Arrow 1983 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 On 12/14/2020 at 10:40 PM, Provost said: The details will come out in the next day or two, but with travel restrictions it is almost certain we will have a taxi squad/extended roster. This is good news for us as it likely means we can shave some cap off by only carrying a 20 man official roster that counts towards the cap and just call up guys same day if we need them due to injury. The really interesting conundrum is who you have on the taxi squad. It may not be some of our top prospects because we want them developing and not sitting in the press box for long stretches. To me that gives a leg up to the older guys with lower ceilings who will lose less by not playing. To me our prospects will end up as: At forward it is easier because we have too many vets. Hoglander is the most interesting decision because they may feel that being with the team under their control for strength training may be more beneficial than playing minutes. It is not like his skill is going to develop a lot more in Sweden... it is the transition to our game and skating that will be most important. I don’t see him staying in the AHL long term though. Hoglander - AHL for 2 weeks then Rogle Baertschi - Taxi Squad McEwan - Roster/Taxi Squad Graovac - AHL Lind -AHL Bailey - Taxi Squad Hawyrluk - Taxi Squad Lockwood - AHL Gadjovich - AHL Eriksson - I wish AHL, but Taxi Squad Defence. This is where I think age will make the most difference. It makes more sense for Rathbone and Woo to be playing huge minutes in the AHL as a top pairing than being with the big club in the press box. Juolevi - Roster Rathbone -AHL Rafferty - Taxi Squad Chatfield - Taxi Squad Brisebois - Taxi Squad Woo - AHL Sautner - Taxi Squad Teves - AHL The only way this could work is if a team kept enough open cap space to recall someone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow 1983 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Provost said: Calgary played a long stretch with less than 20 players, they didn’t have the cap space to cover short term injuries. As usual, your pairs don’t make sense. It is fine for teams to play with a 21 player roster when not forced to because of specific pandemic issues... but suddenly 20 is “clearly cap circumvention”? It is clearly NOT cap circumvention because the CBA literally outlines that teams are allowed to only carry 20 players. They specifically picked that number as the minimum. A team carrying 20 players fulfills the specifically outlined roster as explicitly outlined in the CBA language. They would have to negotiate a memorandum of agreement between the PA and the league to increase that. Your stuff around replacing players on short term injuries shows that you didn’t bother reading the thread at all. You literally run a short roster to bank cap space and give yourself breathing room. You can keep guys demoted until you need them and then demote them right after the game so you save cap on off days. But last year and years before there was no taxi squad Using the Canucks for example your idea doesn't work at all as Ferland will be on LTIR and as you have pointed out many times a team can't bank LTIR capspace 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow 1983 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, Provost said: Calgary played a long stretch with less than 20 players, they didn’t have the cap space to cover short term injuries. As usual, your pairs don’t make sense. It is fine for teams to play with a 21 player roster when not forced to because of specific pandemic issues... but suddenly 20 is “clearly cap circumvention”? It is clearly NOT cap circumvention because the CBA literally outlines that teams are allowed to only carry 20 players. They specifically picked that number as the minimum. A team carrying 20 players fulfills the specifically outlined roster as explicitly outlined in the CBA language. They would have to negotiate a memorandum of agreement between the PA and the league to increase that. Your stuff around replacing players on short term injuries shows that you didn’t bother reading the thread at all. You literally run a short roster to bank cap space and give yourself breathing room. You can keep guys demoted until you need them and then demote them right after the game so you save cap on off days. I do agree with you the CBA as it's current form doesn't make it cap circumvention how ever the CBA was not written to intend on a taxi squad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow 1983 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 10 minutes ago, Provost said: Calgary played a long stretch with less than 20 players, they didn’t have the cap space to cover short term injuries. As usual, your pairs don’t make sense. It is fine for teams to play with a 21 player roster when not forced to because of specific pandemic issues... but suddenly 20 is “clearly cap circumvention”? It is clearly NOT cap circumvention because the CBA literally outlines that teams are allowed to only carry 20 players. They specifically picked that number as the minimum. A team carrying 20 players fulfills the specifically outlined roster as explicitly outlined in the CBA language. They would have to negotiate a memorandum of agreement between the PA and the league to increase that. Your stuff around replacing players on short term injuries shows that you didn’t bother reading the thread at all. You literally run a short roster to bank cap space and give yourself breathing room. You can keep guys demoted until you need them and then demote them right after the game so you save cap on off days. if you can't bank LTIR cap space then why not just keep a full roster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow 1983 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 If you don't have Ferland on LTIR then your minimal roster would be 21 not 20 as Ferland has to remain on the team as an injured player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow 1983 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 On 12/14/2020 at 10:40 PM, Provost said: The details will come out in the next day or two, but with travel restrictions it is almost certain we will have a taxi squad/extended roster. This is good news for us as it likely means we can shave some cap off by only carrying a 20 man official roster that counts towards the cap and just call up guys same day if we need them due to injury. The really interesting conundrum is who you have on the taxi squad. It may not be some of our top prospects because we want them developing and not sitting in the press box for long stretches. To me that gives a leg up to the older guys with lower ceilings who will lose less by not playing. To me our prospects will end up as: At forward it is easier because we have too many vets. Hoglander is the most interesting decision because they may feel that being with the team under their control for strength training may be more beneficial than playing minutes. It is not like his skill is going to develop a lot more in Sweden... it is the transition to our game and skating that will be most important. I don’t see him staying in the AHL long term though. Hoglander - AHL for 2 weeks then Rogle Baertschi - Taxi Squad McEwan - Roster/Taxi Squad Graovac - AHL Lind -AHL Bailey - Taxi Squad Hawyrluk - Taxi Squad Lockwood - AHL Gadjovich - AHL Eriksson - I wish AHL, but Taxi Squad Defence. This is where I think age will make the most difference. It makes more sense for Rathbone and Woo to be playing huge minutes in the AHL as a top pairing than being with the big club in the press box. Juolevi - Roster Rathbone -AHL Rafferty - Taxi Squad Chatfield - Taxi Squad Brisebois - Taxi Squad Woo - AHL Sautner - Taxi Squad Teves - AHL What would be really help full is that you post the roster that you had in mind and then we people that like Capfriendly could review it there. I truthfully can't see the Canucks having a 20 man roster or in this case 21 and still gaining cap space 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmm Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 48 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said: What would be really help full is that you post the roster that you had in mind and then we people that like Capfriendly could review it there. I truthfully can't see the Canucks having a 20 man roster or in this case 21 and still gaining cap space You ae right Arrrow we are in agreement. I have asked Provost to post a roster with cap hits but no reply. Jan did one with roundish numbers, not quite sufficient to support arguement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted December 20, 2020 Author Share Posted December 20, 2020 56 minutes ago, lmm said: You ae right Arrrow we are in agreement. I have asked Provost to post a roster with cap hits but no reply. Jan did one with roundish numbers, not quite sufficient to support arguement. His roster was effectively the same, I posted that I agreed with it and he provided numbers. If you can't be bothered to read responses, then that is something you have to work on... not ask other people to do more work to make up for you not wanting to do any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmm Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Provost said: His roster was effectively the same, I posted that I agreed with it and he provided numbers. If you can't be bothered to read responses, then that is something you have to work on... not ask other people to do more work to make up for you not wanting to do any. his numbers were wrong you go check you are pretty salty for a guy not posting numbers Edited December 20, 2020 by lmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted December 20, 2020 Author Share Posted December 20, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said: But last year and years before there was no taxi squad Using the Canucks for example your idea doesn't work at all as Ferland will be on LTIR and as you have pointed out many times a team can't bank LTIR capspace No idea why you posted a bunch of different times. The math is pretty simple. $83 million with a 23 man roster including Ferland on a 23 man roster. Take away about $3 million by reducing the roster by 3 and that is $80 million, with a cap of $81.5... even with Ferland just on IR off the active roster and not LTIR. They can even wrangle it to have the roster set so that Ferland's money is available for LTIR overage if they need it... but also be running under the cap and banking space when they don't. All those paper type moves happen all the time, it isn't new. The LTIR cushion is set based on the cap situation when the player gets put on it, and is even allowed to be done retroactively. We can have a cap situation where we have the ability to spend $85 million (including Ferlands LTIR salary) if we need to, but run under the $81.5 million cap on a day to day basis and bank cap space each day we are under that. Cap is calculated on a daily basis. Again, this isn't newm teams have been doing it for years shuffling guys on and off the active roster to maximize their flexibility. Edited December 20, 2020 by Provost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Looks like teams will be able to move players freely between the main roster and the taxi squad but normal recall rules and waivers would apply. With LTIR in use teams can't easily bank cap space and the recall cap hit of ELC players includes the performance bonus. For Vancouver to be able to bank cap space, they would need to get their 20 player roster to under 72.2M. Ferland 3.5M + Luongo 3.04M + Spooner 1.03 + Bonus overage 1.7M = 9.3M ----- which leaves 72.2M to get to 81.5M. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijibo Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) If Ferland is on LTIR the performance bonuses have to be covered in a recall. Looks like the recall cap hit could be lower as the potential bonuses will be pro-rated. The individual targets are adjusted but it's unclear if the overall max is. If the 850K max is also adjusted it would reduce the bonus carry over for 2021/22. Pettersson/Hughes will certainly hit the max but instead of 2x 850K it could be only 2x 580K if the pro-rata also applies. Edited December 21, 2020 by mll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTramFan Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) On 12/20/2020 at 3:25 PM, Arrow 1983 said: What would be really help full is that you post the roster that you had in mind and then we people that like Capfriendly could review it there. I truthfully can't see the Canucks having a 20 man roster or in this case 21 and still gaining cap space They can do it reasonably easily, but they are not gaining much in terms of cap space. Only $1.08m of space - just enough to allow for one recall from the taxi squad to cover a short term injury. Roster from Capfriendly pasted below with 20 active players, plus Ferland on IR (not counted in the 20 but his full cap hit is included). If Ferland is healthy, he will be able to play without any impact on the cap space. Without any further roster changes, my 6-man taxi squad would be: Baer, Eriksson, Benn, Brisebois, Chatfield, Kielly (I have put these guys all in the minors below, since that is how their cap hits would be accounted for while on the taxi squad). Edited December 21, 2020 by BigTramFan Posted wrong screen shot, corrected now 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpn1 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 On 12/21/2020 at 12:41 PM, BigTramFan said: They can do it reasonably easily, but they are not gaining much in terms of cap space. Only $1.08m of space - just enough to allow for one recall from the taxi squad to cover a short term injury. Roster from Capfriendly pasted below with 20 active players, plus Ferland on IR (not counted in the 20 but his full cap hit is included). If Ferland is healthy, he will be able to play without any impact on the cap space. Without any further roster changes, my 6-man taxi squad would be: Baer, Eriksson, Benn, Brisebois, Chatfield, Kielly (I have put these guys all in the minors below, since that is how their cap hits would be accounted for while on the taxi squad). Is there a reason you chose Keily over Mikie D? Mikie is the better goalie so do you want him in Utica to get more games or do you have another reason for not putting him on the taxi squad. Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenhodgejr Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) This is how I see it going. Competition will be intense for the bottom spots but I see the young prospects as having a higher ceiling than the veteran guys so Miller Pettersson Boeser Pearson Horvat Virtanen Roussel Sutter Gaudette Hawrlyuk Beagle Motte Hughes Myers Edler Schmidt Juolevi Benn Demko Hotly Taxi Squad 1. Goalie - Di Pietro 2. Left D - Rathbone 3. Right D - Chatfield or Rafferty 4. LW - Hoglander 5. C - Michaelis or Graovac 6. RW - MacEwan or Bailey when Podkolzin is ready Sutter or Roussel can go to make room Edited December 23, 2020 by kenhodgejr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) On 12/21/2020 at 12:41 PM, BigTramFan said: They can do it reasonably easily, but they are not gaining much in terms of cap space. Only $1.08m of space - just enough to allow for one recall from the taxi squad to cover a short term injury. Roster from Capfriendly pasted below with 20 active players, plus Ferland on IR (not counted in the 20 but his full cap hit is included). If Ferland is healthy, he will be able to play without any impact on the cap space. Without any further roster changes, my 6-man taxi squad would be: Baer, Eriksson, Benn, Brisebois, Chatfield, Kielly (I have put these guys all in the minors below, since that is how their cap hits would be accounted for while on the taxi squad). Probably shakes out something like that. They do also get to accumulate that space over the year as well. And I'd imagine guys like Rafferty (I don't think he requires waivers?) Get papered down on 'off' days to add that little bit of cumulative cap space on those days. Then come TDL, maybe we even see expiring guys like Sutter and Baer shipped out (likely with retention). Add that to our accumulated space and it should make room for adding Podkolzin and maybe a small add/upgrade elsewhere and/or covering some of the Petey/Hughes bonus overages. Edited December 23, 2020 by aGENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, aGENT said: Probably shakes out something like that. They do also get to accumulate that space over the year as well. And I'd imagine guys like Rafferty (I don't think he requires waivers?) Get papered down on 'off' days to add that little bit of cumulative cap space on those days. Then come TDL, maybe we even see expiring guys like Sutter and Baer shipped out (likely with retention). Add that to our accumulated space and it should make room for adding Podkolzin and maybe a small add/upgrade elsewhere and/or covering some of the Petey/Hughes bonus overages. Depends - looks like LTIR rules would still apply. Can't bank cap space if they are using part of Ferland's cap hit. If they can be below 81.5M including his 3.5M - then they should be able to bank some cap space. They are pro-rating the bonuses btw. Instead of 850K their target A is now 580K which will reduce an overage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, mll said: Depends - looks like LTIR rules would still apply. Can't bank cap space if they are using part of Ferland's cap hit. If they can be below 81.5M including his 3.5M - then they should be able to bank some cap space. They are pro-rating the bonuses btw. Instead of 850K their target A is now 580K which will reduce an overage. tbh I don't see how the Canucks will be able to do that this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 24 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: tbh I don't see how the Canucks will be able to do that this year. Should have looked at the chart better. That’s a roster of 20 including Ferland on IR. So looks like there is the option to bank cap space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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