JB has thrown away far too many assets - needs to be replaced as GM

[Drakrami]

1 hour ago, crazycry said:

why even list Kesler in the first place? Kesler wanted out while submitting a list of teams he wanted to go to... the other team is going to low ball you hard with that situation. 

Yes, there were some very very questionable signings (LE) and trades, but most of what JB traded away aren't even in the NHL (or not making big impact) atm....

Because that's exactly why Benning is a poor GM in trading. Duchene was also very difficult to trade, he created so much crap to demand getting traded Forsberg who is usually quiet openly criticized him. Yet Sakic is able to land a monster deal for Duchene - this is what a good GM can navigate and deal the best value for his team; it literally took like 1 1/2 years to trade Duchene. 

 

All Benning had to do was hold onto Kesler, time will pass, opportunties woulda opened with TDL, draft with other teams offering deals. Benning was just impatient to leave his mark on the team and open a new page and dealt Kesler for pieces that we now have nothing to show for. Kesler was the one with his time running out, Benning had the cards in his hands and didn't know how to play it. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Drakrami

[5Fivehole0]

36 minutes ago, Drakrami said:

Missing the point again. Result is everything. If your so called "wins" are any good, we would be a better team currently, not #7 counting from the bottom and up. Hes been our GM for 5 years you know, all those "wins" and we are still a crap team? 

I agree with your sentiments on Kesler, but those trades people are scrutinizing are mostly Benning turning GMMG busts and expiring NHLers into servicable YOUNG nhlers who show promise and line up with the rebuild timeline.

 

To sum it up, and please answer honestly, given their production after the trade, no anecdotals or hypothetical. Would you trade...

 

Goldobin 4th(?) for Hansen

Granlund for Shinkaruk

Baertschi for 2nd(Rasmus Anderson)

Dahlen for Burrows

Motte Jokinen for Vanek

 

He made the team better with what he had. That is good value for the leftovers we traded away. Dont know what else you think you could've got. 

 

I guess next time he should let them walk like Hamhuis?

Edited March 18, 2019 by 5Fivehole0

[Monteeun]

On 3/16/2019 at 10:34 PM, Generational.EP40 said:

Again, reread what I said.

 

What does anything I said have to do with Benning drafted Pettersson? You’re not the brightest I take it.

I love how u bypass the ones that dismantled your post....

[lmm]

7 hours ago, aGENT said:

Time? Not sure what that has to do with my post you quoted about leverage for attracting free agents but...

 

The right time to sign Gagner was when the Sedins were retiring and we thought Pettersson was likely another year (or two) away.

 

Happy luck for us that Pettersson was ready this season and Gagner was no longer required.

 

 

 

 

you seem to be trying really hard not to understand anything today,

so I will slow this down for you.

Gagner signed a $.650 contract when he had something to prove

Columbus got  a good deal on a motivated player

If Vancouver had that contract they could have flipped it at the trade deadline

this method works better than signing players after they have a breakout or bounceback season

the Canucks signed Gagner after the bounceback season and paid too much, then traded Gagner for another player who is overpaid and not likely to bring back any return

[lmm]

6 hours ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

answer this: 

When is the right time to sign player A?
A). 2016 (after 16 points in 2015-16)

B). 2017 (after 50 points in 2016-17)

A).

 

Loui E had 3 - 70 pt seasons in Dallas, then 3 sub 50 pt seasons in Boston, then a bounceback 63 pt season in Boston. So Jim gave the 31 year old a 6x6 contract

Gagner had 8 - 37-49 pt seasons then 16 pt in Philly , then 50 in Columbus. Columbus got 50 pts for $.650 they got the good play and the good contract

Guber played 2 years with Willie Mitchell and Brian Campbell so Jim trades for him and expects him to "shelter" Ben Hutton

 

I would say the best signing was Gagner fro $.650 when he was desparate to show he still belonged in the league

[canuck_in_england]

On 3/16/2019 at 9:15 PM, Generational.EP40 said:

That manager inexperience? To continue, he hasn’t been able to commit to a plan or vision since day1. A rebuild was clear as day but the R word was never uttered until Linden became president. Prior to that he dodged it like the plague and would never admit it. Thought he could fast track by trading picks in the beginning when those picks could’ve been paying dividends for us right now. Too much flip flopping between ideologies. Remember “meat & potatoes”? That died shortly but then he couldn’t fully let it go either as evident by drafting Virtanen coming off a major surgery...he just couldn’t help himself. Even now, we struck gold with EP. Rebuild was endorsed but now that we got lucky and EP has fast forwarded that timeline, he thinks we can fight for a playoff(WC) spot. The man can’t help himself and begins jumping the gun too easily, can’t stay focused on the mission. 

 

 

Actually he thinks (or thought) we could fight for a playoff spot with the current players without trading some big assets at the trade deadline. I would say that's called staying the course

[Drakrami]

5 hours ago, 5Fivehole0 said:

I agree with your sentiments on Kesler, but those trades people are scrutinizing are mostly Benning turning GMMG busts and expiring NHLers into servicable YOUNG nhlers who show promise and line up with the rebuild timeline.

 

To sum it up, and please answer honestly, given their production after the trade, no anecdotals or hypothetical. Would you trade...

 

Goldobin 4th(?) for Hansen

Granlund for Shinkaruk

Baertschi for 2nd(Rasmus Anderson)

Dahlen for Burrows

Motte Jokinen for Vanek

 

He made the team better with what he had. That is good value for the leftovers we traded away. Dont know what else you think you could've got. 

 

I guess next time he should let them walk like Hamhuis?

Yeah those are value generating trades.

 

He concentrated too much on forward though. There's probably no market for trading for a young defensemen, look at the Hall trade. He shoulda went all in the UFA market and sign a dman or 2. Overpay, who cares, a great dman goes a long way to solidify our team. 

[40Dangles]

Heee heee heee,

 

Heee heee heee

 

SMH

 

[GreyHatnDart]

8 hours ago, Alflives said:

Maybe the OP should change his thread title?  I don’t think JB should be fired, but I’m not liking the trading away of picks in the first three rounds during the rebuilding phase.  I don’t see why we can’t disagree with some stuff, but still like the overall job?

I keep reading this kind of thing so I went and looked at the drafts since 2014. 

He’s down 2 2nd rounders and 4 4ths. 

He’s up a 1st, a 2nd, a 5th and a 7th. 

By my math he’s down 2 picks out of 35 over 5 years. As far as your point about trading away picks from the first 3 rounds, he’s down 1 2nd but acquired a 1st... if anything he’s improved the first 3 rounds of drafting during his tenure. 

[UFCanuck]

Let me guess, you’re a 1040 listener arent you.

[vannuck59]

JB drafting is suspect at best lets take a look at his first round hits and misses

Draft 1 , 2014,Pick #6  Jake Virtanen , consensus  pick average 13th, on the board BPA (Fleury, Ehlers, Nylander, Ritchie) Miss

Pick # 24 Jared McCnan , consensus pick average 11th on the board BPA ( Pastrnak ,Scherbak) both rated in the 20 to 25 range HIT 

Draft 2, 2015 Pick # 23 Brock Boeser, consensus pick 23 on the board BPA (nailed it took who he should have.)

Draft 3, 2016 Pick # 5 Olli Joulevi, consensus pick 7 , on the board BPA ( Matthew Tkackuk) a big mistake

Draft 4, 2017 Pick # 5 Elis Pettersson consensus pick 12th on the board BPA ( none) Big win

Not to bad after all , Joulevi may pan out , Virtanen is a 3rd line player at best

[Alflives]

40 minutes ago, GreyHatnDart said:

I keep reading this kind of thing so I went and looked at the drafts since 2014. 

He’s down 2 2nd rounders and 4 4ths. 

He’s up a 1st, a 2nd, a 5th and a 7th. 

By my math he’s down 2 picks out of 35 over 5 years. As far as your point about trading away picks from the first 3 rounds, he’s down 1 2nd but acquired a 1st... if anything he’s improved the first 3 rounds of drafting during his tenure. 

I think JB gave up seconds for Vey, Baer, and Sutter.  Plus, there was a third for Dorset.  And, of course, McCann (a young prospect, and recent first)

Yes, JB added picks, but that’s what I (philosophically) believe a rebuilding team should do.  Add picks to your already allotted 7, especially in the first three rounds.  But don’t trade them away.  Use those picks to build your next core of top end talent.  

[Alflives]

40 minutes ago, GreyHatnDart said:

I keep reading this kind of thing so I went and looked at the drafts since 2014. 

He’s down 2 2nd rounders and 4 4ths. 

He’s up a 1st, a 2nd, a 5th and a 7th. 

By my math he’s down 2 picks out of 35 over 5 years. As far as your point about trading away picks from the first 3 rounds, he’s down 1 2nd but acquired a 1st... if anything he’s improved the first 3 rounds of drafting during his tenure. 

I think JB gave up seconds for Vey, Baer, and Sutter.  Plus, there was a third for Dorset.  And, of course, McCann (a young prospect, and recent first)

Yes, JB added picks, but that’s what I (philosophically) believe a rebuilding team should do.  Add picks to your already allotted 7, especially in the first three rounds.  But don’t trade them away.  Use those picks to build your next core of top end talent.  

[SingleThorn]

8 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Kesler trade was really shady. Took so long because he held out for Bonino when they could have easily gotten Theodore because Ducks probably wanted Bonino for their playoff run. 

Any chance of a link to this 'fact' ? For some reason I can hear David Pratt saying 'What we know for sure is that DimSumJim could have easily gotten Theodore.....' ! Really, this is new to me. Very interesting if true. Did I miss something or has this been dragged from the derriere zone ?

[GreyHatnDart]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I think JB gave up seconds for Vey, Baer, and Sutter.  Plus, there was a third for Dorset.  And, of course, McCann (a young prospect, and recent first)

Yes, JB added picks, but that’s what I (philosophically) believe a rebuilding team should do.  Add picks to your already allotted 7, especially in the first three rounds.  But don’t trade them away.  Use those picks to build your next core of top end talent.  

I listed the net losses and additions of picks. Yes he traded 2nds, but also gained picks back, and is at a net loss of 2 picks during his tenure. 

 

Of course it would’ve been nice to have acquired extras in the first 3 rounds but people act as if this is easy to do and as if we had plenty of expendable assets to do so. Which players were we had been able to move for these picks you’re wishing to acquire?

 

He’s acquired plenty of picks as well as trading them, it’s all listed here: 

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_team/Vancouver_Canucks/1

[Alflives]

10 minutes ago, GreyHatnDart said:

I listed the net losses and additions of picks. Yes he traded 2nds, but also gained picks back, and is at a net loss of 2 picks during his tenure. 

 

Of course it would’ve been nice to have acquired extras in the first 3 rounds but people act as if this is easy to do and as if we had plenty of expendable assets to do so. Which players were we had been able to move for these picks you’re wishing to acquire?

 

He’s acquired plenty of picks as well as trading them, it’s all listed here: 

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_team/Vancouver_Canucks/1

I think we agree that JB added picks.  I don’t think he should have traded them away, but used them instead.  Those extra picks could mean we have 2 Gaudettes, 2 Maddens, 2 Linds, etc.  The more picks, especially in those first three rounds, the more likely we get another elite piece in our next core.  

[GreyHatnDart]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

I think we agree that JB added picks.  I don’t think he should have traded them away, but used them instead.  Those extra picks could mean we have 2 Gaudettes, 2 Maddens, 2 Linds, etc.  The more picks, especially in those first three rounds, the more likely we get another elite piece in our next core.  

We could also have any of the hundreds and hundreds of guys that never amount to anything. Hindsight is a beautiful thing, and trades like Vey for a 2nd clearly didn’t work out. Remember, there was also a huge age gap missing from our team when Benning came in, and the trades for Vey and Baertschi were attempts to fill that gap. Also remember, the aim of the franchise at that point was very different than it is now, as far as “re-tooling on the fly” to now rebuilding. Nothing of any real consequence was going to change until the Sedins retired imo. 

[aGENT]

6 hours ago, lmm said:

you seem to be trying really hard not to understand anything today,

so I will slow this down for you.

Gagner signed a $.650 contract when he had something to prove

Columbus got  a good deal on a motivated player

If Vancouver had that contract they could have flipped it at the trade deadline

this method works better than signing players after they have a breakout or bounceback season

the Canucks signed Gagner after the bounceback season and paid too much, then traded Gagner for another player who is overpaid and not likely to bring back any return

Ok captain hindsight 

 

Who's to say we could have even signed Gagner when you apparently wanted to? (Love to see you quote some old posts of yours arguing to sign him that of season).

 

There's many reasons he took less to go to CBJ that year.

 

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, GreyHatnDart said:

I keep reading this kind of thing so I went and looked at the drafts since 2014. 

He’s down 2 2nd rounders and 4 4ths. 

He’s up a 1st, a 2nd, a 5th and a 7th. 

By my math he’s down 2 picks out of 35 over 5 years. As far as your point about trading away picks from the first 3 rounds, he’s down 1 2nd but acquired a 1st... if anything he’s improved the first 3 rounds of drafting during his tenure. 

Why is being even the success bar you think a rebuilding team should be measured by. Coming out even should be the absolute minimum a team hits, the fact that we haven’t been able to do so is a fail.

 

For example Detroit who is also currently rebuilding has made more picks in the last two years than Jim’s first three years combined. If coming out -2 is what you call a success than what do you think about DET being +7. That’s the equivalent of an extra years worth of drafting. 

 

I keep hearing people state the “how were we supposed to obtain picks with all those NMC’s Gillis handed out”. We’ll many of the picks JB moves were ones he already acquired. Pick up a 2nd for garrison then he traded it for vey, pick up a 3rd in the kes trade and then trade it away for Dorsett, pick up a 2nd for juice and add it to the sutter deal. 

 

The issue wasnt just about obtaining picks, JB picked up a bunch, the issue is that we’ve moved out 4x 2nd round picks, 2x 3rd round picks, 2x fourth round picks, 2x 5th round picks and a 6th round pick all in the first 24 months. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by ForsbergTheGreat

[spur1]

28 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Why is being even the success bar you think a rebuilding team should be measured by. Coming out even should be the absolute minimum a team hits, the fact that we haven’t been able to do so is a fail.

 

For example Detroit who is also currently rebuilding has made more picks in the last two years than Jim’s first three years combined. If coming out -2 is what you call a success than what do you think about DET being +7. That’s the equivalent of an extra years worth of drafting. 

 

I keep hearing people state the “how were we supposed to obtain picks with all those NMC’s Gillis handed out”. We’ll many of the picks JB moves were ones he already acquired. Pick up a 2nd for garrison then he traded it for vey, pick up a 3rd in the kes trade and then trade it away for Dorsett, pick up a 2nd for juice and add it to the sutter deal. 

 

The issue wasnt just about obtaining picks, JB picked up a bunch, the issue is that we’ve moved out 4x 2nd round picks, 2x 3rd round picks, 2x fourth round picks, 2x 5th round picks and a 6th round pick all in the first 24 months. 

Nothing more than the cost of doing business.