[Signing] Flames sign Joakim Nordstrom

[Dazzle]

57 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

Jayce has 68 NHL games played compared to Nordstrom's 400. Nordstrom also has playoff experience with some good teams.

 

Jayce may end up being better, and I hope he is. However, I wouldn't say that because Nordstrom is primarily a winger, and therefore not as good at faceoffs, that it makes him the inferior player. Using that logic, every natural C would be better than every winger just because of faceoff percentage.

 

You shouldn't need to point to sites to show what a player is listed as. If you watched him on a regular basis, you'd know he's a LW. Not sure what the rest of that last section is about, or what it has to do with Nordstrom.

And I didn't say that Nordstrom was crap, or a bad player. I said that the Canucks would be better off with Jayce.

 

Him being a winger does not mean he is bad at faceoffs. By that logic, why is Jayce better at faceoffs? He's been used as a winger too. I said that Jayce's faceoff percentage makes him a BETTER option for the Canucks. There is a difference.

In this post, I am not using a single website, but it doesn't seem to matter.

[oldnews]

My two cents in the "what is a winger", "who is a center?" thread....

 

the best way to determine where a player plays is not to look at those nominal representations - even the most useful of sources can mess this up with even veterans whose role is patently obvious....ie Hockey Reference has Beagle as a RW.

 

The far more reliable way to determine this is:

 

1) look at the actual volume of draws the player takes (a metric HR provides, ironically, which evidences that he's not really a RW).

 

and

 

2) go to their dobberhockey frozenpool - "Dobber's frozen tools" profile and click on "line combinations".

 

Let's look at this in the more relevent to Canucks question of Hawryluk - you'll see that he played with Paul, Anisimov, Duclair, etc - a range of depth forwards.

What you'll see, for example, if you search a Nick Paul - is that he is predominantly, almost exclusively is listed as a LW.

And if you look at only his line combinations, he appears to play with another center the vast majority of the time.

However - Nick Paul took 373 faceoffs this season.   Any winger is bound to take a small amount of wave/replacement draws when the center is waved - however, 373 faceoffs - approaches 'real' / regular NHL center shifts....

And if you were to look at Paul in previous seasons, in smaller samples, you'd see that he might take a draw or two a game, whereas now he's taking a half dozen...

So clearly, as players progess - some of them might actually 'convert'/revert back to playing center, from wing.... Most may go from center to winger conversions by virtue of being better players relative to their competition at younger ages, with more centers typically drafted than wingers....but some also develop into centers while earning a spot as a winger...

 

At the same time, if you look at Hawryluk - you don't see the kind of faceoff totals that would lead you to believe he's a 'center' at the NHL level - he's taken winger/replacement level volumes of draws - however - again - this does not necessarily indicate that he "is" and will remain a winger....that's to be determined by probably a number of factors, including fit, need, and that player's development/progress and skillset.  Part of the relevence is also their earlier develpment - if they are a 'natural' center before turning pro, they have experience and development with the defensive center role, taking draws, etc.  Likewise - Gaudette "is" a center, but like EP - it may come to make more sense to move him to wing (at least until he's 'NHL ready' as a center....)

The more reliable ways of assessing it are their volume of draws and the linemates and contexts they play in which you can deduce yourself.

Edited October 21, 2020 by oldnews

[Dazzle]

Just now, oldnews said:

My two cents in the "what is a winger", "who is a center?" thread....

 

the best way to determine where a player plays is not to look at those nominal representations - even the most useful of sources can mess this up with even veterans whose role is patently obvious....ie Hockey Reference has Beagle as a RW.

 

The far more reliable way to determine this is:

 

1) look at the actual volume of draws the player takes (a metric HR provides, ironically, which evidences that he's not really a RW).

 

and

 

2) go to their dobberhockey frozenpool - "Dobber's frozen tools" profile and click on "line combination".

 

With Hawryluk you'll see that he played with Paul, Anisimov, Duclair, etc - a range of depth forwards.

 

What you'll see, for example, if you search a Nick Paul - is that he predominantly, almost exclusively is listed as a LW.

And if you look at only his line combinations, he appears to play with a center the vast majority of the time.

However - Nick Paul took 373 faceoffs this season.   Any winger is bound to take a small amount of wave/replacement draws when the center is waved - however, 373 faceoffs - approaches 'real' / regular NHL center shifts....

And if you were to look at Paul in previous seasons, in smaller samples, you'd see that he might take a draw or two a game, whereas now he's taking a half dozen...

So clearly, as players progess - some of them might actually 'convert' or revert to playing center, from wing.... Most may go from center to winger conversions by virtue of being better players relative to their competition at younger ages, with more centers typically drafted than wingers....

 

At the same time, if you look at Hawryluk - you don't see the kind of faceoff totals that would lead you to believe he's a 'center' at the NHL level - he's taken winger/replacement level volumes of draws - however - again - this does not necessarily indicate that he "is" and will remain a winger....that's to be determined by probably a number of factors, including fit, need, and that player's development/progress and skillset.  Likewise - Gaudette "is" a center, but like EP - it may come to make more sense to move him to wing (at least until he's 'NHL ready' as a center....)

This is a great post. Very informative and unbiased.

 

Based on the samples of each player, I have maintained that Howryluk seems to be a better option for taking faceoffs in a pinch. That kind of flexibility is useful for the Canucks, whereas Nordstrom shows a much worse faceoff percentage by total.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Dazzle

[oldnews]

56 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

This is a great post. Very informative and unbiased.

 

Based on the samples of each player, I have maintained that Howryluk seems to be a better option for taking faceoffs in a pinch. That kind of flexibility is useful for the Canucks, whereas Nordstrom shows a much worse faceoff percentage by total.

Hopefully that is the case.  Nordstrom is a 'natural center' in the sense I mean above - meaning he 'was' a center at earlier stages of his career - has that as a 'foundation' perhaps for his role as a defensive winger in the NHL....

He also took 125 draws last year (only 38.4%) - enough that the point you raise gains relevence - as a second 'natural center' on a line, an effective faceoff guy who has the defensive skillset of a center = can be a real asset (and particularly if you lose your primary centers to injury) - if they are a better faceoff guy than the average replacement winger (not sure Nordstrom is).

Part of the reason I'd want a Nick Paul in a deal with Ottawa - 4th most faceoffs wins on that team, second best faceoff % (tied with Tierney) - good physical winger - good defensive numbers with some upside - who I think would be a good fit on a Paul Sutter Virtanen line....if they were to cut a deal with Ottawa - to dump cap (Roussel) - or acquire Brown..

Edited October 21, 2020 by oldnews

[Master Mind]

33 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

And I didn't say that Nordstrom was crap, or a bad player. I said that the Canucks would be better off with Jayce.

 

Him being a winger does not mean he is bad at faceoffs. By that logic, why is Jayce better at faceoffs? He's been used as a winger too. I said that Jayce's faceoff percentage makes him a BETTER option for the Canucks. There is a difference.

In this post, I am not using a single website, but it doesn't seem to matter.

Sure, Jayce would be better to have take a faceoff in a pinch. Does that alone make him a better signing? I don't think it's that simple.

 

But for you to call Nordstrom a centre is just misleading. Sure, he's played it in the past, but that's not the role he's being signed for. We don't refer to Burns as a winger, despite him playing the position previously.

[Master Mind]

@oldnews I too like to use the Dobber line combos. I find it useful for seeing who a player's linemates are, but I don't think it lists them in LW-C-RW order.

 

Looking at Horvat, the 3rd most frequent line reads as Horvat-Pearson-Virtanen, followed by Horvat-Leivo-Pearson.

 

Reading it as a hockey lineup implies he played LW in those cases, when we know he was C.

 

Unless there's an additional filter I'm missing to make it always show LW-C-RW?

Edited October 21, 2020 by Master Mind

[oldnews]

4 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

@oldnews I too like to use the Dobber line combos. I find it useful for seeing who a player's linemates are, but I don't think it lists them in LW-C-RW order.

 

Looking at Horvat, the 3rd most frequent line reads as Horvat-Pearson-Virtanen, followed by Horvat-Leivo-Pearson.

 

Reading it as a hockey lineup implies he played LW in those cases, when we know he was C.

 

Unless there's an additional filter I'm missing to make it always show LW-C-RW?

True - it only gives you line combinations and frequency - it does not indicate who lined up where - the user has to work that out.

[Googlie]

10 hours ago, Teemu Selänne said:

Dazzle - I'm sorry but he's a LW who played center in Sweden before joining Chicago's system

Then why does the Flames website list him as a center?

 

https://www.nhl.com/flames/roster

[Master Mind]

2 minutes ago, Googlie said:

Then why does the Flames website list him as a center?

 

https://www.nhl.com/flames/roster

NHL.com isn't the most accurate source for positions.

[Dazzle]

Just now, Master Mind said:

NHL.com isn't the most accurate source for positions.

That's ridiculous really. I'm not directing this at you. The fact that multiple sites are feeding off each other, and the one site that you apparently can't trust is also the official site for stats.

 

Also, there's nothing misleading with what I said. Just because you are not being used as a center doesn't mean you're not actually a center. It's actually more misleading to say that he ISN'T a center, even though multiple reputable sites say he is.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Dazzle

[Patrick Kane]

Do people believe everything read? How about you watch him play for yourself and determine his actual position??? Holy smokes people.

 

@Dazzle is trying to back-track. His first point was "he's a center, who's horrible at draws". He won't admit he's wrong. I don't care about his other points. I never brought those up. I never brought up Jayce ONCE. I told @Dazzle Nordstrom plays LW, and not C, and he got shook.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Patrick Kane

[Patrick Kane]

9 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

 

Also, there's nothing misleading with what I said. Just because you are not being used as a center doesn't mean you're not actually a center. It's actually more misleading to say that he ISN'T a center, even though multiple reputable sites say he is.

 

When educated hockey fans discuss Nordstrom, they refer to him as a defensive winger. We don't look up their position, because we know what they play based on watching the game.

[Dazzle]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Kane said:

 

When educated hockey fans discuss Nordstrom, they refer to him as a defensive winger. We don't look up their position, because we know what they play based on watching the game.

That's why there's a scouting report that refers to him as a centre right?

 

Saw your edit, and lol. You are so petty. I truly wonder if you are an alt account.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Dazzle

[Master Mind]

12 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

That's ridiculous really. I'm not directing this at you. The fact that multiple sites are feeding off each other, and the one site that you apparently can't trust is also the official site for stats.

 

Also, there's nothing misleading with what I said. Just because you are not being used as a center doesn't mean you're not actually a center. It's actually more misleading to say that he ISN'T a center, even though multiple reputable sites say he is.

I don't know where each site pulls its data from, or which ones just input their own. 

 

However I think it's easy to see that many of them just enter a player's position when he's drafted, then either don't update, or update years later.

 

Kuznetsov for example broke into the league as a winger with Ovie and Backstrom, and was later moved to C.

 

It took years of playing purely at C before those sites removed winger from his list of eligible positions (some probably still have it). And that's for a star player.

 

You labelled Nordstrom as a C in your initial post. He isn't being signed to play C, therefore it's misleading to label him a C.

[Patrick Kane]

2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

That's why there's a scouting report that refers to him as a centre right?

 

Saw your edit, and lol. You are so petty. I truly wonder if you are an alt account.

He has played LW since he broke into the NHL, that's all that matters. Not what he did in Sweden, prior to the NHL. 

There's scouting reports of Brent Burns playing RW.

 

Look at Dobber tool as @oldnews mentioned too if you want and check his line mates.

[Nail]

Calgary was 21st in the league last year with a team faceoff percentage below 50%. Wonder if they brought in Nordstrom to improve in that department?

[Dazzle]

14 minutes ago, Patrick Kane said:

He has played LW since he broke into the NHL, that's all that matters. Not what he did in Sweden, prior to the NHL. 

There's scouting reports of Brent Burns playing RW.

 

Look at Dobber tool as @oldnews mentioned too if you want and check his line mates.

Uh huh, and that's why you left alone @Alain Vigneault's posts  that Miller wasn't a centre right? Totally not coincidental.

 

 

What a moronic post that you didn't call out. Just flat out embarrassing that you guys are having fun with each other privately.

 

Your pal put me on ignore. Good riddance. All he does is push on narratives that he can't defend.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Dazzle

[Ilya Mikheyev]

10 hours ago, Googlie said:

Then why does the Flames website list him as a center?

 

https://www.nhl.com/flames/roster

don'tttttttttt

[Ilya Mikheyev]

10 hours ago, Nail said:

Calgary was 21st in the league last year with a team faceoff percentage below 50%. Wonder if they brought in Nordstrom to improve in that department?

stoppppppp

[JM_]

F'lames still suck.