JB has thrown away far too many assets - needs to be replaced as GM

[Toews]

3 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

Well I guess you would have never traded for Naslund or Filip Forsberg. 

Such examples don't lend credence to your case. Exceptions don't prove the rule and Benning hasn't picked out an exception for you to hang your hat on.

3 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

Also doesn't your point mean that all prospects for those teams (Tampa, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Boston) are basically "rejects" because they are not good enough to play for these playoff NHL teams. So how can they be good farm systems if their full of "rejects" (your word not mine)? 

No, just because a player plays on the farm club doesn't make that player a reject. How you arrived at this conclusion is baffling

3 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

Your talking out the side of your !#@ 

 

So much crap your spewing lol

I do spew some crap occasionally but in this case I think my crap is better than yours. 

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, Sedintwinpowersactivate said:

Listening to this bitching from both sides is making me dizzy.  

 

JB is not perfect.  But he deserves to see his rebuild through as he has restocked our prospect cupboard.

 

Will his mistakes haunt the teams future success?

 

Most of his mistakes are fluff and are inconsequential to our future.....Except....

 

The only decision that was made that could legitimately cost us a future cup is the Juolevi over Tkachuk.  Benning better pray that Juolevi becomes a legit NHL defender.  Matthew Tkachuk is a star and this Canuck team would look really good with him on it.  More painful is the fact that Tkachuk plays in Calgary.

 

If Benning is fired it would be for that top 5 pick.  Everything else is just the risks of doing business.

 

That being said... I’d like Benning to stay and see this era of Canucks through to a championship.  Praying.

JB, IMO, is doing a good job rebuilding a young core.  My point is that core, if JB kept all his picks in the first three rounds and the ones he added by trading away guys, would likely have one or two more elite guys in it.  The quality of a completed rebuild is most often connected to the number of top guys collected during the rebuilding phase.  Giving up picks, especially in the first three rounds, limits the chances of drafting those top guys.  If we had two Gaudettes we could trade one to fill another hole with an equally as good player.  

Saying this, I don’t think JB should be replaced.  I may disagree with his philosophy of a rebuild, but I do think he’s still building us a really good next core.  

Edited March 18, 2019 by Alflives

[TheRealistOptimist]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

It’s not the getting players back that’s the issue, is it?  All the guys JB traded top three round picks for were NHL players I think.  It’s the philosophy that, during a rebuild, trading away picks in the first three rounds, instead of accumulating them, is going to have a negative effect on the quality of the finished rebuild.  During a rebuild I’d rather collect one more core player, with one of those picks traded away, than having six placeholders.  It’s the philosophy that’s in question, isn’t it?  Or am I missing stuff, as I often (okay, always) do?  

No, nobody ever says that we don't want more picks. 

 

I think all pro and anti-Benning people would like more draft picks during the rebuild. 

 

It's just the rhetoric that gets spewed about the significance of each pick traded away, gets way overblown. Especially when examining the odds of actually drafting a star player with the picks we traded away.

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

No, nobody ever says that we don't want more picks. 

 

I think all pro and anti-Benning people would like more draft picks during the rebuild. 

 

It's just the rhetoric that gets spewed about the significance of each pick traded away, gets way overblown. Especially when examining the odds of actually drafting a star player with the picks we traded away.

 

Maybe the OP should change his thread title?  I don’t think JB should be fired, but I’m not liking the trading away of picks in the first three rounds during the rebuilding phase.  I don’t see why we can’t disagree with some stuff, but still like the overall job?

[TheRealistOptimist]

3 minutes ago, Toews said:

19 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

Well I guess you would have never traded for Naslund or Filip Forsberg. 

Such examples don't lend credence to your case. Exceptions don't prove the rule and Benning hasn't picked out an exception for you to hang your hat on.

Quote

Also doesn't your point mean that all prospects for those teams (Tampa, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Boston) are basically "rejects" because they are not good enough to play for these playoff NHL teams. So how can they be good farm systems if their full of "rejects" (your word not mine)? 

No, just because a player plays on the farm club doesn't make that player a reject. How you arrived at this conclusion is baffling

I bet the odds are better trading for a player that turns into a star then drafting one outside of the first round. 

 

So are those players "rejects" or not? They can't play on playoff NHL teams right now.

 

So tell me which players in those farm system for are good players? Because according to you if I wanted to trade for that player, the instant I got them they would be "rejects"

[Sedintwinpowersactivate]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

It’s not the getting players back that’s the issue, is it?  All the guys JB traded top three round picks for were NHL players I think.  It’s the philosophy that, during a rebuild, trading away picks in the first three rounds, instead of accumulating them, is going to have a negative effect on the quality of the finished rebuild.  During a rebuild I’d rather collect one more core player, with one of those picks traded away, than having six placeholders.  It’s the philosophy that’s in question, isn’t it?  Or am I missing stuff, as I often (okay, always) do?  

JB had to turn over the roster and restock our prospect pool.  Did he use picks to get players during the rebuild.   Yes but that’s what it takes to turn over a roster.  You trade Bieska for a 2nd rounder and then get Sutter using a 2nd rounder.  The fans demanded a new core after the failure of 2011.  I get everyone’s frustration because JB is so good at drafting we wish he had more picks each year.  This year is the first post Sedin roster.  Let JB see this through.  We are just starting to see the beginning of his rebuild.

[TheRealistOptimist]

Just now, Alflives said:

 I don’t think JB should be fired, but I’m not liking the trading away of picks in the first three rounds during the rebuilding phase.  I don’t see why we can’t disagree with some stuff, but still like the overall job?

Everybody can...but it's just the reasonable dissenters get mixed in with the unreasonable ones and it's a message board so there can't be respectful disagreements lol. It just seems like everybody tends to dig in and all reason goes out the window. 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Sedintwinpowersactivate said:

JB had to turn over the roster and restock our prospect pool.  Did he use picks to get players during the rebuild.   Yes but that’s what it takes to turn over a roster.  You trade Bieska for a 2nd rounder and then get Sutter using a 2nd rounder.  The fans demanded a new core after the failure of 2011.  I get everyone’s frustration because JB is so good at drafting we wish he had more picks each year.  This year is the first post Sedin roster.  Let JB see this through.  We are just starting to see the beginning of his rebuild.

I totally agree JB should stay as GM, and was really happy he got an extension.  I just didn’t like trading any picks in the first three rounds (regardless of whether they were ours, or we got them via trade) for players while we were rebuilding.  I do understand, though that we weren’t truly rebuilding until the 2017 TDL.  Considering his limited number of picks, I think JB has done great at the draft.

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

Everybody can...but it's just the reasonable dissenters get mixed in with the unreasonable ones and it's a message board so there can't be respectful disagreements lol. It just seems like everybody tends to dig in and all reason goes out the window. 

So it’s like driving somewhere with your wife, and refusing to stop for directions?  I guess Boys will be boys!  

[5Fivehole0]

1 hour ago, Toews said:

What does this have to do with my post? All those guys could be gone in a couple of years.

If I were fact-checking about hockey ESPN is the last place I will consult. Considering our discussion was limited to impact players and not guys who got a cup of coffee at the NHL level, your article does nothing to refute my argument. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=average+career+length+of+nhl+player

Does that help at all?

[5Fivehole0]

37 minutes ago, Sedintwinpowersactivate said:

Listening to this bitching from both sides is making me dizzy.  

 

JB is not perfect.  But he deserves to see his rebuild through as he has restocked our prospect cupboard.

 

Will his mistakes haunt the teams future success?

 

Most of his mistakes are fluff and are inconsequential to our future.....Except....

 

The only decision that was made that could legitimately cost us a future cup is the Juolevi over Tkachuk.  Benning better pray that Juolevi becomes a legit NHL defender.  Matthew Tkachuk is a star and this Canuck team would look really good with him on it.  More painful is the fact that Tkachuk plays in Calgary.

 

If Benning is fired it would be for that top 5 pick.  Everything else is just the risks of doing business.

 

That being said... I’d like Benning to stay and see this era of Canucks through to a championship.  Praying.

To be fair, Benning whiffed on two top 5 selections. Virtanen, as much as I like him, and Olli Juolevi. But Im happy to have both

[Sedintwinpowersactivate]

Just now, 5Fivehole0 said:

To be fair, Benning whiffed on two top 5 selections. Virtanen, as much as I like him, and Olli Juolevi. But Im happy to have both

I’m pretty sure Jake was picked 6th.  But I agree that I liked Ehlers better.  I’ll give JB that one because when I see Jake skate you can see the special quality that JB saw.  Also we had to try a local kid.  Remember that power forwards develop later.....

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, joe-max said:

Neither of the players mentioned was claimed off waivers. Are you blaming JB for not having traded Shinkaruk or one of the second rounders for a home run? You're right, I probably set my bar lower than you.

All three players were on the brink of waivers as they were all just came off there ELC.  It was make or break with all of them with no change to work with their games.  And Vey was waived he was just so garbage that no other team wanted him, and WD even stated that Sven was very close to being waived has his D game not been so good. 

 

 

2 hours ago, joe-max said:

McCann was not included in the OP's sheet, so I didn't mention him.

But he was, he was on the very first tweet the OP posted.  

 

2 hours ago, joe-max said:

Not sure if you'd truthfully like to have McCann on the team now or whether you are just cherry picking stats, but in any case it is unfair to judge Pearson after 8 games (in which he hasn't looked bad)

You wouldn't want a 22 year old center/Left wing,  who has just put up 17 goals and 31 points this season.  This team is desperate for a scoring, the fact that he can also play LW and has a bit of an edge to him makes him even more appealing to what this team needs.  Pearson hasn't looked bad but he's also on a downward trajectory just like Spooner.  

 

2 hours ago, joe-max said:

Not sure how you calculated that, but the team has won a total of 140 games since 2014/215, which is an average of 35 wins per season. This puts them in 26th place (27th if you include Vegas) ahead of the Oilers, Hurricanes, Coyotes and Sabres. The are one win behind the Devils and two behind Colorado.

I stated the last four years (that include this year).  If you're looking for the math, in the last 4 years we've played 318 games and have 122 wins to show for it.  That's a 38.3% winning percentage and the worst in the league.  Sabres are the next in line with 124 wins in there last 318 games which is a 38.99% winning percentage.  I'll state it again. Canucks have been the worst team in the league over the last 4 years.   

 

2 hours ago, joe-max said:

By balance I mean having a healthy team spirit and a solid leadership group that helps the young players along the way, you know, young, developing players like Horvat, Baertschi, Virtanen, Hutton, Stecher, EP, Boeser... It is easy to argue each one would have turned out the same or better if the team had fully bottomed out, but nobody knows, and I believe Horvat and Baertschi benefitted a lot from having the Sedins, Burrows or Higgins around for a while.

 

There is bottom feeding like Colorado in 16/17 and there is being competitive for the majority of the season but not withstanding injury issues due to inexperience and a lack of depth. Sure, Horvat is frustrated and needs to reach the playoffs rather sooner than later, but having a 75 point season is still much more winning than a 50 point season.

Ok, so let's use the Av's as examples, are the young, Mackinnon (91 points this year), Rantanen (87 points this year), and Landeskog (69 points this year) affected?  They all seems like that season had absolutely zero impact on there careers and better yet the AV got an top end puck moving D prospect out of it.,

 

 

2 hours ago, joe-max said:

My theory: If Benning had really gone full rebuild, sold off as many veterans as he could for draft picks, retained his own piicks and not traded for the middle age group (Baertschi and co), he would not be GM any more. After two seasons of 55 points the fanbase would have panicked, called for some heads rolling and Aquilini would have done it. He decided to steer a middle course between being semi-decent while restocking the prospect pool. The team has been improving slowly but steadily. It's not spectacular, but the direction is good.

You're probably right, that he wouldn't have been here still.  Just like we saw what happened with WD, when the team wasn't meeting its semi decent status.  but then again, i think part of the reason JB is in so much heat is because the lack of clarity.  Had they came out and did what the leafs did, or the rangers,  there might have been a bigger leash.  Again I don't really blame JB for the direction of the team that's FA. but I do feel that had we embraced the rebuild we'd be farther along that we are today.  So many teams have tried that shortcut route and have failed.  All GM's now always talk about how there's no shortcuts in rebuilding, but that seems like the path we tried to take.  

 

2 hours ago, joe-max said:

JB isn't perfect. The Tryamkin situatino could have been handled better, not sure if I like the Dahlen trade, he misjudged Eriksson, but I wouldn't say the future is bleak. Actually it is quite promising.

And i'm not saying he's terrible, I just disagree with the path we took.

[Tomatoes11]

Funny how the Homer’s laugh about the reaction for mcaan and forsaking like they are insignificant jokes but praise garbage like Baertschi and motte. That’s hilarious. Anyone in their right mind would prefer Mcaan and forsling over those plumbers lol

[crazycry]

why even list Kesler in the first place? Kesler wanted out while submitting a list of teams he wanted to go to... the other team is going to low ball you hard with that situation. 

Yes, there were some very very questionable signings (LE) and trades, but most of what JB traded away aren't even in the NHL (or not making big impact) atm....

[Topcheeze86]

draft guru.........just....wait 

[Tomatoes11]

6 minutes ago, crazycry said:

why even list Kesler in the first place? Kesler wanted out while submitting a list of teams he wanted to go to... the other team is going to low ball you hard with that situation. 

Yes, there were some very very questionable signings (LE) and trades, but most of what JB traded away aren't even in the NHL (or not making big impact) atm....

Kesler trade was really shady. Took so long because he held out for Bonino when they could have easily gotten Theodore because Ducks probably wanted Bonino for their playoff run. 

[5Fivehole0]

@Toews before we continue, I actually want to apologize for being crass. You weren't even the one I was annoyed with, but regardless there was no need for me to be an donkey about it.

[5Fivehole0]

57 minutes ago, Sedintwinpowersactivate said:

I’m pretty sure Jake was picked 6th.  But I agree that I liked Ehlers better.  I’ll give JB that one because when I see Jake skate you can see the special quality that JB saw.  Also we had to try a local kid.  Remember that power forwards develop later.....

I still think Jake will take another big step next year. He's only 22 and already a main stay on an NHL team. He has shown top 6 potential and is arguably the 2nd or 3rd fastest skater in the NHL already. Like I said, I'm happy with both... A lot of people are sleeping on OJ on this board.

[Drakrami]

4 hours ago, 5Fivehole0 said:

He traded players who are no longer in the NHL for players who are in the NHL. Those are clear cut wins. If you were a fan of the other teams you would want that GMs head. He took less valuable players and got more valuable players. It doesn't matter if he traded 1 for 2 or a 2 for a 4, he still won those trades clearly. The only one still in the air would be the Baertschi trade which I feel was a win for both teams. Baerstchi wanted out and Calgary landed a good pick in the 2nd round.

Missing the point again. Result is everything. If your so called "wins" are any good, we would be a better team currently, not #7 counting from the bottom and up. Hes been our GM for 5 years you know, all those "wins" and we are still a crap team?