spook007 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 13 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said: Wow, Leafs must really like Muzzin as that is a pretty hefty price to pay for a former 5th round pick who is a few weeks shy of 30 years old. Interesting for those who like bash Dmen and development time - Muzzin didn't really play full-time until after his fourth training camp and after four full CHL years spent 2.5 years in the AHL. This... Should be pinned to all the people saying Juolevi is a bust.... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 8 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Shinkaruk was also a late first round draft pick, so was Gaunce, Jensen and Schroeder. Just because we landed a top end talent in the first round one time, doesn't mean you can bank on it as the premise of the return. Depends on your expectations. I would bank more on Benning draft picks than any of our previous GM's. He's been pretty good at finding NHL players from our draft picks. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, spook007 said: This... Should be pinned to all the people saying Juolevi is a bust.... Along with wanting to sell the farm to get into the playoffs. A lot of CDC fans have zero patience. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberz21 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 53 minutes ago, mll said: Carolina is looking for top-6 scoring help for one of their Ds and Kapanen is a no-go. Mirtle in the Athletic (paywall) writes: "(Suddenly) Babcock has four quick puck movers to rotate in instead of three. This Leafs blueline certainly now more resembles Dubas hockey: skate quick, carry the puck, move it up the ice fast and maintain possession. They finally boast a top pair where both D can play big minutes, against good players, and do all four." It sounds like the plan is to go Rielly Muzzin Gardiner Zaitsev Dermott Hainsey With all the respect to Dubas, I'm pretty sure it's more Babcock's hockey than Dubas. Not trying to say that Babcock is running the show and young Dubas is just a pawn, but Babcock's known to be one of the best coach and have been around longer than Dubas. So IMO, Babcock is telling Dubas what kind of style he want to play and what kind of player he needs and Dubas then goes to work. I think it works like that for a lot of teams too, you can't push players that won't work with the coaching style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 41 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said: Depends on your expectations. I would bank more on Benning draft picks than any of our previous GM's. He's been pretty good at finding NHL players from our draft picks. Yeah JB has been good....but would you say your expectations are that if we got a late first round pick that JB would land a Boeser equivalent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Yeah JB has been good....but would you say your expectations are that if we got a late first round pick that JB would land a Boeser equivalent? No but I'd bet we'd get a very serviceable player. Like at projected 27th, Nolan Foote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberz21 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 14 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said: Wow, Leafs must really like Muzzin as that is a pretty hefty price to pay for a former 5th round pick who is a few weeks shy of 30 years old. Interesting for those who like bash Dmen and development time - Muzzin didn't really play full-time until after his fourth training camp and after four full CHL years spent 2.5 years in the AHL. 49 minutes ago, spook007 said: This... Should be pinned to all the people saying Juolevi is a bust.... LOL, one exception makes it a rule? Also, Muzzin was a 5th rounder, he was always a long shot and had to take the long road, not the case for Juolevi. If we follow your logic, we better start loading up on 6th/7th rounder....you know... because in 1998 Datsyuk was selected in the 6th round and in 1999 it was Zetterberg in the 7th. Not saying Juolevi is a bust or not, but if your hope for him not being a bust hangs on Muzzin's example...maybe he is a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 1 minute ago, timberz21 said: LOL, one exception makes it a rule? Also, Muzzin was a 5th rounder, he was always a long shot and had to take the long road, not the case for Juolevi. If we follow your logic, we better start loading up on 6th/7th rounder....you know... because in 1998 Datsyuk was selected in the 6th round and in 1999 it was Zetterberg in the 7th. Not saying Juolevi is a bust or not, but if your hope for him not being a bust hangs on Muzzin's example...maybe he is a bust. You may not but a fair few are... it goes to show that some take longer than others to develop.... Just as there are 5th round picks, that gets to play the NHL ahead or at least at the same time, as a lot of first round picks does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 47 minutes ago, spook007 said: This... Should be pinned to all the people saying Juolevi is a bust.... I’m not calling OJ a bust. But 5th round picks are raw prospects. They are taking so late simply because of how many things need to go right in there development in order for them to just become nhl regulars. You’re banking on hope that they can develop skillsets that can turn them into nhlers. That’s not at all comparable to a 5th overall who’s expected on draft day to already obtain those skillsets. It’s not a coincidence that the players selected as the best of their draft class all tend to make the jump at 18-19 and immediately make impacts. There is less “major” areas of their games that need work, which makes them less likely to bust. It’s also why it’s much more evident to determine a player who is a higher pick is a bust earlier on, aka Dal Colle is likely a bust where as Demko (who’s the same age) is still considered a top prospect. The more development time a player needs the higher the risks, the more opportunity for things to go wrong and that’s why long development path players slide down the draft board. You’re banking on hope, sometimes that hope pans out for example Duncan Keith. But for every Duncan Keith, there’s a 100 Denis Grot’s who don’t pan out. I think the thing with Juolevi is that when you follow his development path since being drafted, while he hasn’t really progressed as originally hoped for, he also hasn’t really regressed to the point where it’s safe to say “he is what he is”. His injuries have simply stalled judgement on progression but when he has played, he’s been good, so there’s still time for that hope to pan out. Add in that we don’t have many D prospects in our system to over pass him on the depth chart, he’s likely got 2 years to show he’s got NHL qualities before you can throw him to the wolves 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberz21 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, spook007 said: You may not but a fair few are... it goes to show that some take longer than others to develop.... Just as there are 5th round picks, that gets to play the NHL ahead or at least at the same time, as a lot of first round picks does... That's always going to be the dilemma, when do you quit on your prospect. People always remembers the Neely's, but for every Neely, there are probably a 100+ that ended being bust. It begs the question, are you better holding on to every prospect until they have no more value and avoid giving away a Neely, or do you recognize the potential bust early and cut yours losses and try getting something significant in return while it's not too late, while maybe losing a Neely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: I’m not calling OJ a bust. But 5th round picks are raw prospects. They are taking so late simply because of how many things need to go right in there development in order for them to just become nhl regulars. You’re banking on hope that they can develop skillsets that can turn them into nhlers. That’s not at all comparable to a 5th overall who’s expected on draft day to already obtain those skillsets. It’s not a coincidence that the players selected as the best of their draft class all tend to make the jump at 18-19 and immediately make impacts. There is less “major” areas of their games that need work, which makes them less likely to bust. It’s also why it’s much more evident to determine a player who is a higher pick is a bust earlier on, aka Dal Colle is likely a bust where as Demko (who’s the same age) is still considered a top prospect. The more development time a player needs the higher the risks, the more opportunity for things to go wrong and that’s why long development path players slide down the draft board. You’re banking on hope, sometimes that hope pans out for example Duncan Keith. But for every Duncan Keith, there’s a 100 Denis Grot’s who don’t pan out. I think the thing with Juolevi is that when you follow his development path since being drafted, while he hasn’t really progressed as originally hoped for, he also hasn’t really regressed to the point where it’s safe to say “he is what he is”. His injuries have simply stalled judgement on progression but when he has played, he’s been good, so there’s still time for that hope to pan out. Add in that we don’t have many D prospects in our system to over pass him on the depth chart, he’s likely got 2 years to show he’s got NHL qualities before you can throw him to the wolves Totally agree.... I think it's fair to assume D-men in general take longer to develop than forwards, so I'd say he at least has another 2 years before we can say yes or no. It was hoped that he'd take proper strides this season, but injury obviously put a spanner in the wheel on that, so hopefully next year will be golden for Juolevi. The whole point though, which I made from the start, was people should have patience with Juolevi, as there was a reason he was drafted 5th. He is in his 3rd year as a pro, having improved and been playing well in the AHL during this season, until his injury struck. He may end up a bust or a 5th/6th d-man, but to label him as such now is both unfair and ridiculous... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakrami Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 pretty nice trade for LA. cup run for Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 12 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said: No but I'd bet we'd get a very serviceable player. Like at projected 27th, Nolan Foote. Just Like gaunce was projected to be... See the thing about banking on a late first is so many things need to happen in order to luck out and get a player. Not only do other teams have to pass on the player you covet. The player also has to continually progress in his development path. Someone claiming that we drafted Brock with a late first and there for should be happy with a late round pick isn’t sound logic. It would be like stars saying they drafted Benn in the 5th round so no matter who the trade a 5th round pick would suffice. That’s a terrible way to perceive trade value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 I give it a B all around. Its a decent deal but not an earth mover. It certainly helps that crap d group so if I were a TO fan I'd be pretty happy about it. More interesting to me, is it does set the market. Edler is a better quality player than Muzzin. Tanev is as well defensively, Muzzin brings a bit more offence but he's also not really top-pairing on most teams whereas Tanev could be depending on the team so the values I'd now expect for Edler and Tanev would be a 1st and A-prosepects (ones with NHL experience). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, timberz21 said: That's always going to be the dilemma, when do you quit on your prospect. People always remembers the Neely's, but for every Neely, there are probably a 100+ that ended being bust. It begs the question, are you better holding on to every prospect until they have no more value and avoid giving away a Neely, or do you recognize the potential bust early and cut yours losses and try getting something significant in return while it's not too late, while maybe losing a Neely. This we can definitely agree on... This will always be the big question...to do or not to do... And it will be forever be argued over afterwards, unless its either a home run or a total bust... This is basically where GM's make their legacies... Edited January 29, 2019 by spook007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn12 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 What a "500-foot, upper-deck home run this is by Dubas" - All of Toronto Media for the next 3 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 9 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Just Like gaunce was projected to be... See the thing about banking on a late first is so many things need to happen in order to luck out and get a player. Not only do other teams have to pass on the player you covet. The player also has to continually progress in his development path. Someone claiming that we drafted Brock with a late first and there for should be happy with a late round pick isn’t sound logic. It would be like stars saying they drafted Benn in the 5th round so no matter who the trade a 5th round pick would suffice. That’s a terrible way to perceive trade value. Your optics are messed up. Finding diamonds in the later rounds is what good scouting is all about. If it was easy, teams would always have a full roster of prospects. You don't bank on a late round first. You take the picks you are given and draft as best as possible. Look at Edmonton, constantly drafting 1st overalls doesn't seem to be helping the team too much does it? Tanner Pearson was drafted 4 spots after Gaunce, and he didn't turn out too bad. Had the Canucks picked a local prospect in Jordan Martinook instead of Mallet or even Damon Severson, the team would have had more in the cupboard. I don't know about you, I like to see our scouts do their homework and get 3-4 NHL'ers from every draft. That's how competitive teams are formed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toyotasfan Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Now that Toronto feels they are all set , with the exception of a minor move. This should kickstart the Winnipeg Jets into trading for Matt Duchene pretty quick. Contenders or not, they are Getting into a to a bad habit of giving up their 1st round draft pick in back to back years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Really not happy the Leafs are poised to make a deep run, but it will have taken them....what....over 50 years to get back to the SCF? (that's if they make it) Canucks have been there 3 times since the 80s. What irks me is that they traded the prospects and the 1st rounder to a Canucks division rival. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure_Pavel Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Muzzin looks to be a solid top 4 Dman, the only concerns I would have is he going to be as effective playing the right side and are his numbers inflated playing with Doughty (one of the best defensemen in the world). Muzzin is a big guy, hows his foot speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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