Maketherightmove Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, Ur a Towel said: They were fighting for a playoff spot this season through all the injuries they had. Do you see anything to say they won't within the next 2 years? Our young players will have 1 or 2 years more of experience, we have a few young prospects that could be pushing onto our roster to help by then and do you see the Pacific getting any stronger? Calgary should be up there, Vegas will be too, San Jose is aging but should still be competing for one, Anaheim is on the decline, LA is rebuilding and has a ton of older players they will need to get rid of, Edmonton is Edmonton... Benning saw a chance for a player that we desperately needed and took it before anybody else could. If that cost is a 1st round pick, then so be it. As others have stated, if we aren't even fighting for a playoff spot in the next 2 years then we have bigger problems than this pick to worry about. They were 9 points from a playoff spot and 10 points from dead last in the conference. I wouldn't say that's exactly on the verge of the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Just now, Bure_Pavel said: Or like a Brock Boeser, who knows right... Miller's certainly a different player but he's honestly not that far off in value to a 'Boeser'. Perhaps this is why you're having so much trouble with this as you're undervaluing what a player like Miller brings. Boeser will almost certainly score more goals/is a better goal scorer. Compared to Boeser though he's got a far better two way game, a heavier game, better skater, can play all 3 F positions (great for injuries etc), can PK and 2PP. He's also likely to be cheaper. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Ghost Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Bure_Pavel said: I'm not sure why so many people are offended that I don't think it is a good trade, you wont find too many non biased publications saying we duped Tampa on this trade. I also didn't see too many proposals prior to the draft suggesting that we trade our first round pick in 2020. I amnot offended at all. Whether it is a good trade or not wont be determined for a year or two really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) Took a while to digest this. I think it was a bad trade for a few reasons. - Almost all the risk is on our end. If everything goes perfectly for us and this ends up a 20th or later pick next year, Tampa is still happy with the trade and we can say it was fair. If we gave up a lottery pick, then no one can argue it was a good trade. - it looks like with a 1st round pick, a 3rd round pick, and $12+ million in cap space we are going to end up with J.T. Miller and Myers. You would have a hard time convincing me that there weren’t a large number of deals/signings out there in combination that net us better players at both positions. Does a 1st and 3rd get you any of Ristolainen, Hamilton, Pesce, etc? Does it get you Gusev and Colin Miller... still leaving you $5+ million in cap space to recoup a 1st round pick by eating a salary like Marleau? Could you trade the 1st and 3rd for Gusev and Colin Miller, and then sign Anders Lee (a much better forward than J.T.). Could you eat Marleau’s salary for a 1st, and then swap that, our 1st, and a 3rd for Provorov who is still not signed? There are many combinations that net us out better. - JB has now put himself in a bad leverage spot with Myers. There are few top 4 D available and everyone on the planet knows we need one of them badly, especially because we don’t dare go into the season with the same D and increase the risk of our first is worth more to Tampa. None of this has anything to do with whether Jay Miller is a good player or fit. He is certainly an upgrade. Realistically though, we don’t know if he will be a winger on our top line or our 3rd line centre. He could have been buried behind depth in Tampa and just needs the chance to become a consistent 25 goal, 50+ point guy. Then again, maybe they only reason his point totals are as good as they were in Tampa is that he only ever had to face the opposition’s 3rd pairing D, because they had a lot bigger things to worry about than him. Worst case, we gave up a top lottery pick plus a sweetener for a slight upgrade in Sutter. Best case, we paid full retail value on an average top 6 player. Edited June 24, 2019 by Provost 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maketherightmove Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, aGENT said: Miller's certainly a different player but he's honestly not that far off in value to a 'Boeser'. Perhaps this is why you're having so much trouble with this as you're undervaluing what a player like Miller brings. Boeser will almost certainly score more goals/is a better goal scorer. Compared to Boeser though he's got a far better two way game, a heavier game, better skater, can play all 3 F positions (great for injuries etc), can PK and 2PP. He's also likely to be cheaper. Completely different players and it's not really fair to compare them. I would say (assuming he's re-signed to a reasonable deal) BB would bring a hell of a lot more in a trade than the Canucks paid for Miller. Pure goal scoring is one of the hardest things to find and it's valued very highly around the league. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure_Pavel Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 1 minute ago, aGENT said: Miller's certainly a different player but he's honestly not that far off in value to a 'Boeser'. Perhaps this is why you're having so much trouble with this as you're undervaluing what a player like Miller brings. Boeser will almost certainly score more goals/is a better goal scorer. Compared to Boeser though he's got a far better two way game, a heavier game, better skater, can play all 3 F positions (great for injuries etc), can PK and 2PP. He's also likely to be cheaper. Not even close, Boeser had a higher pts/game and goals/game in his rookie season then Miller has in his career. Boeser is a future 40 goal scorer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure_Pavel Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) I see the 2015 draft as similar in talent as the 2020 draft. the picks from 16-18 in that year were Barzal, Conner, and Chabot. Not saying the same quality players will be there next year but definitely a risk. There are usually some gems from 16-20 and would have preferred to let Judd do his thing. Maybe grab another potential top pairing dman. Edited June 24, 2019 by Bure_Pavel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losing With Pride Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Darius said: If the Canucks miss the playoffs next year they keep the pick. So that gives us 2020 1st Podkolzin Hughes Pettersson Boeser Horvat Juolevi Demko To build around. At what point is it enough? In 2021 Bo will be 26, and will be closer to 30 by the time the player they could have drafted in 2021 could make an impact. So what is management supposed to do? Let this team languish in the basement while the core keeps losing, the gate sales keep dropping, just so that we can keep accumulating draft day trophies? At some point they have to hit the gas pedal on this build, they have gambled that by 2021 they will be ready for playoff action (a FULL DECADE SINCE LAST PLAYOFF SUCCESS) and I am fine with it. Its time to hit the gas. Okay but then I look at a team like Colorado that has: MacKinnon Landeskog Rantanen Barrie Girard Newhook Makar Byram Timmins Kamenev Jost Bowers Grubauer Colorado 2020 1st Round Pick I don't see Joe Sakic trading away 1st round picks. He knows the capabilities of his team and the closest thing to mortgaging the future was the trade for Brassard for a third round pick. They are a stronger team than us and have more prospect depth than we do. (Yes I get a lot of it was from the Duchene trade) That's the kind of depth you want when you start trading away first round picks. I can't see anyone being happy with this team just making the playoffs and losing out in the first round. If Colorado added JT Miller to their offence, it would make a lot more sense than us. (Colorado was an offside away from making the Western Finals. We can't even come close to making the playoffs) But alright, I'll go with the people on this board raving on how the Miller trade was a move in the right direction. Hopefully he can put up 25 goals and/or 50 points. Edited June 25, 2019 by Losing With Pride 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Maketherightmove said: Completely different players and it's not really fair to compare them. I would say (assuming he's re-signed to a reasonable deal) BB would bring a hell of a lot more in a trade than the Canucks paid for Miller. Pure goal scoring is one of the hardest things to find and it's valued very highly around the league. 2 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said: Not even close, Boeser had a higher pts/game and goals/game in his rookie season then Miller has in his career. Boeser is a future 40 goal scorer. Like I said, Boeser's a better scorer. And those guys get paid. as Make^^ mentioned, those guys are highly valued. Doesn't mean Miller's not just as important (and more versatile) of a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said: Not even close, Boeser had a higher pts/game and goals/game in his rookie season then Miller has in his career. Boeser is a future 40 goal scorer. Boeser can score and that's about it........not discounting how good he is at that, but he doesn't bring other elements to the table the way Miller does. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Losing With Pride said: (Yes I get a lot of it was from the Duchene trade) And with all the depth we're steadily building (which includes Miller BTW), it's likely not long before we're going to be able to start making our own 'Duchene' trades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur a Towel Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, Maketherightmove said: They were 9 points from a playoff spot and 10 points from dead last in the conference. I wouldn't say that's exactly on the verge of the playoffs. I'm not disagreeing with you here and I'm not saying this move was fantastic by any means as it does carry SOME risk but with the way our division is trending and with us trending upwards, it's hard to not imagine us making the playoffs in 1 of the next 2 years. We can't really fairly judge this trade for another 4 or 5 years anyways, but I'm excited that we have yet another top 6 player that's worth the risk of that pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losing With Pride Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 23 hours ago, captainhorvat said: We basically gave up a mid to late 1st rounder for a fast tracked former 1st round pick in his prime. People just dont get it... People get it. It's not a guaranteed mid to late 1st rounder. That is the issue. If the pick was lottery protected both years, I would completely understand. The issue is that it leaves us exposed. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanukfanatic Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Analyst82 said: That is according to you... You think horvat cracks top 6 in Tb? I don't think so! I love horvat and I think he will be better but judging Miller on Tampa is not fair to him. You don't think Horvat would be in Tampa's top 6 forward lineup? Please explain more: Edited June 24, 2019 by Kanukfanatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure_Pavel Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, stawns said: Boeser can score and that's about it........not discounting how good he is at that, but he doesn't bring other elements to the table the way Miller does. He just turned 22, and actually has a decent 2 way game. In two years the difference in players will be apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 36 minutes ago, appleboy said: I know who is confused and who isn't . That's why I don't answer that kind of stuff. Anyone who can't figure out that we might give up a top 3 pick in 2020 OR 2021 wouldn't understand it if you explained it to them. 34 minutes ago, aGENT said: That the team, despite adding MIller (+ whoever else we add the next two years) Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes, Demko etc, etc having a couple years under their belts, more prospects like OJ, Rathbone, Woo, Hoglander, Lind, perhaps Podkolzin etc contributing on the team, Tryamkin returning etc, etc, etc...that's not only have we not improved, we've in fact regressed two years from now. If that's the case, we have FAR bigger problems than paying a first for a player worth a first (and likely more if TBL didn't HAVE to move someone/cap). Okay but you still havent stated what the problems would be? It comes down to making the playoffs in the next 2 years. Are the issues that could prevent us from doing that not already apparent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said: Okay but you still havent stated what the problems would be? It comes down to making the playoffs in the next 2 years. Are the issues that could prevent us from doing that not already apparent? Yeah, I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maketherightmove Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ur a Towel said: I'm not disagreeing with you here and I'm not saying this move was fantastic by any means as it does carry SOME risk but with the way our division is trending and with us trending upwards, it's hard to not imagine us making the playoffs in 1 of the next 2 years. We can't really fairly judge this trade for another 4 or 5 years anyways, but I'm excited that we have yet another top 6 player that's worth the risk of that pick. If the Canucks were on the brink and needed one more top-6 or even a really exceptional 3rd liner I'd love the deal. It's nothing to do with Miller at all I think he's a great player that has many positive aspects to his game. I just think it is a bizarre move for a squad in the position that the Canucks are currently in to make. That said, I hope JB shores up the D, the young guys continue to impress and our goal tending becomes one of the best tandems in the league and we make a legit run at the playoffs in the next two years. I want this deal to end up being fine because I want this team to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, aGENT said: Yeah, I did. You said if the team regresses or doesn't improve. Thats obvious. But what could cause that to be the case? (is what im asking) To me those issues are already apparent. What im getting at here, is just saying "then there bigger problems" isnt justification, its just pointing out the obvious. Theres nothing wrong with liking the trade. I like the move in that were getting a great player, but there is some risk involved that cant just be ignored or brushed aside either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRypien37 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 1st round pick that will likely still be in the top 10-15? Jesus... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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