Benning trying to get to "common ground" with Boeser

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, Pickly said:

Don’t even try and compare the two. You subtract Bo from this team and it sets-them back another couple years. Boeser is great but nowhere near as important as Horvat. 

Subtract Boeser from the team and we have zero quality wingers to work with.  Subtract Horvat from the lineup and we could put Miller on the second line and add another quality winger or defenseman.  Horvat is replaceable internally at this point, where as Boeser is absolutely not.   I would say they are both very important to the team, and part of Horvats importance is he’s low hanging fruit for a trade in the future to fill a need ... 

[RowdyCanuck]

25 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Imagine what EP Horvat Boeser could do together on one line...

 

I agree that as of right now with Bo in his peak prime years that he’s the better players then Boeser - only because he plays a more important position and his 200 foot game is at a higher level.  That said what Boeser did his two years in the league compared to what Bo did at the same age I’d give the edge to Boeser.  He’s not as bad all around as some on this site suggest, arguably our best forward in March last year.   His skating is getting better and maybe it’s EPs game running off on him but he also gets back to help the D more then his rookie campaign (expect TG has a little to do with that too).   When Boeser is in his prime in a few years he could be scoring 40-50 goals and well over a PPG guy (again if expect EP could have something to do with that) IF that happens he’d definitely become our second best and most important forward.  Also the idea that these guys (Kessel, Tarasenko types) are easy to find is a bit ridiculous because they are not easy to find at all, and aren’t available through free agency without a huge price tag (see Skinner and he’s a tier down from Kessel).   

 

I don’t like at all that RFS are getting the big bucks right away, but can live with it - and hope Benning locks him in long term (7 x 7-8).    He’s going to have a huge third contract if he scores 40-50 a couple times within the next four years which I think he can do.   With LE and Luongo putting the screws into our cap for three years and that also coinciding with our best window (in three years) wouldn’t you rather still have Boeser locked in for a couple of those peak years rather then both his and Horvats contracts up at the same time?  Smells like a rebuild starting all over again with a very small window with these guys brewing in the works right now (Podz first two season only).   Ugh.  It is what it is.  Boeser at 6 x 4 would be ok, but give the guy 1-1.5 more and locking him up long term is a way better scenario for the team IMO, bridge deals rarely work out for the team - see Kucherov - Subban - Price. 

There's how many top six wingers in every draft? Also tarasenko is not easily replaced the guys a bull and also Kessel has been a secondary core piece , leafs thought he was a top tier guy and that didn't work out. 

With Jims drafting we could follow a similar plan as the Hawks. 

Signing ufas don't work unless they take a discount like a few players have with the Hawks and other top teams. 

Might add like said petey and bo both could make decent wingers look great like they do in Pitts. 

[RowdyCanuck]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Subtract Boeser from the team and we have zero quality wingers to work with.  Subtract Horvat from the lineup and we could put Miller on the second line and add another quality winger or defenseman.  Horvat is replaceable internally at this point, where as Boeser is absolutely not.   I would say they are both very important to the team, and part of Horvats importance is he’s low hanging fruit for a trade in the future to fill a need ... 

No one is saying trade him now....its if he signs a bridge deal and his next contract demands are to much. 

Might how many shut down centres are better then bo in the nhl right now? In my books his top 15

Edited August 25, 2019 by RowdyCanuck

[-DLC-]

I wish we didn't do this - pit our players against each other in a "he's better than".   It's not as easy as that....better at what?  With who?  Are they just back from injury or worn out from carrying the load?   Better is a moving target in this deal.

 

I feel that all the players being discussed are important to this team...don't undermine the impact of Brock in this line up...as this new core is starting to develop they're all important pieces of the puzzle.   Which is why we're seeing this process dragging out...let him go and it changes some of the dynamics of the team moving forward.  He's a character guy and beyond that, bonds have been formed.  Off ice stuff is very complimentary to the on ice stuff.

You can't just plug players in and out and go...it's a delicate balance and the right fit is important.   Brock is important, so to suggest we just move on/away from him is removing a pretty valuable piece of the puzzle we're putting together.

 

This is a sign of the times and how difficult these contract negotiations are becoming.  Remember, there are agents involved and they get a cut and so are also protecting their interests.  They play hardball but it doesn't necessarily reflect what the player is willing to do in the end...that will reveal itself at some point.  I think some paint players in a negative light during this process but it's just what it is.   

[stawns]

30 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

I wish we didn't do this - pit our players against each other in a "he's better than".   It's not as easy as that....better at what?  With who?  Are they just back from injury or worn out from carrying the load?   Better is a moving target in this deal.

 

I feel that all the players being discussed are important to this team...don't undermine the impact of Brock in this line up...as this new core is starting to develop they're all important pieces of the puzzle.   Which is why we're seeing this process dragging out...let him go and it changes some of the dynamics of the team moving forward.  He's a character guy and beyond that, bonds have been formed.  Off ice stuff is very complimentary to the on ice stuff.

You can't just plug players in and out and go...it's a delicate balance and the right fit is important.   Brock is important, so to suggest we just move on/away from him is removing a pretty valuable piece of the puzzle we're putting together.

 

This is a sign of the times and how difficult these contract negotiations are becoming.  Remember, there are agents involved and they get a cut and so are also protecting their interests.  They play hardball but it doesn't necessarily reflect what the player is willing to do in the end...that will reveal itself at some point.  I think some paint players in a negative light during this process but it's just what it is.   

It's a discussion about contracts and boesers contract sets the table for the next four big ones (petey, Hughes Bo and bows again).  Comparing them is how agents and management will determine the dollar amounts.

 

If Boesers demands are well beyond where he is as a player, then I'm open to a move where they likely get a first and top 4 dman back, which then allows you to move a dman for a Boeser replacement.  If he wants $7m now, then one of the big three will have to go in the next 2-3 years anyway, as being that top heavy closes the window to win.

[-DLC-]

12 minutes ago, stawns said:

It's a discussion about contracts and boesers contract sets the table for the next four big ones (petey, Hughes Bo and bows again).  Comparing them is how agents and management will determine the dollar amounts.

 

If Boesers demands are well beyond where he is as a player, then I'm open to a move where they likely get a first and top 4 dman back, which then allows you to move a dman for a Boeser replacement.  If he wants $7m now, then one of the big three will have to go in the next 2-3 years anyway, as being that top heavy closes the window to win.

You state it like it's A = B....

 

"Likely get a first and top 4 dman".    Come on now, you told people you understand more about hockey than they do but this doesn't demonstrate that.  You're connecting dots that aren't quite that easy.  "Should" doesn't mean "will".

 

There are half a dozen contracts expiring in that span.  Closes the window to win?  How?

 

Comparing them is fine but, again, each player will bring different things to the table and you may use starting points but you have to adjust up and down based on so many things.  It's not just "he gets that so I get that".

[stawns]

11 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

You state it like it's A = B....

 

"Likely get a first and top 4 dman".    Come on now, you told people you understand more about hockey than they do but this doesn't demonstrate that.  You're connecting dots that aren't quite that easy.  "Should" doesn't mean "will".

 

There are half a dozen contracts expiring in that span.  Closes the window to win?  How?

 

Comparing them is fine but, again, each player will bring different things to the table and you may use starting points but you have to adjust up and down based on so many things.  It's not just "he gets that so I get that".

Same way it closes everyone else's window who overpays RFA players with zero bargaining power.  You drop 40-50% of you cap on 3-4 players and you have to start finding support players in the bargain bin.  You win Cups because you can afford to go out and find solid veteran support and that costs money.  If you pay Boes, the lowest rung on their star ladder, that kind of money, you'd better win in the next 3-4 years or you become Edmonton, Toronto, Buffalo

 

Are there exceptions like Pit?  Of course, but Vancouver doesn't have a generational talent like Sid.

Edited August 25, 2019 by stawns

[dpn1]

Horvat's contract is considered a cap friendly contract much like Miller's contract.  I can't see Jim moving him.

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, dpn1 said:

Horvat's contract is considered a cap friendly contract much like Miller's contract.  I can't see Jim moving him.

Horvat and Petey are who they are building around......Hughes will probably be the third piece of that puzzle.  They are, imo, untouchable.

[the grinder]

3 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Well Torres hit and burrows goal against the Hawks were huge and kesler going beast mode against the preds helped. So yea I watched ha 

next Sedins twins ? God I hope not I don't want soft hockey anymore... Yes I watched three on three and I remember a lot of scoring off the rush or looking back door/ drop pass. 

You make me laugh cause your right centres need wingers but once they price them selfs out of the team cap , bye bye and thx for the first and prospect.....

Ive given you examples of teams that trade good young players once they ask for to much and keep on winning but you keep banging that same old drum....the one timer...Guad has a good one timer and so does petey but who knows who we draft in the next couple years. 

I said how did we get to the 2011 playoffs with a potent powerplay   ya  sedin like  as in center and winger . playmaker scorer   a scoring duo      ,, most offensive guys are soft  so to say  they get paid to score    lol come on gaud better than brock  give your head a shake   , yep keep beating your drum  to your own tune , because your way off beat    

[stawns]

1 minute ago, the grinder said:

I said how did we get to the 2011 playoffs with a potent powerplay   ya  sedin like  as in center and winger . playmaker scorer   a scoring duo      ,, most offensive guys are soft  so to say  they get paid to score    lol come on gaud better than brock  give your head a shake   , yep keep beating your drum  to your own tune , because your way off beat    

I think he's saying the both play the same spot on the PP, which is true.  However, BB is obviously the superior player there.  

 

That said, one thing I don't like about the PP set up is that Petey is probably a better one timer from the right side than Boes from the left (equal at least), but Petey usually defers to BB, opting to try to set him up rather than shoot himself.  I notice it 5v5 too and that's one of the main reasons I'd rather see Boes with Bo.

[higgyfan]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

It's a discussion about contracts and boesers contract sets the table for the next four big ones (petey, Hughes Bo and bows again).  Comparing them is how agents and management will determine the dollar amounts.

 

If Boesers demands are well beyond where he is as a player, then I'm open to a move where they likely get a first and top 4 dman back, which then allows you to move a dman for a Boeser replacement.  If he wants $7m now, then one of the big three will have to go in the next 2-3 years anyway, as being that top heavy closes the window to win.

At the moment, it is really difficult to assess what Boeser's value is, as so many rfa's are still unsigned.  There is little doubt that he will be a consistent 30-40 g player, but as a W he has less value than a C or D of similar skillset.  It's hard to imagine a player like Brock signing for much less than 7m; probably for a short term 'show me' contract ($6m), but certainly not a 7yr term.

 

My preference would be to have him locked in long term (7yr@$7m).  He's a far better player than Nylander, and has  more or less value of other unsigned rfas wingers (Rantanen, Conner, Laine, Tkachuck).

 

I don't have the concerns you have regarding signing other star players because...

 

-In 2 years when Pete/Quinn signs, there will be +22m contracts terminating.  Players that will be easily replaced by prospects (Sutter, Baertschi, Pearson, Eriksson (last year buyout), Benn, Edler (more difficult to replace).

 

-Hockey is becoming very popular south of the border, with more and more American players becoming stars.  It is probable that the salary cap will continue to grow over the next few years.

 

 

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

At the moment, it is really difficult to assess what Boeser's value is, as so many rfa's are still unsigned.  There is little doubt that he will be a consistent 30-40 g player, but as a W he has less value than a C or D of similar skillset.  It's hard to imagine a player like Brock signing for much less than 7m; probably for a short term 'show me' contract ($6m), but certainly not a 7yr term.

 

My preference would be to have him locked in long term (7yr@$7m).  He's a far better player than Nylander, and has  more or less value of other unsigned rfas wingers (Rantanen, Conner, Laine, Tkachuck).

 

I don't have the concerns you have regarding signing other star players because...

 

-In 2 years when Pete/Quinn signs, there will be +22m contracts terminating.  Players that will be easily replaced by prospects (Sutter, Baertschi, Pearson, Eriksson (last year buyout), Benn, Edler (more difficult to replace).

 

-Hockey is becoming very popular south of the border, with more and more American players becoming stars.  It is probable that the salary cap will continue to grow over the next few years.

 

 

Petey and QH will likely take up the vast majority of that $22m........then there's Bo and likely a massive third deal for Boeser.

 

It's not about whether they can afford to keep their young stars, it's about all the veteran support players they won't be able to afford because 4 players are taking up a huge chunk of the cap.

[Pickly]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Subtract Boeser from the team and we have zero quality wingers to work with.  Subtract Horvat from the lineup and we could put Miller on the second line and add another quality winger or defenseman.  Horvat is replaceable internally at this point, where as Boeser is absolutely not.   I would say they are both very important to the team, and part of Horvats importance is he’s low hanging fruit for a trade in the future to fill a need ... 

Bo reminds me of Ryan O’Reilly and Patrice Bergeron. Not at that level yet, but with the steady improvement he’s shown each year he may not be far off. Funny thing is, you subtract the two aforementioned players from each of their teams, they probably don’t win the cup.

 

Boeser’s shot and ability to get open are what make him successful. You take away his timing and space, his effectiveness out there is neutralized. His defence is lacking and his skating is below average. He’s not a play driving winger like Ovechkin, Tarasenko, or even Kessel because of his inability to skate. 

[-DLC-]

2 hours ago, stawns said:

Of course, but Vancouver doesn't have a generational talent like Sid.

 

2 hours ago, stawns said:

Horvat and Petey are who they are building around......Hughes will probably be the third piece of that puzzle.  They are, imo, untouchable.

I wish I had your ability to predict into the future and figure it all out in advance.  Sure, you try to plan accordingly, but...

 

Petey could very well end up BEING a generational talent like Sid.  We don't really know yet what we do/don't have.   In that same breath...Quinn.  You're already assessing him based on ?

 

So you can't barrel along like this listing, in order of importance.  Time will tell and, in the meantime, Brock's a pretty important piece even if in the top 4-5.  I'm not saying give him exactly what he wants or don't be cautious and to abandon the future for today.   If nothing else, I do believe this management has learned about acting impulsively and throwing money around in deals that could have a long term impact. But I'm saying...don't write Brock off so easily as you're doing.  He's worth careful consideration in all of this...you're already cashing in on a trade for him.  And, as a hockey guy I'm sure you understand that top 4 d men are extremely hard to come by (d wins championships and all), as are top picks.  So your comment really undermines the difficulty in acquiring those things from other teams....no one's willing to part with them so easily.

[higgyfan]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

Petey and QH will likely take up the vast majority of that $22m........then there's Bo and likely a massive third deal for Boeser.

 

It's not about whether they can afford to keep their young stars, it's about all the veteran support players they won't be able to afford because 4 players are taking up a huge chunk of the cap.

It's hard to say what Pete/Quinn values will be in 2yrs.  Bo is looking like a Ryan O'Reilly type, so may end up with a large $.

 

Regardless, the players that will be leaving are vets, but not a huge part of the support system and as I suggested, they can be easily replaced by prospects.  With their departure (24m) and the usual growth in salary cap (2x3m), the remaining $ under the cap will be around $30m.  The team will still have vets Meyer, Miller, Ferland, Roussel, Beagle, Stecher and a couple of lesser pieces.  Bo would be considered a vet as well, while Pete would have 3 seasons under his belt.

 

Still not worrying about the future. 

[-DLC-]

6 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

It's hard to say what Pete/Quinn values will be in 2yrs.  Bo is looking like a Ryan O'Reilly type, so may end up with a large $.

 

Regardless, the players that will be leaving are vets, but not a huge part of the support system and as I suggested, they can be easily replaced by prospects.  With their departure (24m) and the usual growth in salary cap (2x3m), the remaining $ under the cap will be around $30m.  The team will still have vets Meyer, Miller, Ferland, Roussel, Beagle, Stecher and a couple of lesser pieces.  Bo would be considered a vet as well, while Pete would have 3 seasons under his belt.

 

Still not worrying about the future. 

Exactly my thinking, well said!

[JM_]

If Brock wanted Timo Meier's exact deal I don't think it would really make a difference in terms of what Petey gets. Petey looks like he'll be very close to max salary anyway so I think Petey is in a class by himself on this team. 

 

Meier's getting 6 mil AAV, with each year being 4, 4, 6 and then 10 mil in his last year so that his qualifying offer will be big. Its the price of getting these star kids on a reasonable AAV. 

 

If we get Brock on this deal and he's priced out of our cap he'd be a nice piece to move in year 4 for new assets. Or maybe things work out that we're able to keep him because we've got so many ELCs that make it to the team. 

 

We just don't know yet but I'd be fine with the Meier deal for Brock whatever way it goes. 

[stawns]

9 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

It's hard to say what Pete/Quinn values will be in 2yrs.  Bo is looking like a Ryan O'Reilly type, so may end up with a large $.

 

Regardless, the players that will be leaving are vets, but not a huge part of the support system and as I suggested, they can be easily replaced by prospects.  With their departure (24m) and the usual growth in salary cap (2x3m), the remaining $ under the cap will be around $30m.  The team will still have vets Meyer, Miller, Ferland, Roussel, Beagle, Stecher and a couple of lesser pieces.  Bo would be considered a vet as well, while Pete would have 3 seasons under his belt.

 

Still not worrying about the future. 

Teams that win Cups have veterans, not prospects.

[stawns]

12 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

 

I wish I had your ability to predict into the future and figure it all out in advance.  Sure, you try to plan accordingly, but...

 

Petey could very well end up BEING a generational talent like Sid.  We don't really know yet what we do/don't have.   In that same breath...Quinn.  You're already assessing him based on ?

 

So you can't barrel along like this listing, in order of importance.  Time will tell and, in the meantime, Brock's a pretty important piece even if in the top 4-5.  I'm not saying give him exactly what he wants or don't be cautious and to abandon the future for today.   If nothing else, I do believe this management has learned about acting impulsively and throwing money around in deals that could have a long term impact. But I'm saying...don't write Brock off so easily as you're doing.  He's worth careful consideration in all of this...you're already cashing in on a trade for him.  And, as a hockey guy I'm sure you understand that top 4 d men are extremely hard to come by (d wins championships and all), as are top picks.  So your comment really undermines the difficulty in acquiring those things from other teams....no one's willing to part with them so easily.

I certainly didn't say Brock wasn't an important piece, and I'm not writing anyone off.  I love BB and most definitely want him to stick around, but $7m for a guy who you don't notice unless he scores is ridiculous.  He's a great scorer, he's just not one of the three you build around..........much like Kessel.  You need those guys, but you don't break the bank on him because it sets an unsustainable precedent when the franchise players are up for new contracts.

 

If you don't think BB, someone you obviously consider on the cusp of franchise player status, would bring back a first and a top 4 day man, why in God's name would you give him $7m now when he's got zero bargaining leverage?