Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management

[Tom Sestito]

1 hour ago, Patel Bure said:

That's quite the prediction you [liars] made a few years back.  You [liars] could possibly be the only people on the planet that predicted both Petey and Boeser falling off a cliff.  With predictions like that, I'm sure that you "25-30 year old geniuses" at HF can give us all stock tips and what not.  

I’ve seen you mention HFboards in every single post I’ve seen of yours on here but I don’t think anyone knows who you are? Feel free to come post there! 

[Alflives]

10 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

 

Same garbage I've been accustomed to.

 

Amateur psychologist nonsense.

So let’s see?  What team do you cheer for other than us?  Or are you a true fan and hate all other teams?  

[Patel Bure]

20 minutes ago, Tom Sestito said:

I’ve seen you mention HFboards in every single post I’ve seen of yours on here but I don’t think anyone knows who you are? Feel free to come post there! 

Was banned from there in 2020 since I called out Tantalum on his mediocre analysis of the Canucks bleeding high danger chances.   At the time, January 2020, the Canucks were winning almost every game which enraged Tantalum and MS for whatever reason (likely because a month before, both "men" predicted that the Canucks were going to play .300 hockey for the rest of the season since they had a tough December if I recall correctly).   

 

Anyways - In the month of January 2020 or whenever it was, Tantalum mentioned that the Canucks were winning because they were overly reliant on Markstrom and were bleeding high danger chances.  I then told Tantalum to take a closer look at the numbers.  Yes, Markstrom was getting peppered with high danger chances, and yes, we were being dominated possession wise, but only once we had taken the lead.  In other words, I pointed out to tantalum that he was creating a false narrative in which, "we were a crappy team hanging onto the tails of Jacob Markstrom," when in reality, we were a team that simply did not know how to play with a lead.   I mentioned to him that if we were such a bad team, we wouldn't be jumping out to leads almost every single game (which is what was happening), and that, our biggest problem was that we'd go into some weird "shell mode" of "playing not to lose" rather than "playing to win" once we had the lead.  

 

Tantalum then reported me to his buddy Mr Canucklehead, and I was booted.  

Edited November 26, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Westcoasting]

2 hours ago, Maddogy said:

People need to understand that the biggest crisis facing this team is not the coaching staff nor management team, it is Boeser and Pettersson. If Boeser and Pettersson are guaranteed franchise players then this season is nothing but a delay to the long term plan. New coaches and managers can be hired to continue on the path if needed. 

 

However, if the ownership and management team are all WRONG to build this team around Boeser and Pettersson...................................pain, endless pain.................................  

It’s an interesting situation right now, what if you hire all new management and the players don’t play well again. What if they fire all management and put Cull behind the bench and everything turns around. I still have no idea what the problem is, the players, the management, or is there more or are both the issue! 

[kanucks25]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

So let’s see?  What team do you cheer for other than us?  Or are you a true fan and hate all other teams?  

Why are you concerned about me being a "true fan"? And who decided upon the criteria? You? That makes it valid, how?

 

FWIW, I don't cheer for any other team. And the only reason I've continued to cheer for this team through 8 year dumpster fire is because I'm bound by birth.

[Westcoasting]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

So you want us to win, and even when winning in the bubble you wanted Benning fired?  

Remember if that year was anything normal the Nicks wouldn’t have qualified for the playoffs. Without the bubble performance a lot of fans assumed the team was way better than it actually was. Kinda like the 82 team that was fortunate that LA eliminated Edm in the knockout round of 5 games.

[NHL97OneTimer]

10 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

A lot of people outside of Vancouver, not emotionally connected to the Canucks also said it was a bad move for a team that only had 1 more bad year on the books (and like all past signings that kept us down) we are still losing and they predicted we  would this year

I thought we would be better than we are I really like Garland

 

I mentioned before that maybe a reason Benning and Green not moved yet, because the owner is aware of a rift between players, that don't wanna play on the same lines and giving them time to get the boys to behave, or secretly look to trading them (before it lessens their value when exposed)

That might be a plausible explanation as explaining why the players aren't performing and why Benning and Green are still here?

Remember the days when players would be benched for different reasons?  The little things to get players attention are seemingly lost these days.  This team apparently needs Ted Lasso and Led Tasso

[Pastafarian]

On 5/16/2021 at 6:59 PM, stawns said:

his post draft season was 42 points in 58 games, +26 on a knights team that was rebuilding.........how is that "looking rough"?

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/j/juoleol01.html

OJ was not even on the first line power play unit with the knights. Displaced by Mete.

[NHL97OneTimer]

12 hours ago, Master Mind said:

Personally I'd say the pathetic behaviour is mocking and ridiculing those that questioned any of Benning's moves over the past couple seasons.

 

I'm not saying you've done this, but there are many who have. Even if an "I told you so" wasn't the OP's intention, I wouldn't blame them for feeling that way.

 

Like the OP, I find it fascinating to see the amount of support Benning still receives to this day.

Many people are fickle or at least just show up and spout off when the conditions are safe for them to do so.  If Pettersson played as well as he could, many of those one goal losses may have gone our way.  Maybe if Boeser lived up to his contract, we'd have another few games under our belt.  And guess what, nobody would be calling for JB's job.  And yet players don't play at their level and it's the GM's responsibility.  Sure some may have been pissed with certain trades but professionals move on.

 

If you think this circus show is because of one GM, you're ignoring the rest of the problems.  You can say he hired them but where's the credit when they perform then?!!  JB owns his share of blame but this summer he removed ineffective players and he added effective players.  He signed EP and QH to reasonable salaries based on the info available at the time.  In fact, his EP contract signing looks brilliant right now vs the hoards of experts who wanted an 8-year contract.  

 

So.....this isn't support for JB so much, but more the suggestion that a rant with one finger pointed at one person is pretty ridiculous.  There are a number of guys who should have their time under a microscope right now.

[JohnTavares]

1 hour ago, Pastafarian said:

OJ was not even on the first line power play unit with the knights. Displaced by Mete.

Yup. Most people who actually watched the London Knights said Mete was equal to Juolevi, if not better.

[JohnTavares]

1 hour ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

Many people are fickle or at least just show up and spout off when the conditions are safe for them to do so.  If Pettersson played as well as he could, many of those one goal losses may have gone our way.  Maybe if Boeser lived up to his contract, we'd have another few games under our belt.  And guess what, nobody would be calling for JB's job.  And yet players don't play at their level and it's the GM's responsibility.  Sure some may have been pissed with certain trades but professionals move on.

 

If you think this circus show is because of one GM, you're ignoring the rest of the problems.  You can say he hired them but where's the credit when they perform then?!!  JB owns his share of blame but this summer he removed ineffective players and he added effective players.  He signed EP and QH to reasonable salaries based on the info available at the time.  In fact, his EP contract signing looks brilliant right now vs the hoards of experts who wanted an 8-year contract.  

 

So.....this isn't support for JB so much, but more the suggestion that a rant with one finger pointed at one person is pretty ridiculous.  There are a number of guys who should have their time under a microscope right now.

I don't understand why you are throwing Petey and Boeser under the bus and not acknowledging that Garland, OEL, Hoglander, Demko, Podkolzin and others are playing above their expected performance? 

 

If some of your "star" players are struggling and your team cannot support that, then the team is not a good team. Star players go through slumps - it's not really a big deal. It's a big deal when your team completely blows up because your star players aren't performing.

That comes back to roster construction... and guess who assembled it?  Yup... that's right, your best buddy Jimbo did.

 

I can easily point to how Demko consistently bails this team out every game.  Without Demko putting a god like performance almost every game, we'd be the worst team in the NHL. Some players overperform, some players underperform... that's sports man.  If your team cannot weather the storm when your stars are struggling, then it's a trash team.

[Master Mind]

57 minutes ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

Many people are fickle or at least just show up and spout off when the conditions are safe for them to do so.  If Pettersson played as well as he could, many of those one goal losses may have gone our way.  Maybe if Boeser lived up to his contract, we'd have another few games under our belt.  And guess what, nobody would be calling for JB's job.  And yet players don't play at their level and it's the GM's responsibility.  Sure some may have been pissed with certain trades but professionals move on.

 

If you think this circus show is because of one GM, you're ignoring the rest of the problems.  You can say he hired them but where's the credit when they perform then?!!  JB owns his share of blame but this summer he removed ineffective players and he added effective players.  He signed EP and QH to reasonable salaries based on the info available at the time.  In fact, his EP contract signing looks brilliant right now vs the hoards of experts who wanted an 8-year contract.  

 

So.....this isn't support for JB so much, but more the suggestion that a rant with one finger pointed at one person is pretty ridiculous.  There are a number of guys who should have their time under a microscope right now.

I don't solely place the blame on Benning. The coaching staff and the players are responsible too. As is the owner if he's influencing decisions. I don't see why that should garner unwavering support for the GM though.

 

Personally I thought Benning did an average job up until 2020. I didn't like many of his moves, but it was a work in progress, and there seemed to be a plan in place.

 

However, I think he's made several mistakes in recent years, ones that were apparent at the time they were made, not just in hindsight. I thought he should have been let go after last season.

 

Even if EP or Boeser or anyone else picked up the slack and got the team a few more wins, that would just be masking all the holes still left on the roster. If all players were playing at their best, I think we'd be in the mix for a playoff spot, but not a true contender. Sadly based on his track record, I don't see Benning as someone capable of assembling a team with that potential.

[kloubek]

I felt after the offseason that we had a good team. The only glaring hole I saw was a Tanev-like guy on the blueline and as much as Poolman has done well, he's just not that guy.

 

I also questioned a couple of the bottom 6 acquisitions, but whatever. Overall, I thought this was a forward group which had enough skilled depth that we would likely score in droves - which could offset the average D.

 

I haven't approved of all the moves JB has made (No GM has a perfect trade record) but believed he had made enough good ones and drafted well enough to have finally assembled a solid team with few glaring holes.

 

I maintain its still not a lack of talent in these players. This is a skilled group that has seen key guys lose confidence/passion and a crumbling of the team as a unit. 

 

I don't know why this is, or how to fix it, but I sure hope JB doesn't make desperation trades thinking it will help the dynamic. It won't. 

[Tom Sestito]

5 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Was banned from there in 2020 since I called out Tantalum on his mediocre analysis of the Canucks bleeding high danger chances.   At the time, January 2020, the Canucks were winning almost every game which enraged Tantalum and MS for whatever reason (likely because a month before, both "men" predicted that the Canucks were going to play .300 hockey for the rest of the season since they had a tough December if I recall correctly).   

 

Anyways - In the month of January 2020 or whenever it was, Tantalum mentioned that the Canucks were winning because they were overly reliant on Markstrom and were bleeding high danger chances.  I then told Tantalum to take a closer look at the numbers.  Yes, Markstrom was getting peppered with high danger chances, and yes, we were being dominated possession wise, but only once we had taken the lead.  In other words, I pointed out to tantalum that he was creating a false narrative in which, "we were a crappy team hanging onto the tails of Jacob Markstrom," when in reality, we were a team that simply did not know how to play with a lead.   I mentioned to him that if we were such a bad team, we wouldn't be jumping out to leads almost every single game (which is what was happening), and that, our biggest problem was that we'd go into some weird "shell mode" of "playing not to lose" rather than "playing to win" once we had the lead.  

 

Tantalum then reported me to his buddy Mr Canucklehead, and I was booted.  

To be fair to them, the canucks had bottom ten analytics in 19-20, were in 17th/31 teams + had like 4 regulation wins in 17 games and with a lot of injuries when the pandemic stopped the season short

 

We just scored a lot on the pp and had out of world goaltending + unsustainable bottom six production. I don’t see what was so wrong with tantalum’s assessment? 

[NHL97OneTimer]

45 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

I don't understand why you are throwing Petey and Boeser under the bus and not acknowledging that Garland, OEL, Hoglander, Demko, Podkolzin and others are playing above their expected performance? 

 

If some of your "star" players are struggling and your team cannot support that, then the team is not a good team. Star players go through slumps - it's not really a big deal. It's a big deal when your team completely blows up because your star players aren't performing.

That comes back to roster construction... and guess who assembled it?  Yup... that's right, your best buddy Jimbo did.

 

I can easily point to how Demko consistently bails this team out every game.  Without Demko putting a god like performance almost every game, we'd be the worst team in the NHL. Some players overperform, some players underperform... that's sports man.  If your team cannot weather the storm when your stars are struggling, then it's a trash team.

That's a lot of nonsense right there.  I didn't mention the performing players because they don't need to be mentioned.  They're not the problem.  And did JB not pick up Garland, OEL, Hoglander and Podkolzin?!!!  Where's the credit there?  

 

JB is not my buddy.  I hate stupid exaggerations like that.  My point is that JB is not solely to blame here because there are other people to point fingers at.  JB has done his job in a variety of ways and in some ways not.

 

Here's another perspective.  Go ahead and change the GM.  What does that change.  NOTHING!  Not now anyway.  Then you have to go through the process of waiting for a couple of years to see what changes can be made and how that works out (if the players decide to play and if they all get along).  How about change the coach first?  Can a new system and the right message change the team drastically?  It did in St. Louis.  If St. Louis changed the GM and not the coach, would that have given them a cup?

 

Again, not supporting JB.  Not loving JB like you may imply.  Just being practical. 

[NHL97OneTimer]

41 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

I don't solely place the blame on Benning. The coaching staff and the players are responsible too. As is the owner if he's influencing decisions. I don't see why that should garner unwavering support for the GM though.

 

Personally I thought Benning did an average job up until 2020. I didn't like many of his moves, but it was a work in progress, and there seemed to be a plan in place.

 

However, I think he's made several mistakes in recent years, ones that were apparent at the time they were made, not just in hindsight. I thought he should have been let go after last season.

 

Even if EP or Boeser or anyone else picked up the slack and got the team a few more wins, that would just be masking all the holes still left on the roster. If all players were playing at their best, I think we'd be in the mix for a playoff spot, but not a true contender. Sadly based on his track record, I don't see Benning as someone capable of assembling a team with that potential.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote.  I think this exactly.  The only reason I have defended him, is because I think it's ridiculous that some people on this board (not you obviously) believe that JB is solely the person who should take the blame and lose his job.  The team has stopped playing.  The effort isn't there with lots of players.  The system has been absent as they've looked disorganized from the get go.  Did Miller state that he doesn't know what they're all doing out there?  This isn't a GM problem, it's the coaching and the leadership on the ice.  

 

JB will go.  He's made some bad mistakes and shares the blame.  But oh man this team has failed him just as much as he's failed them.

[Patel Bure]

8 minutes ago, Tom Sestito said:

To be fair to them, the canucks had bottom ten analytics in 19-20, were in 17th/31 teams + had like 4 regulation wins in 17 games and with a lot of injuries when the pandemic stopped the season short

 

We just scored a lot on the pp and had out of world goaltending + unsustainable bottom six production. I don’t see what was so wrong with tantalum’s assessment? 

My biggest beef with him (and that site in general), is that they gave the Canucks no credit whatsoever due to their hatred of Benning.

 

1) The Canucks started 9-3-3 that season only due to a butter soft schedule.   #NoCredit

 

2) Again, that January 2020 situation.  Canucks won almost every game that month if memory serves me correctly, and yet the guys there attribute all/most of our victories to Markstrom, despite the fact that the Canucks were racing out to leads in almost every single one of those games.  Is it possible that our bottom 10 analytics had more to do with the fact that we were playing an ill-advsied shut down game upon racing out to those leads (which then lead us to being dominated possession wise, etc.). 

 

3) Before the 2020 covid outbreak, we won 2 of our last 3 games against the NYI and Colorado (two teams that finished in the 2nd round that year).  Yes we were slumping, but it's also possible that we were starting to turn things around.  We were tightening up defensively and were displaying much better gap control in those last 4 games, and Demko was starting to look like bubble Demko.  The main point?   We don't know what would have happened had the season gone on............and yet everyone at HF just automatically assumed that we would miss the playoffs because they hated Benning?  Want proof?  A year later in 2021, we went 8-3-2 in our best stretch of the year before our team covid outbreak.  Oddly enough, this 8-3-2 run happened after Pettersson got injured.  Did anyone at HF speculate that we might have caught the #4 seed had we not had the outbreak?  (just as they speculated about our playoff aspirations in 2020 before the covid outbreak?).   No.  Why? Because - they hate Benning.

 

4) You talk about "unsustainable bottom six production" and yet the posters on there were slamming Benning for overpaying their 3rd and 4th liners.  So which is it?  

 

5) We had out of world goaltending but who cares? When Buffalo went to the cup in 99, they had out of this world goaltending.  The Kings and Bruins had out of this world goaltending when they won their cups.  That's why teams invest in goaltending.  

 

6) Tantalum's assessment that we were getting dominated possession wise and were giving up high danger chances in 19-20 was only a half truth because those situations were only occurring after the Canucks would race out to leads (to which they would then play a dumb shut down style of hockey).  The "metrics" were a whole lot different before the Canucks would actually race out to these leads. That was what I called out tantalum on.

[JohnTavares]

45 minutes ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

That's a lot of nonsense right there.  I didn't mention the performing players because they don't need to be mentioned.  They're not the problem.  And did JB not pick up Garland, OEL, Hoglander and Podkolzin?!!!  Where's the credit there?  

 

JB is not my buddy.  I hate stupid exaggerations like that.  My point is that JB is not solely to blame here because there are other people to point fingers at.  JB has done his job in a variety of ways and in some ways not.

 

Here's another perspective.  Go ahead and change the GM.  What does that change.  NOTHING!  Not now anyway.  Then you have to go through the process of waiting for a couple of years to see what changes can be made and how that works out (if the players decide to play and if they all get along).  How about change the coach first?  Can a new system and the right message change the team drastically?  It did in St. Louis.  If St. Louis changed the GM and not the coach, would that have given them a cup?

 

Again, not supporting JB.  Not loving JB like you may imply.  Just being practical. 

You mentioned that Petey and Boes were underperforming, but not mentioning other players that were overperforming.  

Maybe one day you will just accept the reality that this team is not a good team.  It wasn't good last year and it isn't good this year.

 

JB is not solely to blame - that's correct, but he's the "leader" of the organization. Leadership starts top down, not the other way around. Jim is literally in charge of all hockey aspects of this organization. He hires the coaches, and builds this entire roster.  You can't point at some players underperforming and use that as an excuse to disregard that Jim Benning really built a terrible team given he's been here for 8 years.  

Changing the GM does nothing? You can't be this dense.  Changing the GM changes everything.  

Everyone in the organization is waiting for the shoe to drop so that they can move on and proceed with the new direction. Firing Green and keeping Benning honestly makes no sense because Benning literally vouched for Green and signed him to an extension a couple months ago.  If you are firing Benning, it almost surely means that you fire Green as well.

Firing Jim means Jim doesn't have a chance to trade future picks to salvage the season or make other panic transactions. Promoting someone to interim GM (Sedins? Courtnall?) and getting someone to oversee the hiring process makes the most sense. The longer we start this inevitable process, the worse position we are in. If we start the process now, we might be able to get a GM that can make moves according to the new direction by the trade deadline. 

 

Honestly, it was nice talking to you but I'm going to have to stop here. You clearly don't get the point.

[NHL97OneTimer]

8 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

You mentioned that Petey and Boes were underperforming, but not mentioning other players that were overperforming.  

Maybe one day you will just accept the reality that this team is not a good team.  It wasn't good last year and it isn't good this year.

 

JB is not solely to blame - that's correct, but he's the "leader" of the organization. Leadership starts top down, not the other way around. Jim is literally in charge of all hockey aspects of this organization. He hires the coaches, and builds this entire roster.  You can't point at some players underperforming and use that as an excuse to disregard that Jim Benning really built a terrible team given he's been here for 8 years.  

Changing the GM does nothing? You can't be this dense.  Changing the GM changes everything.  

Everyone in the organization is waiting for the shoe to drop so that they can move on and proceed with the new direction. Firing Green and keeping Benning honestly makes no sense because Benning literally vouched for Green and signed him to an extension a couple months ago.  If you are firing Benning, it almost surely means that you fire Green as well.

Firing Jim means Jim doesn't have a chance to trade future picks to salvage the season or make other panic transactions. Promoting someone to interim GM (Sedins? Courtnall?) and getting someone to oversee the hiring process makes the most sense. The longer we start this inevitable process, the worse position we are in. If we start the process now, we might be able to get a GM that can make moves according to the new direction by the trade deadline. 

 

Honestly, it was nice talking to you but I'm going to have to stop here. You clearly don't get the point.

Changing the GM does nothing NOW is what I said.  Yes, of course it does change things.  But in most cases, a new GM can't walk in, fleece the league and put together a run.  Changing a coach and fixing the inners of a locker room can have more rapid changes.

 

While you're so fixed on JB and only JB, here's what's dropped recently:  https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/canucks-culture-problem-drama-leaders

 

Like I said, JB has his blame but there's other issues going on that needs dealing with.  Changing the GM solves none of this.  Changing coaches, trading problem players or player leadership sure could though.

 

For some reason you're fixed on thinking that I defend JB to the end.  I have no idea why.  I've simply said that people like you are oversimplifying the issue by solely pointing at the GM.  I've never said this was a stellar team.  I said it should be performing better based on what's on paper.  Find me an analyst or pundit out there that truly believes that this team is a bottom 5 team on paper.

 

Perhaps those who have inside scoops in the media are correct.....we have a bunch of squabbling players on the team that's taking the group down.  Like I've said all along......it's a shame because these are pros.

Edited November 26, 2021 by NHL97OneTimer

[wallstreetamigo]

I see almost no one blaming ONLY JB. There is plenty of blame to go around.

 

Having said that, Benning refuses to address the coaching issues, has not proven able to add adequate depth players or build a 6 deep NHL quality defense, and has no answers left.

 

He has ultimate responsibility as the GM and defacto President. That’s why he needs to be the first one let go now.