JB has thrown away far too many assets - needs to be replaced as GM

[Toews]

20 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said:

He traded players who are no longer in the NHL for players who are in the NHL. Those are clear cut wins. If you were a fan of the other teams you would want that GMs head. He took less valuable players and got more valuable players. It doesn't matter if he traded 1 for 2 or a 2 for a 4, he still won those trades clearly. The only one still in the air would be the Baertschi trade which I feel was a win for both teams. Baerstchi wanted out and Calgary landed a good pick in the 2nd round.

I haven't checked but I don't think Flames fans are crying too much about Granlund and Baer. Leaf fans are too busy panicking about their D to have a care about Leivo. Similarly I don't think there are too many Sharks fans pining for Goldobin or Jackets fans for Motte. Thats the saddest part that we are touting these as successes while the fans of those teams have forgotten all about these guys.

 

There are also the players who we gave up assets for who are no longer in the NHL or have 0 value like Etem, Clendening, Pedan, Dorsett etc. If you want to call those clear cut wins then these should be called clear cut losses.

[TheRealistOptimist]

4 minutes ago, Toews said:

I haven't checked but I don't think Flames fans are crying too much about Granlund and Baer. Leaf fans are too busy panicking about their D to have a care about Leivo. Similarly I don't think there are too many Sharks fans pining for Goldobin or Jackets fans for Motte. Thats the saddest part that we are touting these as successes while the fans of those teams have forgotten all about these guys.

 

There are also the players who we gave up assets for who are no longer in the NHL or have 0 value like Etem, Clendening, Pedan, Dorsett etc. If you want to call those clear cut wins then these should be called clear cut losses.

What do all of those teams have in common? They are playoff teams, Ottawa was up in arms when they traded Dahlen for Burrows. 
 

If those teams weren't playoff teams then they would be more critical of those trades. 

[5Fivehole0]

24 minutes ago, Toews said:

I haven't checked but I don't think Flames fans are crying too much about Granlund and Baer. Leaf fans are too busy panicking about their D to have a care about Leivo. Similarly I don't think there are too many Sharks fans pining for Goldobin or Jackets fans for Motte. Thats the saddest part that we are touting these as successes while the fans of those teams have forgotten all about these guys.

 

There are also the players who we gave up assets for who are no longer in the NHL or have 0 value like Etem, Clendening, Pedan, Dorsett etc. If you want to call those clear cut wins then these should be called clear cut losses.

Dorsett trade was a win, just an unfortunate end but we got good use out of him. Clendening was used in a trade, as was Pedan. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 

You guys ever get tired of being wrong?

Edited March 18, 2019 by 5Fivehole0

[5Fivehole0]

Also I remember both Canuck, and Flame fans were upset with the Shinkaruk for Granlund trade. 

[5Fivehole0]

32 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

No, you're taking any acknowledgement that Benning has won quite a few trades and changing it into people saying he has turned this team around into a Cup Contender.

No one is saying that though. But the fact is he has still won a bunch of trades.

 

The problem is so many people just say these trades haven't produced elite impact players, so then basically what's the point. All the while ignoring what it actually takes to acquire the type of talent that would turn us into a Cup Contender and ignoring what Jim Benning had when he took over. 
 

So much this

[Toews]

33 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

No, you're taking any acknowledgement that Benning has won quite a few trades and changing it into people saying he has turned this team around into a Cup Contender.

No one is saying that though. But the fact is he has still won a bunch of trades.

 

The problem is so many people just say these trades haven't produced elite impact players, so then basically what's the point. All the while ignoring what it actually takes to acquire the type of talent that would turn us into a Cup Contender and ignoring what Jim Benning had when he took over. 
 

Actually my point is that they haven't produced even one piece which we can reasonably say will be around in 5 years. Baertschi is the best trade of that kind and with his injury troubles, he has been limited to career highs of 35 points and 69 games. Very few impactful players slip through the cracks of organizations in recent times. If you have the player then you know pretty much everything about them, their work ethic, character, strengths, weaknesses etc. Team trading for this player does not have access to the same information. I never thought that this was a recipe for success. Everything in my professional life has taught me that having more information means you have a decisive advantage over the person across from you at the negotiating table.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Toews

[Baggins]

2 minutes ago, Toews said:

Top 6 forwards and top 4 defenseman are available in later rounds of the draft. Maybe we might have found one or two more had we not been trading them for rejects from other organizations. 

The lottery win pipedream. Would you base your retirement plan entirely on winning the lottery? The problem you see is there's far more than 6 forwards and 4 defensemen available in later rounds. There's 31 teams trying to figure out (guessing) which will be the good ones out of 186 options available.

 

Elite/good talent can be found in later rounds. But it's small odds. Just like a lottomax ticket you're more likely to get nothing than just something, never mind a big payoff. You still buy lottery tickets for that small chance but you can't rely on it alone for your future.

 

13 minutes ago, Toews said:

I haven't checked but I don't think Flames fans are crying too much about Granlund and Baer. Leaf fans are too busy panicking about their D to have a care about Leivo. Similarly I don't think there are too many Sharks fans pining for Goldobin or Jackets fans for Motte. Thats the saddest part that we are touting these as successes while the fans of those teams have forgotten all about these guys.

 

There are also the players who we gave up assets for who are no longer in the NHL or have 0 value like Etem, Clendening, Pedan, Dorsett etc. If you want to call those clear cut wins then these should be called clear cut losses.

Clendenning was part of the deal that got us Sutter and Pedan got us Pouliot. Both on our roster. Winning! I'd make that trade for another Dorsett in a heart beat even today. 

[Toews]

21 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

What do all of those teams have in common? They are playoff teams, Ottawa was up in arms when they traded Dahlen for Burrows. 
 

If those teams weren't playoff teams then they would be more critical of those trades. 

Are you making my point for me? Those players were traded away because they were considered expendable, ie. we acquired a bunch of players who were considered not good enough to play on playoff teams. 

 

What about Dahlen? It is looking more and more like Dorian was vindicated. He was on record saying he isn't anything special. Again maybe the organization that drafted the player probably knows a bit more than we do regarding character and personality and drive. 

[5Fivehole0]

18 minutes ago, Toews said:

Actually my point is that they haven't produced even one piece which we can reasonably say will be around in 5 years. Baertschi is the best trade of that kind and with his injury troubles, he has been limited to career highs of 35 points and 69 games. Very few impactful players slip through the cracks of organizations in recent times. If you have the player then you know pretty much everything about them, their work ethic, character, strengths, weaknesses etc. Team trading for this player does not have access to the same information. I never thought that this was a recipe for success. Everything in my professional life has taught me that having more information means you have a decisive advantage over the person across from you at the negotiating table.

Baerstchi has been with the Canucks for 4 seasons now at age 26
Goldobin has been with the Canucks for 3 seasons now age 23 
Granlund has been with the Canucks for 4 seasons now age 25

Do you even fact check yourself before posting? According to ESPN the average career of a full time NHLer is 5 years. So no, a lot of these players on our team currently won't be on this team in 5 years. SMH
 

A typical career of an NHL player can be summarized with one word. Its short! Over half of all NHL players play less that 100 games during their career and for approximately 5 percent of players, their first NHL game is also their last. If we look at this from a different angle, long careers are extremely rare. Only 4 percent of players (that's 1 out of 25) dress up for more than 1000 games.

Data includes all forwards, defensemen and goaltenders who played their last regular season NHL game before or during the 2013-2014 season.

Edited March 18, 2019 by 5Fivehole0

[5Fivehole0]

-double posted a bad post

Edited March 18, 2019 by 5Fivehole0

[5Fivehole0]

-srry meant to be an edit

[5Fivehole0]

5 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

Goldobin and Granlund could be cut tonight and nobody would bat an eye.

and who would slot in to replace them. 

Where would the upgrade come from?

[Toews]

8 minutes ago, Baggins said:

The lottery win pipedream. Would you base your retirement plan entirely on winning the lottery? The problem you see is there's far more than 6 forwards and 4 defensemen available in later rounds. There's 31 teams trying to figure out (guessing) which will be the good ones out of 186 options available.

I don't do lotteries. I do enjoy the occasional bet though. I will bet on our draft picks vs some reject from another organization. I would bet on Judd Brackett over our woeful pro-scouting.

8 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Elite/good talent can be found in later rounds. But it's small odds. Just like a lottomax ticket you're more likely to get nothing than just something, never mind a big payoff. You still buy lottery tickets for that small chance but you can't rely on it alone for your future.

Strawman. I never stated I wanted to rely solely on draft picks. If you are going to bother to respond try not to twist my words.

 

Small chance of superstar is better than a marginal player who will be gone in a couple of years.

8 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Clendenning was part of the deal that got us Sutter and Pedan got us Pouliot. Both on our roster. Winning! I'd make that trade for another Dorsett in a heart beat even today. 

Yes, I am sure you would. And I won't bother to disabuse you from this notion, unless you are planning a career change and taking over for Benning. 

[Toews]

8 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said:

Baerstchi has been with the Canucks for 4 seasons now at age 26
Goldobin has been with the Canucks for 3 seasons now age 23 
Granlund has been with the Canucks for 4 seasons now age 25

What does this have to do with my post? All those guys could be gone in a couple of years.

8 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said:

Do you even fact check yourself before posting? According to ESPN the average career of a full time NHLer is 5 years. So no, a lot of these players on our team currently won't be on this team in 5 years. SMH

 

A typical career of an NHL player can be summarized with one word. Its short! Over half of all NHL players play less that 100 games during their career and for approximately 5 percent of players, their first NHL game is also their last. If we look at this from a different angle, long careers are extremely rare. Only 4 percent of players (that's 1 out of 25) dress up for more than 1000 games.

Data includes all forwards, defensemen and goaltenders who played their last regular season NHL game before or during the 2013-2014 season.

If I were fact-checking about hockey ESPN is the last place I will consult. Considering our discussion was limited to impact players and not guys who got a cup of coffee at the NHL level, your article does nothing to refute my argument. 

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Toews said:

Top 6 forwards and top 4 defenseman are available in later rounds of the draft. Maybe we might have found one or two more had we not been trading them for rejects from other organizations.  

Outliers aren't a plan. And FWIW guys like Baer are top 6 forwards. So basically, a wash 

 

1 hour ago, Toews said:

If I were qualified to provide an "alternate plan", I wouldn't be posting on a hockey forum. I just know that whatever we are doing isn't working and we need to change before we waste multiple years of EP40's prime. 

Come on... Nobody is asking you to form an alternate GM plan, just try thinking critically. Difference makers come from the top 10. We haven't moved any top 10 picks. There are very limited ways of adding more to 10 picks. AKA, we'd be in largely the same place in the rebuild even if we had sold of the entire team like a bunch of $2 whores like you people enjoy ranting about. We might have an extra Lockwood or two but...

 

1 hour ago, Toews said:

And how many are arriving? As @The 5th Line points out our farm system isn't exactly teeming with talent which is why we keep going back to free agency to pay expensive bottom 6 players. Good teams manage to fill these holes internally. Tampa, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Boston off the top of my head have all invested heavily into their farm systems. I have complained for literally years that we have treated Utica like an afterthought. 

Plenty. They may not all be coming through Utica, at least not yet (we have loads of prospects in college and Europe) but again, we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg as it generally takes 2-4 years before most lesser picks even make it to Utica/Vancouver. Patience. Those other teams took YEARS to build that organizational depth. That's what we're doing now.

[Baggins]

10 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

Lol, Sutter and Pouliot.  "Winning"

 

Like I said, the bar has been set pathetically low.  Come on man

What do you expect to get for a Clendenning, or Pedan, or even a 3rd or 5th rounder in trade? You must be one of those Ballard, Raymond and a 2nd gets an elite player kind of guys. These were minor assets traded.

 

Compared to what was given up Sutter and Pouliot are wins. Just as Baertschi was a win. Granlund was even a win. Not every trade will be a homerun. 

 

You seem to expect a huge return for minimal payout. Come on man

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, Baggins said:

What do you expect to get for a Clendenning, or Pedan, or even a 3rd or 5th rounder in trade? You must be one of those Ballard, Raymond and a 2nd gets an elite player kind of guys. These were minor assets traded.

 

Compared to what was given up Sutter and Pouliot are wins. Just as Baertschi was a win. Granlund was even a win. Not every trade will be a homerun. 

 

You seem to expect a huge return for minimal payout. Come on man

I'm amazed how many people seem to miss this. We had zero organizational depth when Benning took over. Building organizational depth doesn't come from hitting home run after home run. It comes from slow, incremental moves that push you up the ladder.

[TheRealistOptimist]

1 hour ago, Toews said:

Good teams manage to fill these holes internally. Tampa, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Boston off the top of my head have all invested heavily into their farm systems.

 

57 minutes ago, Toews said:

Are you making my point for me? Those players were traded away because they were considered expendable, ie. we acquired a bunch of players who were considered not good enough to play on playoff teams. 

 

What about Dahlen? It is looking more and more like Dorian was vindicated. He was on record saying he isn't anything special. Again maybe the organization that drafted the player probably knows a bit more than we do regarding character and personality and drive.

Well I guess you would have never traded for Naslund or Filip Forsberg. 

Also doesn't your point mean that all prospects for those teams (Tampa, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Boston) are basically "rejects" because they are not good enough to play for these playoff NHL teams. So how can they be good farm systems if their full of "rejects" (your word not mine)? 

 

You can't have it both ways

 

So much crap your spewing lol

Edited March 18, 2019 by TheRealistOptimist

[Alflives]

11 minutes ago, Baggins said:

What do you expect to get for a Clendenning, or Pedan, or even a 3rd or 5th rounder in trade? You must be one of those Ballard, Raymond and a 2nd gets an elite player kind of guys. These were minor assets traded.

 

Compared to what was given up Sutter and Pouliot are wins. Just as Baertschi was a win. Granlund was even a win. Not every trade will be a homerun. 

 

You seem to expect a huge return for minimal payout. Come on man

It’s not the getting players back that’s the issue, is it?  All the guys JB traded top three round picks for were NHL players I think.  It’s the philosophy that, during a rebuild, trading away picks in the first three rounds, instead of accumulating them, is going to have a negative effect on the quality of the finished rebuild.  During a rebuild I’d rather collect one more core player, with one of those picks traded away, than having six placeholders.  It’s the philosophy that’s in question, isn’t it?  Or am I missing stuff, as I often (okay, always) do?  

[Sedintwinpowersactivate]

Listening to this bitching from both sides is making me dizzy.  

 

JB is not perfect.  But he deserves to see his rebuild through as he has restocked our prospect cupboard.

 

Will his mistakes haunt the teams future success?

 

Most of his mistakes are fluff and are inconsequential to our future.....Except....

 

The only decision that was made that could legitimately cost us a future cup is the Juolevi over Tkachuk.  Benning better pray that Juolevi becomes a legit NHL defender.  Matthew Tkachuk is a star and this Canuck team would look really good with him on it.  More painful is the fact that Tkachuk plays in Calgary.

 

If Benning is fired it would be for that top 5 pick.  Everything else is just the risks of doing business.

 

That being said... I’d like Benning to stay and see this era of Canucks through to a championship.  Praying.