5Fivehole0 Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 4 hours ago, aGENT said: And this would seem to be the crux of the matter IMO. To be fair, I think that's what @5Fivehole0 is (poorly) attempting to present on this issue. It's not untrue that in the year 2019, in Canada, there's very little, if any, remaining in the way of any sort of 'systemic oppression' to any groups. People are generally free to work, live and come and go, as they please, regardless of their race, gender, religion etc. Frankly, it's something we should be celebrating, not attacking each other about. That's not to say there aren't individuals or even groups of individuals who are still racist, bigoted, misogynists etc but by and large, there's basically nothing 'systemic' holding any person back from living a full, free life of whatever opportunity they wish, today. No matter their background. That's however also not to say that we aren't still dealing with the repercussions of our past, decades/generations long, very real,, very harmful, systemic oppression. What happened to First Nations people in this country (as per the discussion in this thread) is appalling. And there's zero chance the effects of that gets erased in the roughly 20'ish years +/- where that's started improving. There's very real, ingrained issues to deal with there from that hangover that we and Mr. 5 cannot ignore. Sadly, I don't think anyone has the foggiest idea of what will actually 'fix' that beyond, hopefully, time (and continuing to push the issue). I'm all ears for any other ideas though. I appreciate your post. I think for myself I'm a little tired and impatient with the response I generally receive for having my views. Politically I am centre with right leaning tendancies on things such as banning "hate" speech, gun control, etc.. So I get attacked verbally quite often... I let myself get dragged down a bit here and was more interested in saying "you're wrong" than explaining my position. As for how to fix it. We can't, and that's the sad truth. You can't undo all the harm done by the ignorant of the past, but you can move on. There needs to be a shift in their culture where a generation stands up and says enough is enough, and changes. The incentives are there... Also to touch on that I did explain that the educational incentives were available to most, not all. The boards, I also mentioned, and they are just as open to corruption as the Chief is. It's a messed up system. I think the Canadian government should stop treating them like "Natives" and start treating them like humans. We can build this highway upgrade in Victoria but we can't get water to all our citizens?!? It's laughable. And we allow this to happen by electing ideologistic fools like Trudeau who is more invested into immigrating in his votes with a globalist agenda than helping his own people. /endbakedrant 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRussianRocket1994 Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Monty said: Sure, but social norms suggest otherwise. Is it really too much to ask someone to not paint their face black for a costume? Not like it’s going to ruin their day if they don’t. As for this thing with Trudeau? Let’s give the guy a break, this happened when he was 14 years old, right? *looks at date and his age at the time* Sh*t, he was 30? What an imbecile. I knew as a teenager in the 90s that it was a moronic thing to do. I’m not saying go out of your way to do it, but if someone does, maybe realize what it’s for / what the intentions are instead of spouting off a bunch of false accusations. Just like is it too much to ask not to paint your face black, is it too much to ask not to overreact / create issue where there isn’t one. That’s the problem with society, make issues where issues don’t exist and turn a blind eye to the real issues. Also, I could care less about the Trudeau / political angle...this has happened on different fronts and there’s no need for it to. Edited September 20, 2019 by IRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 40 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said: I appreciate your post. I think for myself I'm a little tired and impatient with the response I generally receive for having my views. Politically I am centre with right leaning tendancies on things such as banning "hate" speech, gun control, etc.. So I get attacked verbally quite often... I let myself get dragged down a bit here and was more interested in saying "you're wrong" than explaining my position. As for how to fix it. We can't, and that's the sad truth. You can't undo all the harm done by the ignorant of the past, but you can move on. There needs to be a shift in their culture where a generation stands up and says enough is enough, and changes. The incentives are there... Also to touch on that I did explain that the educational incentives were available to most, not all. The boards, I also mentioned, and they are just as open to corruption as the Chief is. It's a messed up system. I think the Canadian government should stop treating them like "Natives" and start treating them like humans. We can build this highway upgrade in Victoria but we can't get water to all our citizens?!? It's laughable. And we allow this to happen by electing ideologistic fools like Trudeau who is more invested into immigrating in his votes with a globalist agenda than helping his own people. /endbakedrant Centuries of other people trying to kill or eliminate their culture. Only very very recently in the generations of trying to kill their culture are we sort of doing anything about it yet you put the burden of action on them for real change. Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Fivehole0 Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 Just now, inane said: Centuries of other people trying to kill or eliminate their culture. Only very very recently in the generations of trying to kill their culture are we sort of doing anything about it yet you put the burden of action on them for real change. Ok. Yea, I do, because ultimately you are in charge of you and your outcome. Sometimes you have to do the tough thing instead of waiting for someone else to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said: Yea, I do, because ultimately you are in charge of you and your outcome. Sometimes you have to do the tough thing instead of waiting for someone else to fix it. Bootstraps! Lol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Fivehole0 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, inane said: Bootstraps! Lol I guess it kind of is a bit of a bootstrap paradox, but not really... The tools are there, for the most part. If that's what you were referring to, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 3 hours ago, SabreFan1 said: Wait for what? Confirmation that he's a schmuck? Not really. This just puts a bow on the top of the argument. I've always had a difficult time buying into his act. "his act" is kind of appropriate. He is a lot about political theatre, but you need to remember the context. We were dealing with 9 years of the Harper clan, Canada had never had that socially conservative a government for generations. We needed some "sunny ways" to get back to whats normal up here. His team has always been more competent than him, no one would think otherwise. But up here its not all about the guy at the top running everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, 5Fivehole0 said: I appreciate your post. I think for myself I'm a little tired and impatient with the response I generally receive for having my views. Politically I am centre with right leaning tendancies on things such as banning "hate" speech, gun control, etc.. So I get attacked verbally quite often... I let myself get dragged down a bit here and was more interested in saying "you're wrong" than explaining my position. As for how to fix it. We can't, and that's the sad truth. You can't undo all the harm done by the ignorant of the past, but you can move on. There needs to be a shift in their culture where a generation stands up and says enough is enough, and changes. The incentives are there... Also to touch on that I did explain that the educational incentives were available to most, not all. The boards, I also mentioned, and they are just as open to corruption as the Chief is. It's a messed up system. I think the Canadian government should stop treating them like "Natives" and start treating them like humans. We can build this highway upgrade in Victoria but we can't get water to all our citizens?!? It's laughable. And we allow this to happen by electing ideologistic fools like Trudeau who is more invested into immigrating in his votes with a globalist agenda than helping his own people. /endbakedrant Maybe you get "attacked verbally quite often" because there is too much inconsistency in your views. On one hand you state that there are enough opportunities out there for everyone that we can put aside the idea that systemic oppression exists. You also champion the idea of personal responsibility and yet here you are whining about immigrants taking away opportunities from native Canadians. So why exactly does Trudeau need to "help his own people" when the people born here should just... What was it that you said? 42 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said: Yea, I do, because ultimately you are in charge of you and your outcome. Sometimes you have to do the tough thing instead of waiting for someone else to fix it. If you truly believed this then why would you vote or hell even care about politics. Why would you care if Trudeau or anyone else got elected? My conclusion is that you only believe this only when it is convenient. This is why it is difficult to take you seriously. Edited September 21, 2019 by Toews 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said: yeah I think you're very correct in this. Maybe the inability to look inward and take criticism makes you more prone to snap judgments of others too. I wouldn't be surprised. I'd be willing to bet the farm on that one. I do think there's a layer of that behavior or reaction that connects to snap judgements. I'd say a connection to name calling as well. The thing about all of this is that there's so much about the human condition people don't fully understand or perhaps want to accept. For example ... the recurring behavior I've noticed in my Facebook feed ... - The people I know to be the most pessimistic and angry are also the ones who share the most cuddly animal photos and funny videos. - The people I know to self-identify as depressed, negative and sad are the also the ones who are sharing the most photos of themselves in overly happy smiles and poses. - The people who I know to be the least caring and compassionate are also the ones presenting themselves as the most altruistic and caring. I know I'm not the only person who sees this type of behavior. It's literally the opposite. It's even in language people use. You know, when someone says, "I'm not trying to be a jerk ..." and then proceeds to be a jerk. Or when someone says, "No offence intended ..." and then proceeds to be offensive. Or when someone says, "I don't mean to insult ..." and then proceeds to insult someone. The people I know to be the most altruistic and caring aren't online trying to show how much they really are or putting someone else down for not being as caring. Edited September 21, 2019 by Dr. Crossbar . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, bishopshodan said: This is a fun convo too.. I was in a band with a first nations lead singer. His band before was made up of mostly non-white players, they called their band Pale Face ( that name is yet another convo maybe?) However, he was always pointing out the negative and positive references in the words we use.... 'a black mark'....'pure white, ivory fresh'...'the dark side'....'join the light'... You know, I could go on. But I am always aware of that since those days. Dark and black is used as a reference for evil and dirt. White is often used for purity, cleanliness and light. I am not saying it is a targeted thing. I understand that we humans are often afraid of the dark in our history....darkness hides the evil that goes bump in the night. White is the absence of stain when cleaning such as Ivory soap. Yet, intentional or not, are there subliminal elements that should be taken into consideration? True story: Tommy Chong was once in a band with three black guys.... They called themselves "Three Ns and a C (I'm sure you can guess what those letters stood for) Edited September 21, 2019 by RUPERTKBD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreFan1 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 18 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: "his act" is kind of appropriate. He is a lot about political theatre, but you need to remember the context. We were dealing with 9 years of the Harper clan, Canada had never had that socially conservative a government for generations. We needed some "sunny ways" to get back to whats normal up here. His team has always been more competent than him, no one would think otherwise. But up here its not all about the guy at the top running everything. If that's the case than he has made his team's job of governing effectively much harder to accomplish and if for no other reason should be replaced just for that reason alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted September 21, 2019 Author Share Posted September 21, 2019 4 hours ago, bishopshodan said: This is a fun convo too.. I was in a band with a first nations lead singer. His band before was made up of mostly non-white players, they called their band Pale Face ( that name is yet another convo maybe?) However, he was always pointing out the negative and positive references in the words we use.... 'a black mark'....'pure white, ivory fresh'...'the dark side'....'join the light'... You know, I could go on. But I am always aware of that since those days. Dark and black is used as a reference for evil and dirt. White is often used for purity, cleanliness and light. I am not saying it is a targeted thing. I understand that we humans are often afraid of the dark in our history....darkness hides the evil that goes bump in the night. White is the absence of stain when cleaning such as Ivory soap. Yet, intentional or not, are there subliminal elements that should be taken into consideration? Black death, blackout, blackmail, black hole, black eye, black widow, blacklist, blackballed etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said: True story: Tommy Chong was once in a band with three black guys.... They called themselves "Three Ns and a C (I'm sure you can guess what those letters stood fot) Actually 4 N's and a C was the name... They became Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers........ Edited September 21, 2019 by kingofsurrey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Fivehole0 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 19 minutes ago, Toews said: Maybe you get "attacked verbally quite often" because there is too much inconsistency in your views. On one hand you state that there are enough opportunities out there for everyone that we can put aside the idea that systemic oppression exists. Systemic Oppression doesn't exist, you cannot provide one example of modern systemic oppression in Canada. There is none. And the opportunities are there, but unfortunately they are not yet there for everyone, and this is a failure by our government. That being said, if this was such an important matter among the First Nations why did they do nothing to help each other? Where did all the money go? Just because there was a failure on one end doesn't mean there is no fault to the other side. Move to a place with water; unite a front to pipe your own water. People use to walk across continents don't tell me you can't resettle. There are options. I know I wouldn't stay in those conditions. 19 minutes ago, Toews said: You also champion the idea of personal responsibility and yet here you are whining about immigrants taking away opportunities from native Canadians. No I don't. I complain that Trudeau will spend more on helping bring in more immigrants and making them Canadian citizens than actually providing for the citizens he has. It has nothing to do with taking opportunities but rather focusing on an outside problem before an internal issue. In this case they are both human right issues at the core. I also am talking about the majority, not the exception. A majority of First Nations have access to the privileges I pointed out and a majority don't use them. Even if there was no monetary incentive, shouldn't an education be incentive enough? Shouldn't you want to better yourself? So ya, I champion personal responsibility. 19 minutes ago, Toews said: So why exactly does Trudeau need to "help his own people" when the people born here should just... What was it that you said? If you truly believed this then why would you vote or hell even care about politics. Why would you care if Trudeau or anyone else got elected? My conclusion is that you only believe this only when it is convenient. This is why it is difficult to take you seriously. Because Trudeaus job is to lead the damn country and to delegate. He is failing in that respect and therefore is failing his people. Not once did I say its Trudeaus fault that the First Nations are in the predicament they are in. I just said Trudeau, who's JOB is to delegate people to important societal tasks, has failed to do so in a timely matter therefore breaking a campaign promise that garnered the vote of the Indigenous people. You fail to understand what Im saying because you're putting words in my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 40 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said: I wouldn't be surprised. I'd be willing to bet the farm on that one. I do think there's a layer of that behavior or reaction that connects to snap judgements. I'd say a connection to name calling as well. The thing about all of this is that there's so much about the human condition people don't fully understand or perhaps want to accept. For example ... the recurring behavior I've noticed in my Facebook feed ... - The people I know to be the most pessimistic and angry are also the ones who share the most cuddly animal photos and funny videos. - The people I know to self-identify as depressed, negative and sad are the also the ones who are sharing the most photos of themselves in overly happy smiles and poses. - The people who I know to be the least caring and compassionate are also the ones presenting themselves as the most altruistic and caring. I know I'm not the only person who sees this type of behavior. It's literally the opposite. It's even in language people use. You know, when someone says, "I'm not trying to be a jerk ..." and then proceeds to be a jerk. Or when someone says, "No offence intended ..." and then proceeds to be offensive. Or when someone says, "I don't mean to insult ..." and then proceeds to insult someone. The people I know to be the most altruistic and caring aren't online trying to show how much they really are or putting someone else down for not being as caring. yeah we're on the same page for all of that. The last statement is something I've noticed my entire life as well, the most giving are the ones that just do it and don't talk much about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said: I also am talking about the majority, not the exception. A majority of First Nations have access to the privileges I pointed out and a majority don't use them. Even if there was no monetary incentive, shouldn't an education be incentive enough? Shouldn't you want to better yourself? So ya, I champion personal responsibility. Because Trudeaus job is to lead the damn country and to delegate. He is failing in that respect and therefore is failing his people. Not once did I say its Trudeaus fault that the First Nations are in the predicament they are in. I just said Trudeau, who's JOB is to delegate people to important societal tasks, has failed to do so in a timely matter therefore breaking a campaign promise that garnered the vote of the Indigenous people. You fail to understand what Im saying because you're putting words in my mouth. Generation after generation of Canadian politicians have failed our indigenous citizens. Blaming JT is pretty sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Fivehole0 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Just now, kingofsurrey said: Generation after generation of Canadian politicians have failed our indigenous citizens. Blaming JT is pretty sad. He is the correct person to say is failing as a leader today. He gets paid to fix these problems and accept onus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 31 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said: If that's the case than he has made his team's job of governing effectively much harder to accomplish and if for no other reason should be replaced just for that reason alone. oh he has. Thats why I said above I'm now hoping for a Liberal-Green coalition result in the next election. If that happens Trudeau can step down with a measure of success but there will also be a lot of pressure from within to replace him. Even if Canadians forgive him for this gaffe, and I think most will, he's a much diminished figure on the world stage and the rest of the world won't be forgiving at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: yeah we're on the same page for all of that. The last statement is something I've noticed my entire life as well, the most giving are the ones that just do it and don't talk much about it. My point between the lines is that you can also apply that to the current state of identity politics as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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