[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[komodo0921]

9 hours ago, Rindiculous said:

So I’ve seen some opinions from the other side on NHL Instagram .  A lot of Lightning fans hate the trade.  They say that Miller is one of the only players on their team to do something every night which I’m really liking.  Since some on both sides hate the trade I’m thinking it’s pretty even in value.  I’m looking forward to seeing a second version of Horvat on our team.  This really sets us in the right direction making sure we have all our pieces at the same time.  We can’t do everything by drafting and this is the perfect time to go for the playoffs with the cap this year.  Get cheaper UFAs and get players like Miller in trade and start being a playoff contender.  I’m excited!

This was my first thought when I read his scouting reports (didn't know much about him).

A workhorse who plays all three forward positions and does have some grit to his game. 

He's been north of 50 pnts twice in his career and came very close last season. oh, and he did a lot of that in a bottom six role..

Yes, dealing Miller provides much needed cap relief for Tampa but it's not a normal capdump in that he still has four years left on his current deal at a very favorable AAV.

This is another great cap hit that gives JB the flexibility to add without seriously hindering the pending mega-deal we all know is coming for Petey.

From Miller's point of view, he should be excited to be coming to a team where he's going to be a key piece to our future and all indications are that he is.

He's going to be a fixture in our top-six, playing with two of the best young centers in the game for years to come.

This is a great hockey deal and is one that gives us much needed offensive punch to our top-six.

There is going to be a thread asking for bold predictions for the 2019-2020 season.

I'm going to start early by saying Miller will eclipse 60 pnts for the first time in his career and will be instrumental on us making the playoffs next season.

By next draft, I'm going to be saying the given first was a pick well spent.

 

[Bure_Pavel]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

How long, exactly do you want Petey, boes, Bo, QH and OJ to lose for?

 

Do you think they will think that's fun, will it encourage to stay loyal to an org that is in a perpetual losing cycle?

We were trending in the right direction already just needed to stay the course, and continue to improve the team through the good drafting (1st rounders), good value trades, and smart free agency signings. Most of the players you mentioned we have their right for another 6 years.

[stawns]

Just now, Bure_Pavel said:

We were trending in the right direction already just needed to stay the course, and continue to improve the team through the good drafting (1st rounders), good value trades, and smart free agency signings. Most of the players you mentioned we have their right for another 6 years.

And a first rounder, likely a later pick won't be NHL ready until 2025ish.......about the time the young core is sick of playing for a franchise who won't support them.

 

No team is built solely through the draft......not a single one.

[danaimo]

35 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Not the same Horvat is a much better player with a higher ceiling.

Okay, Quantify it.  What price do you think Horvat is worth ?  How much would you like to see coming back the other way.  What's the bare minimum? 2 firsts? 2 firsts and a 2nd? 3 firsts?  The comparison between Miller and Horvat is a pretty good one.  I think you are undervaluing Miller.

[18W-40C-6W]

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

His stats showed he was given a far more defensive role and he played it exceedingly well.   

He’s a heck of a 2 way player. We just got a big Burrows in his prime to play with our two best players. Also, while he’s not a fighter, he will throw down and is good to have on Petey’s wing. He’s not going to shy away from protecting our franchise. End of the day, people can piss and Moan about the first but I bet if it was Hayes they wouldn’t say boo, and may even be cheering. Personally, I think a lot of this backlash is because a lot of people were like “who”? And didn’t really know this guy’s game and figure, if they don’t know his name and game, he’s not worth a first.

 

a 50 pt, 14 min third liner is going to get 70 pts on the first line with Petey, with 18 mins a night and provide the size, mucking and 2 way play that will only open the game up even more for his 2 talented line mates. I can’t wait to revisit this thread in a year. I have a feeling it may become as legendary and that do we really need burrows one! 

 

https://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/131589

Edited June 24, 2019 by 18W-40C-6W

[Bure_Pavel]

11 minutes ago, stawns said:

And a first rounder, likely a later pick won't be NHL ready until 2025ish.......about the time the young core is sick of playing for a franchise who won't support them.

 

No team is built solely through the draft......not a single one.

A lottery pick in 2021 could be ready in 2022, not saying don't make trades just try not to lose them. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Bure_Pavel

[Rob_Zepp]

2 minutes ago, 18W-40C-6W said:

He’s a heck of a 2 way player. We just got a big Burrows in his prime to play with our two best players. Also, while he’s not a fighter, he will throw down and is good to have on Petey’s wing. He’s not going to shy away from protecting our franchise. End of the day, people can piss and Moan about the first but I bet if it was Hayes they wouldn’t say boo, and may even be cheering. Personally, I think a lot of this backlash is because a lot of people were like “who”? And didn’t really know this guy’s game and figure, if they don’t know his name and game, he’s not worth a first.

 

a 50 pt, 14 min third liner is going to get 70 pts on the first line with Petey, with 18 mins a night and provide the size, mucking and 2 way play that will only open the game up even more for his 2 talented line mates. I can’t wait to revisit this thread in a year. I have a feeling it may become as legendary and that do we really need burrows one! 

JT Miller's points per minute last season, in a checking line role and VERY little PP time, were essentially equivalent to Sean Couturier and was BETTER than (random selection of names people will notice) Kevin Hayes, Brock Boeser,  Mathew Barzel, Filip Forsberg, Kyle Connor, Jeff Skinner, Ryan Johansen, Josh Bailey, Evander Kane etc. etc.    Compare those contracts and also their point totals.   

[Rob_Zepp]

6 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

A lottery pick in 2021 could be ready in 2022, not saying don't make trades just try and not to lose them. 

Agreed and why this one is a protected pick....if they are both lottery picks next two years, yes the dice was rolled and it didn't work...but then only if they do well in the lottery as a 15th or so pick still is unlikely to do more in their career than Miller already has.

[18W-40C-6W]

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

JT Miller's points per minute last season, in a checking line role and VERY little PP time, were essentially equivalent to Sean Couturier and was BETTER than (random selection of names people will notice) Kevin Hayes, Brock Boeser,  Mathew Barzel, Filip Forsberg, Kyle Connor, Jeff Skinner, Ryan Johansen, Josh Bailey, Evander Kane etc. etc.    Compare those contracts and also their point totals.   

But DiM JiMz BaNnInGs GaVe Up OuR WiNnInG LoTtOz!

[stawns]

6 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

A lottery pick in 2021 could be ready in 2022, not saying don't make trades just try and not to lose them. 

Well they went from 5th to 7th to 10th and had they managed to stay healthy would have been in the playoff race.  So, it's highly unlikely that our solid young core craps the bed as they get more experience and more support players, like Miller and whomever they sign in UFA.

 

IMO, the hand wringing over this is irrational and is more just the projections of a certain elements of insecure fans.  I fully expect them to be in the playoffs next season and a regular playoff participant for a long time to come.

[18W-40C-6W]

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Agreed and why this one is a protected pick....if they are both lottery picks next two years, yes the dice was rolled and it didn't work...but then only if they do well in the lottery as a 15th or so pick still is unlikely to do more in their career than Miller already has.

And miller was a 15th pick. We just get a sure thing vs a maybe 5 years down the road.

 

its clear the nucks know they can now start pushing the peddle to win. They want these kids to learn to win together and need to provide them help. What did Kesler and the twins need for so long? Well Jim is doing what we needed many years back,  now. And it’s the right time and a brilliant move. 

[Maginator]

I dont care what anyone says, I like this trade.

 

Filling a need. It's a first round pick... which will probably be at least pick #17. Yeah you might find and absolute gem at #17, but you can also find an absolute plug.

 

I'm happy with this trade. He fits our roster well. I'm excited to see him playing with Petey or Brock.

[Bure_Pavel]

11 minutes ago, stawns said:

Well they went from 5th to 7th to 10th and had they managed to stay healthy would have been in the playoff race.  So, it's highly unlikely that our solid young core craps the bed as they get more experience and more support players, like Miller and whomever they sign in UFA.

 

IMO, the hand wringing over this is irrational and is more just the projections of a certain elements of insecure fans.  I fully expect them to be in the playoffs next season and a regular playoff participant for a long time to come.

For me the following teams are gonna be hard to finish above: SJ, COL, STL, NAS, WIN, CAL, and VGS that leaves one wild card spot in the west. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Bure_Pavel

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, TU90 said:

Guy is directly comparable to Horvat in multiple ways. How would we feel if we traded Bo for a protected 1st and a 3rd?

Been describing him as Horvat-light since the trade

1 hour ago, Darius said:

If the Canucks miss the playoffs next year they keep the pick.  So that gives us

 

2020 1st

Podkolzin

Hughes

Pettersson

Boeser

Horvat

Juolevi

Demko

 

To build around.  At what point is it enough?  In 2021 Bo will be 26, and will be closer to 30 by the time the player they could have drafted in 2021 could make an impact.  

 

So what is management supposed to do? Let this team languish in the basement while the core keeps losing, the gate sales keep dropping, just so that we can keep accumulating draft day trophies?

 

At some point they have to hit the gas pedal on this build, they have gambled that by 2021 they will be ready for playoff action (a FULL DECADE SINCE LAST PLAYOFF SUCCESS) and I am fine with it.  Its time to hit the gas.

 

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, stawns said:

Not really, they're trending upwards and a top 6 fwd and top 4 d added to this core will go a long way, not to mention who they might add next year.  It's time to push for success.

It's like people don't think this team's going to progress at ALL (and in fact regress)  over the next couple years even with adding guys like Miller, a likely UFA D (or two), more kids coming on board that we've already drafted and developed, Tryamkin likely returning etc, etc.

 

If we're still a bottom 10 team in '21, we have FAR bigger problems than giving up our 1st for a player who's...wait for it...worth a 1st.

 

26 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

A lottery pick in 2021 could be ready in 2022, not saying don't make trades just try not to lose them. 

See above. In 21, we'll have been rebuilding for 7'ish years...it's time.

 

16 minutes ago, stawns said:

Well they went from 5th to 7th to 10th and had they managed to stay healthy would have been in the playoff race.  So, it's highly unlikely that our solid young core craps the bed as they get more experience and more support players, like Miller and whomever they sign in UFA.

 

IMO, the hand wringing over this is irrational and is more just the projections of a certain elements of insecure fans.  I fully expect them to be in the playoffs next season and a regular playoff participant for a long time to come.

I'll be perfectly happy with playoffs next year but the dream would be to just miss and FINALLY win the lotto for a top 3 pick, jumping up the 12-15 spots and killing it the year following  Come on hockey gods! We're due!

 

I'd also accept nabbing a Barzal, Smith or McAvoy etc there too

Edited June 24, 2019 by aGENT

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

For me the following teams are gonna be hard to finish above: SJ, COL, STL, NAS, WIN, CAL, and VEG that leaves one wild card spot in the west. 

And the Canucks, if they stay healthy, will be right in the mix.  

 

SJ's window is closing, Calgary is sketchy and the Jets and Knights are coming back down to earth, imo.  The cycle of playoff teams is straying to turn over, I'd much prefer the Canucks to be a team ready to fill the voids left by some of the teams sinking.  Pretty sure there young core would agree

[18W-40C-6W]

25 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

A lottery pick in 2021 could be ready in 2022, not saying don't make trades just try not to lose them. 

Sure you don't like giving up the first but a mid to late first is market value, the third and goalie are junk.  You have to give to get. JB is betting that this team is ready for the playoffs now, and they need to be, its just that simple. Are you playing hockey to win, or playing to win the lottery and find this 'savior' everyone thinks we'll eventually get. We have a superstar that should have gone first overall. People just want to say "YES we finally got first overall!". Who cares? We got Petey, we got a first overall at 5th. Time for the boys to start winning. I want to see Bo and Jake in the playoffs, see Petey compete, etc. We have too many fans who want to win the lottery more than they want our team to win games.

[Bure_Pavel]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

And the Canucks, if they stay healthy, will be right in the mix.  

 

SJ's window is closing, Calgary is sketchy and the Jets and Knights are coming back down to earth, imo.  The cycle of playoff teams is straying to turn over, I'd much prefer the Canucks to be a team ready to fill the voids left by some of the teams sinking.  Pretty sure there young core would agree

As much as I hate them Calgary had 107 points last year, not exactly sketchy. 

[Bure_Pavel]

 

1 minute ago, 18W-40C-6W said:

Sure you don't like giving up the first but a mid to late first is market value, the third and goalie are junk.  You have to give to get. JB is betting that this team is ready for the playoffs now, and they need to be, its just that simple. Are you playing hockey to win, or playing to win the lottery and find this 'savior' everyone thinks we'll eventually get. We have a superstar that should have gone first overall. People just want to say "YES we finally got first overall!". Who cares? We got Petey, we got a first overall at 5th. Time for the boys to start winning. I want to see Bo and Jake in the playoffs, see Petey compete, etc. We have too many fans who want to win the lottery more than they want our team to win games.

So wait for next year when you know what position you are drafting and trade the pick then for a top six guy like St. Louis did with Brayden Schenn. Instead of taking a page out of the Dorian handbook.

[Silver Ghost]

51 minutes ago, Shift-4 said:

Can't believe how many people rate an unknown higher than a known

Sad, isn't it? This is the Canucks though and they have a habit of making the worst case scenario happen.

 

I personally think the only real risk of the 1st being included is that it freezes up 2 years of 1st round picks from being utilized to acquire an impact dman.

 

[18W-40C-6W]

15 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

For me the following teams are gonna be hard to finish above: SJ, COL, STL, NAS, WIN, CAL, and VGS that leaves one wild card spot in the west. 

And if we don't make it this year, we keep our pick!

 

And then the following year, you have STL aging out, Nashville aging out, Vegas aging out and in cap hell with few picks, Winnipeg is going to get weaker this year due to cap, and 2 years down the road Buff and Wheeler are not going to be the same players.