protect those who are already citizens?  

Plus they develop multi-billion dollar companies. Become superstar athletes. They do everything people born in the country they've moved to do. And yes, they commit crimes. 

Your myopic view on this is a bit much. 

[kingofsurrey]

3 hours ago, Scottish⑦Canuck said:

My brother lives in the Ruhrpott. I've visited dozens of times. These are large cities. Many are former industrial cities with high unemployment rates. It is no shock that there are less affluent or more dangerous areas within them but they aren't difficult to avoid. There aren't many cities in the world without areas like these. Hell, I could take you to areas of Glasgow or even Aberdeen that are considered to be less than safe, particularly after dark. Again, poorer areas with increased social problems. I've visited friends in the so called "No-go" area of Dortmund - the Nordstadt. They live there with no problems. The people are less fortunate, there are many immigrants from Bulgaria, Romania, North Africa etc. and there are drug problems. But like the Downtown Eastside they're not particularly threatening. The majority are just poor souls less fortunate than the majority and they ultimately came there to try and make a better life for themselves. And the area has been like that since before the recent migrant wave, so you can't blame them for that although the sheer number certainly hasn't helped.

 

I've been to Berlin, Munich, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Dortmund, Gelsenkirchen, Bochum, Oberhausen, Essen, Munster, Mannheim, Frankfurt, Hannover, Freiburg, Karlsruhe etc. It would be incredibly naive to think that none of these cities have problems. Given their size it would be surprising if they didn't.

 

How many German cities have you visited? Or is your opinion solely based on the views of your "friends"?

What a great post. Thank you.

 

 

 

[Warhippy]

2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I was in Germany first hand for some of this and can say that you can use the stats to play into the fact that the migrant rate of crime is indeed higher but a deeper dive indicates so many complexities you start to even question what selectivity is used in terms of defining "crime".   What I didn't see or read out in Europe was any extra "rape" or "murder" in terms of migrant crime as, per my own personal experience, most was pretty petty I believe.

 

I think the one thing Germany did wrong and some seem to be not doing much better is opening the borders without a semblance of a plan for what to do with the people and creating such a desperate situation that not sure it was much better than what they left in some cases.   Further, the government (at least in Germany) misled its own people as to how many, how fast and what the plan (none) was.   HOWEVER, to say that there was then a massive crime way and fear in the streets is pure fantasy.

Any time you add the population of a major city to a few select areas of a country, add in economic and language issues.  There will be crime.

 

I don't think ANYONE can say that adding 1 million + people to any population will not show these issues.

 

It's common sense.  Increase the numbers increase the problems.

 

For people to claim though that it's based specifically on 1 issue (migrants) is specious indeed.  

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, inane said:

What would not admitting refugees mean? What positives do refugees bring to our societies? 

 

 

About the same as the knuckle draggers who drop out of high school and become basic labourers do in our societies.  The trailer living dey took er jerbs types.

 

Except, migrants/immigrants are more than likely to contribute overall as they have very little to no choice over time.  Ask one of those special types if they'd scrub a shi**er and they'd say no  ask an immigrant and they'll probably do it for minimum wage.

 

They add a fair bit honestly.  I'd say it's western society that are the current detriment to western society

[kingofsurrey]

As Canadians we should thoroughly be on the side of well planned , funded and  well implimented immigration  / refugee programs.   It has made Canada into the great country we have today. 

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, inane said:

Plus they develop multi-billion dollar companies. Become superstar athletes. They do everything people born in the country they've moved to do. And yes, they commit crimes. 

Your myopic view on this is a bit much. 

Yes, I don't deny that (some) refugees do wonderful things and contribute to the benefit of all.  Still there is the legal issue of increased crime.  Regardless of the end (some refugees contributing positively) does that justify the raping, murder, and other violence that (again some) refugees do to citizens?  Even one crime perpetrated by a refugee is one crime that would not have occurred if the refugee was not allowed into the country.  Do we disregard the rights of those citizens who's rights to safety of person have been (will be, currently are) violated?

I don't know if my view is myopic.  I guess one could suggest my views are if this was a grey area.  But I don't see this in shades of grey, or on some kind of spectrum of safety.  I see even one act refugee violence as crossing the line.

If we think of a country as one big family then having refugees would be akin to (as a parent) inviting in 10 homeless people to live in my house with my children.  Nine of these homeless people are wonderful, and add to our family.  However, one of them is nasty, and rapes my daughter.  Am I not responsible for keeping my children safe, and therefore responsible for putting her at risk?    

[Ronaldoescobar]

Look at what is happening in the US or even this thread ... They have you scared, fear mongering and turning on each-other. Calling this side fake news and that a  liberal policy caused this and conservatives are all racist that, blah blah blah... I feel sad for humanity, specially those in the west that have been duped to attack each other rather than the real bad guys.... 

 

People better smarten up and try to work with each other... As of right now the terrorists are winning.

 

 

[riffraff]

2 minutes ago, Ronaldoescobar said:

Look at what is happening in the US or even this thread ... They have you scared, fear mongering and turning on each-other. Calling this side fake news and that a  liberal policy caused this and conservatives are all racist that, blah blah blah... I feel sad for humanity, specially those in the west that have been duped to attack each other rather than the real bad guys.... 

 

People better smarten up and try to work with each other... As of right now the terrorists are winning.

 

 

Dude!  Internet pride yo!  No way Ima looza CDC debate.

[Ronaldoescobar]

7 minutes ago, riffraff said:

Dude!  Internet pride yo!  No way Ima looza CDC debate.

True! Gotta represent ;P

[kingofsurrey]

26 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Yes, I don't deny that (some) refugees do wonderful things and contribute to the benefit of all.  Still there is the legal issue of increased crime.  Regardless of the end (some refugees contributing positively) does that justify the raping, murder, and other violence that (again some) refugees do to citizens?  Even one crime perpetrated by a refugee is one crime that would not have occurred if the refugee was not allowed into the country.  Do we disregard the rights of those citizens who's rights to safety of person have been (will be, currently are) violated?

I    

Alf did your family emigrated to Canada  generations ago  ?  Or are you 100 first nations ?