Benning trying to get to "common ground" with Boeser

[Toews]

2 hours ago, stawns said:

It's a discussion about contracts and boesers contract sets the table for the next four big ones (petey, Hughes Bo and bows again).  Comparing them is how agents and management will determine the dollar amounts.

 

If Boesers demands are well beyond where he is as a player, then I'm open to a move where they likely get a first and top 4 dman back, which then allows you to move a dman for a Boeser replacement.  If he wants $7m now, then one of the big three will have to go in the next 2-3 years anyway, as being that top heavy closes the window to win.

Again you are still stuck in the past. RFAs aren't looking to the salaries on just their team to look for a number to negotiate, you can't pretend to operate a team in a vacuum anymore. Players and their agents are looking around the league for contracts with comparable age and production. Pettersson won't give af what Boeser or Bo are being paid, he will look at what other franchise C with his production are being paid. This isn't 2010 when you can tell everyone to fall in behind the Sedins' cap hit. Look at Benning's quote...

 

Quote

We are trying to get to some common ground. None of the RFAs have signed yet...

The very first thing he says after "common ground" is that the other RFAs haven't signed yet because this will give them a sense of where the market will settle at. The market for Boeser will be determined what comparable players his age, production and position are getting paid, not based on some arbitrary salary model you seem to be pulling out of your you know what.

[longsuffering]

No-one wants to be first to sign the RFAs.

[JRSJ]

9 minutes ago, longsuffering said:

No-one wants to be first to sign the RFAs.

Precedent setting is bad. Just look how much power the Leafs gave RFAs with the Nylander deal. Uncharted territory now, boys.

[Viper007]

13 hours ago, stawns said:

It's relevant to the discussion don't you think?  This contract is going to be the standard that Petey, Hughes and Bo are going to use as the starter for their next contracts, and they aren't going to be cheap if Boes gets $7m. 

 

He's the low man on that totem pole, imo, and a $7m for him means $10-11m for Petey (at least), probably $7-9m for Hughes and I'll bet Bo comes in around $8-10m.......to say nothing of a third contract for BB if he gets a bridge contract.......that'll be up around $9m (at least).

 

To me, that's not sustainable and the window would currently be about 4 years from closing on this group of players.

I see your issue with this now.  You think that low-balling BB will help set an internal standard for contracts.  That's where I believe you will be wrong.  Agents don't look at comparables on the team, they look at comparables around the league.  I believe it's best to look at the situation from both parties. 

 

If you were BB, and you were getting low balled, and you see other comparable players around the league getting paid more, wouldn't you feel discouraged.  Would you feel loyal to the team?? I sure as hell wouldn't.  You gotta keep BB happy with a "FAIR" contract.  Even JB said that his comparables are Timo Meier and Kyle Connor.  We don't know Kyle Connor yet, but we know that Meier signed at 4x6 (but a BIG QO).  Meier signed that deal to help the sharks because of the cap situation.  Meier knows that he's worth more than that but because of the big QO at the end of the deal, he signed it.  We all know we don't want BB to sign a deal like that.

 

The times have changed now for RFAs.  This is how it's gonna be unfortunately.  Whether you like it or not, it doesn't matter.  We don't pay the wages.  But to say that he's not worth 6 Million and if he gets more than that you'll trade him is a load of crap, and if that's the standard you're gonna set for these players, alot of them will not stay loyal to the club.

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Pickly said:

Bo reminds me of Ryan O’Reilly and Patrice Bergeron. Not at that level yet, but with the steady improvement he’s shown each year he may not be far off. Funny thing is, you subtract the two aforementioned players from each of their teams, they probably don’t win the cup.

 

Boeser’s shot and ability to get open are what make him successful. You take away his timing and space, his effectiveness out there is neutralized. His defence is lacking and his skating is below average. He’s not a play driving winger like Ovechkin, Tarasenko, or even Kessel because of his inability to skate. 

Of course he’s not Ovechkin - only Ovi is Ovie and when he retires he might be the closest to Gretzky for most goals ever...I also think if Boeser spent his time with Malkin he’d do pretty good - Tarasenko was supposedly the next Bure but never got there.   He’s barely played 100 games in the league yet - however he’s a Calder runner up and was arguably our best player when games mattered the most last spring too.  Horvat at the same age was showing promise, he was about ready to push the Sedins and worked on his skating to become more effective.   I really don’t think Boesers skating is much at all different at the same age maybe even better.

 

Bo is a good player for a lot of reasons.  But he doesn’t have the skill set Boeser has.    I could give a rats as about “how fast he is” take one look at the all-time greatest and how much skating mattered - of course it does but you don’t have to be the fastest or best skater on the team to excel.  Horvat case in point actually.    If it came down to right now who would you rather have for the next four years and given who’s already on the team I’d take Boeser every time.  Horvat has peaked or close to peaked - Where as Boeser is just getting started.  And we are deep in Center but quality wingers aside from Boeser and Miller who plays Center too not at all.   I’m sure everything will settle in to what optics like - that is Horvat will get the C and the 50th celebrations will be fun and yes I’m a big fan of Horvat but part of that is I’ve grown very tired with Swedish captains - Linden left some big shoes to fill. 

 

But no he’s nBergeron or even Kesler.  Those guys take over games on their own and did it frequently.  Kesler almost won a gold medal for the US by far their best forward in that tournament him and Miller were otherworldly.    Of course I’d love it if Horvat demonstrated that ability more then every now and then (which is accurate). I Don’t overrate or overthink Horvats ability.  He’s not an all-star where as Boeser is (no way under the old format Horvat would get a call - where as Boeser was lighting it up - and was the MVP...)...as a rookie for crying out loud ...

[dpn1]

4 hours ago, stawns said:

Horvat and Petey are who they are building around......Hughes will probably be the third piece of that puzzle.  They are, imo, untouchable.

I totally agree.

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said:

No one is saying trade him now....its if he signs a bridge deal and his next contract demands are to much. 

Might how many shut down centres are better then bo in the nhl right now? In my books his top 15

Yes I’d agree to that.  And there are also 25 or so guys ahead of him and those guys that play a first line (a few second line like Point and Malkin) that are also ahead of him - often first lines are played against each other and the second/shut down lines don’t have to deal with the other teams best players.   I know last year with both Beagle and Sutter injured Horvat played admirably - he definitely did - most face offs in the league and won 3.5% more then he lost - pretty darn good.   Now that we have Miller center depth is one of our strengths.  Glad we have Boeser too - we need a guy who’s capable of scoring 35 plus a year and he’s our guy for that.   Boesers ceiling appears higher and that’s ok.   We need both of these guys to win a cup and I’m glad we have them.

[BrockBoester]

6 hours ago, stawns said:

 If you pay Boes, the lowest rung on their star ladder, that kind of money

Sigh

Edited August 25, 2019 by BrockBoester

[higgyfan]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

Teams that win Cups have veterans, not prospects.

Teams that win cups don't have aging Tanev, Eriksson, Sutter, Biega, etc; they win with younger vets like Meyer, Miller, Ferland, Roussel and Horvat.  Juolevi will replace Tanev; Gaudette will replace Sutter; anyone can replace Loui & Biega.  You seem to be getting a bit anal regarding this matter, stawns.

 

Pod and Hogs might very well join the team in a couple of years and both of them already have the defensive awareness.  Dare is say that Woo & Tryamkin may be available as well.  With a bit of tweaking, the support for these players will be just fine.

 

Comparing Kessel to Boeser is unfair.  Boeser is an athletic stud who is at the beginning of his developmental curve.  At this point, it is very hard to determine what his ceiling will be.  With his core strength he can shield the puck, is good in the corners and can get to the net.  He is also a pretty good back checker. His extreme work ethic and compete level makes him a sure thing to continuing developing and improving his overall game.

 

 

[IBatch]

8 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

Teams that win cups don't have aging Tanev, Eriksson, Sutter, Biega, etc; they win with younger vets like Meyer, Miller, Ferland, Roussel and Horvat.  Juolevi will replace Tanev; Gaudette will replace Sutter; anyone can replace Loui & Biega.  You seem to be getting a bit anal regarding this matter, stawns.

 

Pod and Hogs might very well join the team in a couple of years and both of them already have the defensive awareness.  Dare is say that Woo & Tryamkin may be available as well.  With a bit of tweaking, the support for these players will be just fine.

 

Comparing Kessel to Boeser is unfair.  Boeser is an athletic stud who is at the beginning of his developmental curve.  At this point, it is very hard to determine what his ceiling will be.  With his core strength he can shield the puck, is good in the corners and can get to the net.  He is also a pretty good back checker. His extreme work ethic and compete level makes him a sure thing to continuing developing and improving his overall game.

 

 

Well said.  I do agree that veterans win cups, or at least guys that have been around for four or five years (which in this league qualifies as a veteran).  Gretzky didn’t win until 84, in the midst of destroying the record books with his 200 plus point seasons (he was involved with more goals then entire teams have managed - crazy to think about) his fifth year in the league.   That’s about when our window will be the widest too with EP - four years from now - which is part of the reason I’d like to see Boeser locked in long term.  We don’t need the cap space now as much as we will then.  

[RowdyCanuck]

5 hours ago, the grinder said:

I said how did we get to the 2011 playoffs with a potent powerplay   ya  sedin like  as in center and winger . playmaker scorer   a scoring duo      ,, most offensive guys are soft  so to say  they get paid to score    lol come on gaud better than brock  give your head a shake   , yep keep beating your drum  to your own tune , because your way off beat    

I never said Guad was better now did I? I said he could replace him on the PP...don't need to shake my head but thx.

just look at probably Hawks if they can find a replacement for big buff we can find one for Brock when the time comes. 

Also I agree it's you need two top players but look at the type of wingers that are  Franchise players....I'm sorry but Brock hasn't shown enough to prove he belongs in those conversations yet....you act like I want to trade him tomorrow and that's not the case...I'm looking at if he signs a four year deal so three years away....context is everything. 

[the grinder]

6 hours ago, stawns said:

I think he's saying the both play the same spot on the PP, which is true.  However, BB is obviously the superior player there.  

 

That said, one thing I don't like about the PP set up is that Petey is probably a better one timer from the right side than Boes from the left (equal at least), but Petey usually defers to BB, opting to try to set him up rather than shoot himself.  I notice it 5v5 too and that's one of the main reasons I'd rather see Boes with Bo.

 im sure brock and petey will figure it out  , but to have 2 lethal one timer options  not many teams have that  on a pp  , yes I agree I like to have the  offense spread around a bit and we finally have options to do it now  

[Ballisticsports.]

4 hours ago, JRSJ said:

Precedent setting is bad. Just look how much power the Leafs gave RFAs with the Nylander deal. Uncharted territory now, boys.

Wasn't that the cause of the last work stoppages?

Protecting the Gm's against themselves?

 

Just because Leafs caved in to a RFA and gave him UFA as they did with Matthews (because they believed they'd win it all last year) and  after the Oilers signed McDavid is silly for all the Gm's to follow suit (It obviously did not work out for either team ) and GM's should stick to you are a RFA, prove for those years you are dependable, reliable and you will be paid even more handsomely in the near future

[stawns]

5 hours ago, Toews said:

Again you are still stuck in the past. RFAs aren't looking to the salaries on just their team to look for a number to negotiate, you can't pretend to operate a team in a vacuum anymore. Players and their agents are looking around the league for contracts with comparable age and production. Pettersson won't give af what Boeser or Bo are being paid, he will look at what other franchise C with his production are being paid. This isn't 2010 when you can tell everyone to fall in behind the Sedins' cap hit. Look at Benning's quote...

 

The very first thing he says after "common ground" is that the other RFAs haven't signed yet because this will give them a sense of where the market will settle at. The market for Boeser will be determined what comparable players his age, production and position are getting paid, not based on some arbitrary salary model you seem to be pulling out of your you know what.

You don't think the first thing they look at is the other RFA contracts on the team.  Petey will look at BB's $7m and say, "I'm worth x amount more than Brock"

[stawns]

1 hour ago, higgyfan said:

Teams that win cups don't have aging Tanev, Eriksson, Sutter, Biega, etc; they win with younger vets like Meyer, Miller, Ferland, Roussel and Horvat.  Juolevi will replace Tanev; Gaudette will replace Sutter; anyone can replace Loui & Biega.  You seem to be getting a bit anal regarding this matter, stawns.

 

Pod and Hogs might very well join the team in a couple of years and both of them already have the defensive awareness.  Dare is say that Woo & Tryamkin may be available as well.  With a bit of tweaking, the support for these players will be just fine.

 

Comparing Kessel to Boeser is unfair.  Boeser is an athletic stud who is at the beginning of his developmental curve.  At this point, it is very hard to determine what his ceiling will be.  With his core strength he can shield the puck, is good in the corners and can get to the net.  He is also a pretty good back checker. His extreme work ethic and compete level makes him a sure thing to continuing developing and improving his overall game.

 

 

Most of the teams who have won in the last decade would disagree

[the grinder]

1 hour ago, higgyfan said:

Teams that win cups don't have aging Tanev, Eriksson, Sutter, Biega, etc; they win with younger vets like Meyer, Miller, Ferland, Roussel and Horvat.  Juolevi will replace Tanev; Gaudette will replace Sutter; anyone can replace Loui & Biega.  You seem to be getting a bit anal regarding this matter, stawns.

 

Pod and Hogs might very well join the team in a couple of years and both of them already have the defensive awareness.  Dare is say that Woo & Tryamkin may be available as well.  With a bit of tweaking, the support for these players will be just fine.

 

Comparing Kessel to Boeser is unfair.  Boeser is an athletic stud who is at the beginning of his developmental curve.  At this point, it is very hard to determine what his ceiling will be.  With his core strength he can shield the puck, is good in the corners and can get to the net.  He is also a pretty good back checker. His extreme work ethic and compete level makes him a sure thing to continuing developing and improving his overall game.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Well said.  I do agree that veterans win cups, or at least guys that have been around for four or five years (which in this league qualifies as a veteran).  Gretzky didn’t win until 84, in the midst of destroying the record books with his 200 plus point seasons (he was involved with more goals then entire teams have managed - crazy to think about) his fifth year in the league.   That’s about when our window will be the widest too with EP - four years from now - which is part of the reason I’d like to see Boeser locked in long term.  We don’t need the cap space now as much as we will then.  

my two cents  I agree with both of you   a winning team begins with drafting , draft your core surround with vets . The  core ages you start replacing the sutters beagle Roussel benns  will  youth ,.  we are so lucky to have two great centers  a scoring winger  a off dman     sounds like 2011   hank, danny, kesler and erhoff  ,( disclaimer   no 2 players are the same   they are similar  skill wise and position wise   )   ie like kessel to boeser   lol    

[IBatch]

7 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Wasn't that the cause of the last work stoppages?

Protecting the Gm's against themselves?

 

Just because Leafs caved in to a RFA and gave him UFA as they did with Matthews (because they believed they'd win it all last year) and  after the Oilers signed McDavid is silly for all the Gm's to follow suit (It obviously did not work out for either team ) and GM's should stick to you are a RFA, prove for those years you are dependable, reliable and you will be paid even more handsomely in the near future

Agreed. That system has worked for many decades, since salary disclosure back in the early nineties..   Don’t think there is anything that can be done about it at this point, already AHO was offer sheeted but I must say I’m impressed at the solidarity or game of chicken the GMs have played so far with the remainging guys, not one of the rest is signed yet.   Maybe, just maybe one of these athletes will sign and set the bar back to where it should be, and a few others will follow - if that’s the case then bravo.   Doubt it will happen....

 

Long term I doubt that teams can afford to pay both their RFA and UFA stars big money and stay competitive - and I’m not sure the NHLPA will have the stomach for it either (a select few making most of the pie).   GMs can’t help themselves they’ve proved that hundreds of times over, now the cap is starting to experience the same thing again.  Bet buy-outs will get approved again next CBA which will help somewhat - strongly feel that they should add some cap restrictions on RFAs too ( and don’t see the NHLPA voting against this as its only a select few benefiting the way things are going). Make it 10% of the cap...seems more then fair to me.

[stawns]

1 hour ago, higgyfan said:

Teams that win cups don't have aging Tanev, Eriksson, Sutter, Biega, etc; they win with younger vets like Meyer, Miller, Ferland, Roussel and Horvat.  Juolevi will replace Tanev; Gaudette will replace Sutter; anyone can replace Loui & Biega.  You seem to be getting a bit anal regarding this matter, stawns.

 

Pod and Hogs might very well join the team in a couple of years and both of them already have the defensive awareness.  Dare is say that Woo & Tryamkin may be available as well.  With a bit of tweaking, the support for these players will be just fine.

 

Comparing Kessel to Boeser is unfair.  Boeser is an athletic stud who is at the beginning of his developmental curve.  At this point, it is very hard to determine what his ceiling will be.  With his core strength he can shield the puck, is good in the corners and can get to the net.  He is also a pretty good back checker. His extreme work ethic and compete level makes him a sure thing to continuing developing and improving his overall game.

 

 

Kessel is about as good a comparable to Boes as there is.  First round pick (though Kessel was fifth oa), both not superb skaters, but lights out shooters, both avg defensively but mostly one dimensional, albeit outstanding at the one dimension.  Kessel had been one of the most consistent scorers in the last decade, you make it seem like an insult to compare them.

[the grinder]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

You don't think the first thing they look at is the other RFA contracts on the team.  Petey will look at BB's $7m and say, "I'm worth x amount more than Brock"

lol  yes that would be a agents job to look at any contract  signed by any player with any team  , bb could get paid 5 million  and peteys agent will go look a marners contract I want 10  anyways  , so did bb contract affect peteys asking  price no   

[stawns]

11 minutes ago, the grinder said:

lol  yes that would be a agents job to look at any contract  signed by any player with any team  , bb could get paid 5 million  and peteys agent will go look a marners contract I want 10  anyways  , so did bb contract affect peteys asking  price no   

The thing so many people seem to not see is that RFA's don't have that kind of bargaining leverage, especially ones like Boeser with no arbitration rights.  He can hold out and that's it.

 

For all the talk about his character I don't exactly see Boes thinking about the teams future the way Bo did.