Benning trying to get to "common ground" with Boeser

[RowdyCanuck]

What's confusing @bree2 @Cup2022 

Right now Brock is a 30 goal scorer with good hockey IQ and a great shot but his skating holds him back and sorry but you can replace him as it stands today. 

[longsuffering]

Beware the Erickson long term over optimism. Love Boeser but he still has a lot to prove in the NHL. Excited to see what he can do this year  but really! does he have it long term... imo not proven yet.

 

[the grinder]

3 hours ago, theo5789 said:

sBut you were suggesting that Aho's contract would screw the Leafs even more as a response to the suggestion that we should pay more for Boeser.

 

The point is Aho's contract doesn't do that because cap-wise, it's a decent deal. If Aho signed this same deal offered by Carolina, then it may have reset the market a bit. Unfortunately because it was an offer sheet it was made under different circumstances (which likely Carolina wouldn't have done themselves). No team is offering a heavily front loaded deal that buys just the RFA years.

 

You're suggest that Aho's contract means Marner should only get 10 and maybe that what he should be getting, but Matthews and Nylander are also players that have bearing on the market that inflated it back up. In this case, things don't just meet in the middle, and Marner is looking at Matthews' deal and thinking there's no way I'm taking less than that for what I provide. The other RFAs are simply waiting for this deal to happen (because Dubas has shown he will break several times) to inflate the market again.

. no it just not the leafs its league wide   cap doesn't go up  , teams are already in cap trouble as an example the leafs or the jets  ,  there hasn't been a offer sheet in 6 years  then boom a offer sheet  8.4 mill 5 years heavily front loaded  and your saying that has no effect on a rfa market  ,   is marner going accept 8..4   no   its going to be around 10   or more.  As for the jets .do  you think their 2 rfa 's are going to accept 8.4 ? id say it going to be 8.5 and up , ( isn't that what aho makes) I cant see the jets  being able to afford both players        

 

why would the canucks screw them selves and make the market worse  when mtl already  offer sheeted aho  ? , ya marner value is around 10 million according to the market if aho is worh 8,4 , but if the leafs front loaded his contract  like aho's  I bet marner would sign for a round 9 .5

[BPA]

28 minutes ago, the grinder said:

. no it just not the leafs its league wide   cap doesn't go up  , teams are already in cap trouble as an example the leafs or the jets  ,  there hasn't been a offer sheet in 6 years  then boom a offer sheet  8.4 mill 5 years heavily front loaded  and your saying that has no effect on a rfa market  ,   is marner going accept 8..4   no   its going to be around 10   or more.  As for the jets .do  you think their 2 rfa 's are going to accept 8.4 ? id say it going to be 8.5 and up , ( isn't that what aho makes) I cant see the jets  being able to afford both players        

 

why would the canucks screw them selves and make the market worse  when mtl already  offer sheeted aho  ? , ya marner value is around 10 million according to the market if aho is worh 8,4 , but if the leafs front loaded his contract  like aho's  I bet marner would sign for a round 9 .5

So what do you want BB to sign at????

[theo5789]

44 minutes ago, the grinder said:

. no it just not the leafs its league wide   cap doesn't go up  , teams are already in cap trouble as an example the leafs or the jets  ,  there hasn't been a offer sheet in 6 years  then boom a offer sheet  8.4 mill 5 years heavily front loaded  and your saying that has no effect on a rfa market  ,   is marner going accept 8..4   no   its going to be around 10   or more.  As for the jets .do  you think their 2 rfa 's are going to accept 8.4 ? id say it going to be 8.5 and up , ( isn't that what aho makes) I cant see the jets  being able to afford both players        

 

why would the canucks screw them selves and make the market worse  when mtl already  offer sheeted aho  ? , ya marner value is around 10 million according to the market if aho is worh 8,4 , but if the leafs front loaded his contract  like aho's  I bet marner would sign for a round 9 .5

It wasn't the cap hit of the offer sheet that Montreal was banking on to nab Aho. The front loading part is what they were banking on thinking they had a cheap owner. 8.4 cap hit is perfectly in line with the numbers he has produced.

 

The idea that had been proposed was to inflate the market (not that I agree with it) to mess with Toronto further. You're suggesting Aho's contract does that, but he's more at fair market value and Toronto would absolutely love it if it meant Marner can be signed for 10 million (they've acquire 10+ million in LTIR in hopes that he would). Marner is more likely seeking Matthews' 11.5 million or more because he had better numbers. I doubt a front loaded deal lowers the cap asking price because if that's all it took, Toronto would've done it already as they have a large cash flow to do so.

 

Anyway, the point here is Aho didn't inflate the market, so they didn't do what @Alflives suggested.

[86Viking]

2yr 9m bridge deal if Brock doesn't want long term. Like someone else said, his stats will likely look cushy while playing with EP, he did have similar numbers with Bo the year before tho. I actually prefer us to play him with Bo but that seems unlikely

[Cup2022]

3 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said:

What's confusing @bree2 @Cup2022 

Right now Brock is a 30 goal scorer with good hockey IQ and a great shot but his skating holds him back and sorry but you can replace him as it stands today. 

Sure there's $&!# loads of players in there early twenties that can score 30+ goals and beat Price over the shoulder like he did lol

[RowdyCanuck]

17 minutes ago, Cup2022 said:

Sure there's $&!# loads of players in there early twenties that can score 30+ goals and beat Price over the shoulder like he did lol

Okay look at it like this Marner,tarasenko , ovie , Panarin , P Kane and Kucherov , those guys are franchise wingers and there all in a tier above Brock..( also Brock hasn't scored 30+ now has he) 

also I think your thinking of petey beating price on his second try going over his left shoulder....

now if you want to look at more young guys I would take Keller, Domi , rantanen and those are just the three off the top of my head and each one brings more to table then Brock sorry....Brock could still develop into a top tier player but I haven't seen it yet. All those players I've listed can carry a line all by themselves and Brock hasn't done that yet....

[the grinder]

3 hours ago, BPA said:

So what do you want BB to sign at????

I would pay up to 7 max  for brock  if u can get  him signed longer than 4 years great if he signs for longer even better , 7 million could look like a bargain  in 4 years  kind of like horvats contract 

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said:

What's confusing @bree2 @Cup2022 

Right now Brock is a 30 goal scorer with good hockey IQ and a great shot but his skating holds him back and sorry but you can replace him as it stands today. 

With what exactly?  Hayes got 7 million and he’s scored 50 points like once (anyone - Bubbles -) reading this should be stoked at what we have Miller for - definitely worth a first and 3rd.  Boeser has way more potential then 30 goals - he’d already have two 35 ish goal seasons if he played all the games (an no he’s not injury prone / freak accident de-railed an otherwise get rookie season, which included an all-star MVP performance) and he’s just getting started. 

 

Already he’s got the best shot we’ve seen since three time first all-star team and Pearso/Lindsay winner Naslund - and how old was he again when he first broke 30?  

 

I’d expect at least he’s a consistent 30/30 guy that’s his floor - his ceiling is 50/40 - that’s Ovi territory.   How exactly do you replace that?  Skinner had a career year and now is making what 9 million for 7 years or something ridiculous...these guys don’t grow on trees, there are not many guys that score  30 goals year after year and we have one - and he’s barely started yet.

 

He should be signed for around 5, but with the new RFA crap and who’s left 7 isn’t out of sight either - not that I like it because I don’t.   Hopefully JB can get it down a bit - maybe 6.5 (as a bridge)...pretty sure it will be close to that.   It’s his next contract that worries me more - and hope we buy UFA years but not expecting we will in the end. 

 

Your undervaluing what he brings to the table - we could get a kings ransom for Boeser - but what’s the point - why get lottery tickets just hopefully just to get what we already have?  He’s the only first line winger on the team at the moment - and EP needs someone to elevate his production too - not Goldobins.

[RowdyCanuck]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

With what exactly?  Hayes got 7 million and he’s scored 50 points like once (anyone - Bubbles -) reading this should be stoked at what we have Miller for - definitely worth a first and 3rd.  Boeser has way more potential then 30 goals - he’d already have two 35 ish goal seasons if he played all the games (an no he’s not injury prone / freak accident de-railed an otherwise get rookie season, which included an all-star MVP performance) and he’s just getting started. 

 

Already he’s got the best shot we’ve seen since three time first all-star team and Pearso/Lindsay winner Naslund - and how old was he again when he first broke 30?  

 

I’d expect at least he’s a consistent 30/30 guy that’s his floor - his ceiling is 50/40 - that’s Ovi territory.   How exactly do you replace that?  Skinner had a career year and now is making what 9 million for 7 years or something ridiculous...these guys don’t grow on trees, there are not many guys that score  30 goals year after year and we have one - and he’s barely started yet.

 

He should be signed for around 5, but with the new RFA crap and who’s left 7 isn’t out of sight either - not that I like it because I don’t.   Hopefully JB can get it down a bit - maybe 6.5 (as a bridge)...pretty sure it will be close to that.   It’s his next contract that worries me more - and hope we buy UFA years but not expecting we will in the end. 

 

Your undervaluing what he brings to the table - we could get a kings ransom for Boeser - but what’s the point - why get lottery tickets just hopefully just to get what we already have?  He’s the only first line winger on the team at the moment - and EP needs someone to elevate his production too - not Goldobins.

How am I undervaluing Brock? I think his a good player but like the wingers I mentioned in my other post , right now his in a tier below Bo and petey. I like Brock but the guy hasn't cracked thirty goals yet and your putting him in the same bracket as ovie.....I'm not saying trade him this year but I'm saying his the one guy that can replaced the easiest right now. Brock is good but his no iggy  or ovie they have other elements to their game, so I don't get why you can't see his in the same tier as Kessel right now and Kessel has been traded three times now. 

Also those lottery tickets might be cheaper then Brock's  next contract and podz might replace him no one knows.. Point being the way Brock plays today his not a franchise winger that a lot of people make him out to be....his like Ladd and big buff with the Hawks good pieces for their runs but traded once the asking price was to much. 

 

I agree with the bridge deal. That's what I want too but I don't want him on a 7 mill contract if Jim can keep it lower the better.

 

Also petey doesn't need a scorer his not backstrom where he needs ovie. Petey could play great with a play maker or a scorer, could you see him with say a domi or Keller type...when I say replaced I mean his spot, there's top six wingers in every draft and nice thing about petey is he can shoot and pass and with Jim in charge for the next few seasons we will find some more wingers. 

[CanuckGAME]

13 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said:

What's confusing @bree2 @Cup2022 

Right now Brock is a 30 goal scorer with good hockey IQ and a great shot but his skating holds him back and sorry but you can replace him as it stands today. 

Oh yeah totally 30+ goal scorers are a dime a dozen in the NHL.

[RowdyCanuck]

14 minutes ago, CanuckGAME said:

Oh yeah totally 30+ goal scorers are a dime a dozen in the NHL.

Last I checked he hasn't reached 30 yet.... The way he plays today he is replaceable, he could develop into a franchise player but as of right now his not there yet, there's a few wingers I would pick to build a team around before him. 

[stawns]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

With what exactly?  Hayes got 7 million and he’s scored 50 points like once (anyone - Bubbles -) reading this should be stoked at what we have Miller for - definitely worth a first and 3rd.  Boeser has way more potential then 30 goals - he’d already have two 35 ish goal seasons if he played all the games (an no he’s not injury prone / freak accident de-railed an otherwise get rookie season, which included an all-star MVP performance) and he’s just getting started. 

 

Already he’s got the best shot we’ve seen since three time first all-star team and Pearso/Lindsay winner Naslund - and how old was he again when he first broke 30?  

 

I’d expect at least he’s a consistent 30/30 guy that’s his floor - his ceiling is 50/40 - that’s Ovi territory.   How exactly do you replace that?  Skinner had a career year and now is making what 9 million for 7 years or something ridiculous...these guys don’t grow on trees, there are not many guys that score  30 goals year after year and we have one - and he’s barely started yet.

 

He should be signed for around 5, but with the new RFA crap and who’s left 7 isn’t out of sight either - not that I like it because I don’t.   Hopefully JB can get it down a bit - maybe 6.5 (as a bridge)...pretty sure it will be close to that.   It’s his next contract that worries me more - and hope we buy UFA years but not expecting we will in the end. 

 

Your undervaluing what he brings to the table - we could get a kings ransom for Boeser - but what’s the point - why get lottery tickets just hopefully just to get what we already have?  He’s the only first line winger on the team at the moment - and EP needs someone to elevate his production too - not Goldobins.

Ovie?  C'mon man.  He's much much closer to Kessel than Ovie, and theres absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Ballisticsports.]

1 hour ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Last I checked he hasn't reached 30 yet.... The way he plays today he is replaceable, he could develop into a franchise player but as of right now his not there yet, there's a few wingers I would pick to build a team around before him. 

But, it makes no sense to get them, even if the team would trade  them and the price to acquire them and Brock is someone we already have

 

Brock hasn't produced  those numbers as of yet, and I don't think paying high on potential is worth the risk, when you have RFA protection

 

Just because Dumbass did that and wanted to be a hero for bringing a cup to TO did , does not mean the market is set

Gm's only have to point to that very example and say and how well did that work out for them?

 

I think the pressure to sit young stars would be too much for a gm and owner, especially if the team was struggling though

 

We need to build a team of players that wanna be here and paid fair

[BPA]

4 minutes ago, stawns said:

Ovie?  C'mon man.  He's much much closer to Kessel than Ovie, and theres absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I would agree that BB projects to be in the Kessel model/tier/whatever.  A very good elite sniper but not a player that is generally considered a franchise winger.  I would be OK with BB signing a long term deal at 7/8yr x $7M (or max $7.5M).  The market has shifted to RFAs making $$.

 

If it's a bridge contract, then the $$ has to come down a bit to reflect the shorter term.  I would be OK with 3/4yr x $6M (or max $6.5M).

[Duodenum]

A bridge contract would be a terrible idea. 

 

We've got an actual offensive dman in the line-up now in Hughes, another competent one in Myers, a new playmaker in Miller, and Petey is another year older so it's pretty evident that Boeser is going get some more chances to shoot this year than he has in year's past. 

 

Last thing we want is to sign him to 2 years, have him rack up 40 goals in a season, and then have to pay him 9 mill plus per season. 

 

Just sign him long term 7 years 7+ million now. The reward far outweighs the risk. 

 

Could you imagine if the Avalanche had signed Mackinnon to a bridge. Or Boston with Marchand/Pastrnak. Mackinnon/Marchand would be in the double digits instead of 6ish. That's how you prolong your window. 

 

Seattle's coming in, new TV deal coming up, the cap is going up. Take advantage while we can. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Duodenum

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Duodenum said:

A bridge contract would be a terrible idea. 

 

We've got an actual offensive dman in the line-up now in Hughes, another competent one in Myers, a new playmaker in Miller, and Petey is another year older so it's pretty evident that Boeser is going get some more chances to shoot this year than he has in year's past. 

 

Last thing we want is to sign him to 2 years, have him rack up 40 goals in a season, and then have to pay him 9 mill plus per season. 

 

Just sign him long term 7 years 7+ million now. The reward far outweighs the risk. 

 

Could you imagine if the Avalanche had signed Mackinnon to a bridge. Or Boston with Marchand/Pastrnak. Mackinnon/Marchand would be in the double digits instead of 6ish. That's how you prolong your window. 

If he racks up 40 goals and costs too much, his value as a trade chip would be huge.  A show me more contract is all he's earned so far.

Edited August 29, 2019 by stawns

[Duodenum]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

If he racks up 40 goals and costs too much, his value as a trade chip would be huge.

Or we could have a cheap 40 goal scorer long-term making our stanley cup window all the longer. Plus he'll have more value at 7x7.5 than as a pending RFA. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Duodenum

[RowdyCanuck]

1 minute ago, ba;;isticsports said:

But, it makes no sense to get them, even if the team would trade  them and the price to acquire them and Brock is someone we already have

 

Brock hasn't produced  those numbers as of yet, and I don't think paying high on potential is worth the risk, when you have RFA protection

 

Just because Dumbass did that and wanted to be a hero for bringing a cup to TO did , does not mean the market is set

Gm's only have to point to that very example and say and how well did that work out for them?

 

I think the pressure to sit young stars would be too much for a gm and owner, especially if the team was struggling though

 

We need to build a team of players that wanna be here and paid fair

I agree I'm just voicing the other side of the coin and stating his not worth what some of those other rfa are. Like you said the money has to work out on both sides and why I say keep him until he prices himself off the team...

i didn't mean trade Brock for those players but it's not justified for Brock to demand the same pay day as say Marner or Laine or even  tkachuk  in my books. That's why I say his in a tier below petey and bo. 

I could live with a trade for tarasenko cause he brings a lil more to the table and yes is older but his on what is now a far contract if not a bargain contract.