[Trade] Canucks trade Jay Beagle, Loui Eriksson, Antoine Roussel, 2021 1st-round pick, 2022 2nd-round pick, 2023 7th-round pick to Coyotes for Oliver Ekman-Larsson, Conor Garland

[dougieL]

On 3/12/2023 at 7:05 AM, iinatcc said:

Well not this guy

 

 

Not these guys either:

 

[dougieL]

On 3/12/2023 at 5:43 AM, myre said:

And just consider how many people defended this trade and said how good it was.

People are still defending this trade, and defending OEL's play. Someone was even comparing OEL's play this season to that of Quinn Hughes 

[dougieL]

People who defend the Hronek trade - you need to understand that, in a capped league, you need to think about the SURPLUS VALUE that the player delivers. Is Hronek likely to deliver surplus value over the life of his next deal? Would you rather have the first round pick (in a deep draft) PLUS cap space or would you rather have Hronek? If you look at it that way, it's not as clear cut as you make it seem. 

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, dougieL said:

People are still defending this trade, and defending OEL's play. Someone was even comparing OEL's play this season to that of Quinn Hughes 

It would be a lot worse if that pick was an actual NHL difference maker. Guenther is craperolla. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, dougieL said:

People who defend the Hronek trade - you need to understand that, in a capped league, you need to think about the SURPLUS VALUE that the player delivers. Is Hronek likely to deliver surplus value over the life of his next deal? Would you rather have the first round pick (in a deep draft) PLUS cap space or would you rather have Hronek? If you look at it that way, it's not as clear cut as you make it seem. 

Hronek is a young right shot d who will anchor our second pairing for the next 8 years. He’s a fabulous add. And to think all it cost was Horfat! 4D chess by Allvin. Absolutely brilliant. 

[dougieL]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

It would be a lot worse if that pick was an actual NHL difference maker. Guenther is craperolla. 

That is technically true, but Guenther could play 0 NHL games from here on out, and this trade would still be craperolla to the power of 10.

[The Lock]

17 hours ago, Drakrami said:

If you think Hronek was a great trade, wait 2-3 years for it to potentially blow up in your face. To me, it’s unnecessary risk we took once again because we had no patience and reached for another quick bandaid that doesn’t fix our mediocrity. Once again another retool and the price this time is pretty steep. 
 

Once again about Pettersson and Hughes.. you know, Colorado went through a rebuild too with MacKinnon right there being 22-24 years old and they were selling. They understood they weren’t there and rebuild with MacKinnon. Canucks? Retooling since 2012 and bs reasoning to justify management’s actions like we need to care if Pettersson or Hughes is staying. 

The thing is, every trade has the potential to blow up in one's face just as much as every trade as the potential to become good trade. It doesn't matter if it looks like a good trade to start. It's just a blanket way of thinking.

 

And there's literally risks to every trade as well. Every draft pick has a risk associated with selecting the wrong player. Every player acquired has a risk of not being able to work out. You could even make an argument for a player coming in, doing well, and causing another player to not do well. You could literally come up with anything as an reason to not like a trade when it happens in EXACTLY the same way people come up with a reason to like a trade. Your logic here is no different than the people who like this trade. You are just on the other side of the coin in terms of what you think will happen.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm also in the boat of sighing a little that it's a "retool" and not a "rebuild" (whatever each of those are supposed to even mean to begin with, it's all buzzwords anyway). I'm also not fully impressed with things lately, but I don't see the point in whining and complaining at this point. Your say and my say?... it's kind of meaningless anyway, so why not just wait and see if this trade works out? Frustration gets us nowhere in the end when we have no say in what management actually does.

Edited March 17, 2023 by The Lock

[Alflives]

11 minutes ago, dougieL said:

That is technically true, but Guenther could play 0 NHL games from here on out, and this trade would still be craperolla to the power of 10.

Yup. As a fan I will support the club and look for the silver lining. But we heard this trade was bad news a year before it actually happened. I thought there was now way Benning would do it. And yet he still did. IMHAO this trade shows what an owner’s pressure can do to management making very bad choices. 

[myre]

30 minutes ago, dougieL said:

People are still defending this trade, and defending OEL's play. Someone was even comparing OEL's play this season to that of Quinn Hughes 

 unreal.

23 minutes ago, Alflives said:

It would be a lot worse if that pick was an actual NHL difference maker. Guenther is craperolla. 

Sure, seems awfully early to make that assertion also doesn't mean we had to select that player.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, myre said:

 unreal.

Sure, seems awfully early to make that assertion also doesn't mean we had to select that player.

Guenther sucks old pucks. He will play but won’t be anything. Still the trade was the worst in our team’s history. Worse than the Neely trade. 

[canucklehead44]

8 hours ago, Alflives said:

Guenther sucks old pucks. He will play but won’t be anything. Still the trade was the worst in our team’s history. Worse than the Neely trade. 

Huh? 6th in WJC scoring, 45 goals in 59 games his draft year and close to .5 points per game as a 19 year old. I’d bet good money he has 30 goal seasons in the NHL. What is it about his game you don’t like ? I’d probably trade our 3 or 4 top prospects straight up for him.

 

But this is worse than the Neely trade for sure. Pederson didn’t hamper us and was in the Ronning trade tree. I don’t think Neely would have been as good here. The draft pick hurts, but the people saying we would have selected Sakic (who went 15) are probably wrong when another Burnaby boy in Chris Joseph went 5th overall. 

[Timråfan]

9 hours ago, dougieL said:

The Sedin's also played a part in convincing Benning. In fact, in an SN5650 interview, Benning said the Sedin's played a big part in convincing him to add the second round pick that Arizona asked for, and that they did so because of how high they were on OEL. 

 

You can hear Daniel talk about OEL here - saying how he does everything to help the team win, and how he "took full responsibility" for his poor play in Arizona, whatever the hell that means. It would actually be funny to listen to if it weren't so depressing and infuriating.

 

 

I find it so interesting that people say Benning was so great scout.

Then there is evidence that players, scouts had a final say over Bennings great scouting knowledge.

Without Hammarström no Petey or Dahlen, without the Sedins no OEL or Loui. 
Benning sure blamed everyone else when he could.

 

 

So if Benning got help to every player drafted or traded he can’t take any credits for Petey, Demko or Hughes.

 

What do you say Dougie? 
Is Benning good or bad at drafting/trading? 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Timråfan

[dougieL]

2 hours ago, Timråfan said:

I find it so interesting that people say Benning was so great scout.

Then there is evidence that players, scouts had a final say over Bennings great scouting knowledge.

Without Hammarström no Petey or Dahlen, without the Sedins no OEL or Loui. 
Benning sure blamed everyone else when he could.

 

 

So if Benning got help to every player drafted or traded he can’t take any credits for Petey, Demko or Hughes.

 

What do you say Dougie? 
Is Benning good or bad at drafting/trading? 

I'm no Benning apologist if that's what you're implying. He holds the ultimate responsibility as GM, but can anyone deny with a straight face that the Sedin's gave him terrible advice regarding OEL?

[Ballisticsports.]

2 hours ago, dougieL said:

I'm no Benning apologist if that's what you're implying. He holds the ultimate responsibility as GM, but can anyone deny with a straight face that the Sedin's gave him terrible advice regarding OEL?

Glad you are not an apologist, but come on OEL wasn't an unknown anymore than LE was (whom Benning being with the same club knew very well) 

Draft choices are the scouts, but any GM who has seen pro players has more say and knowledge of them (and he failed there and handcuffed the team), finally it looks like they are  untangling the mess and better days will soon return

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, Ballisticsports. said:

Glad you are not an apologist, but come on OEL wasn't an unknown anymore than LE was (whom Benning being with the same club knew very well) 

Draft choices are the scouts, but any GM who has seen pro players has more say and knowledge of them (and he failed there and handcuffed the team), finally it looks like they are  untangling the mess and better days will soon return

IMHAO our owner takes some responsibility for the OEL trade too. He was (still is) constantly pushing his GM to improve the team in the moment. It’s, of course, up to the GM to make good trades (like what Allvin did moving Bo and getting us Hronek, new Beau, and Raty) but the push from ownership can influence the GM into bad moves. 

[Ballisticsports.]

21 minutes ago, Alflives said:

IMHAO our owner takes some responsibility for the OEL trade too. He was (still is) constantly pushing his GM to improve the team in the moment. It’s, of course, up to the GM to make good trades (like what Allvin did moving Bo and getting us Hronek, new Beau, and Raty) but the push from ownership can influence the GM into bad moves. 

I think a GM has to put forward the reason to a owner and make his point, but a GM with integrity will say look i was hired to make these this a better team, it is me who is held responsible

Here's Aqua agreeing with what i say

At one point, Aquilini said: “Jim makes the hockey decisions. He talks to me all the time and I support him. There’s no shortcuts.”

and Benning response to one of his many gaffes

 Benning admitted, than his phone call to Aquilini last week to tell the owner he’d be paying $6.3 million USD for veteran Sam Gagner to play in the minors the next two seasons. Gagner, signed by Benning as a free agent only 15 months earlier

 

“It was a hard conversation,” Benning said. “I tried to explain to him that we had signed Sam but we felt younger players had outperformed him at camp. I was talking about (Nikolay) Goldobin, mostly. We had to make a hard decision on that, and it was hard to have to call him up and explain it. But at the end of the conversation he understood. That was the hardest call I’ve had to make to him.”

Aquilini told Sportsnet: “When they made that decision to put Sam in the minors, when they told me, I wasn’t happy about it. I mean, it’s $3 million (per season). It’s crazy, but that’s what was necessary.”

 

He signed so many overpriced players to long term contracts, that cost us picks to get and get rid of even after recently acquiring them, or they sat on the bench, in the minors, or on someone else's bench while we paid them too

 

[Timråfan]

4 hours ago, dougieL said:

I'm no Benning apologist if that's what you're implying. He holds the ultimate responsibility as GM, but can anyone deny with a straight face that the Sedin's gave him terrible advice regarding OEL?

I assume they were biased since they know how good he was. 
But then it’s Bennings job to see if OEL fits the core and are good enough for the salary.

Similar to Loui because Sedins probably said good things about him also. 
Ultimately Benning made two mistakes regarding those players because he wasn’t good as a scout.

Just look at what made Loui good, both in the national team and par example Dallas.

Is Greens hockey suitabke for Loui or Oel? 
Benning didn’t have the knowledge to know those thibgs. 

[cripplereh]

That is it the GM when hired knows what the owner wants.Saying that it is the GM's job to make the team into a winner.I do think JB did listen to much to players and near the end dud everything he could to keep his job making the OEL deal.

[dougieL]

8 hours ago, Ballisticsports. said:

I think a GM has to put forward the reason to a owner and make his point, but a GM with integrity will say look i was hired to make these this a better team, it is me who is held responsible

Here's Aqua agreeing with what i say

At one point, Aquilini said: “Jim makes the hockey decisions. He talks to me all the time and I support him. There’s no shortcuts.”

and Benning response to one of his many gaffes

 Benning admitted, than his phone call to Aquilini last week to tell the owner he’d be paying $6.3 million USD for veteran Sam Gagner to play in the minors the next two seasons. Gagner, signed by Benning as a free agent only 15 months earlier

 

“It was a hard conversation,” Benning said. “I tried to explain to him that we had signed Sam but we felt younger players had outperformed him at camp. I was talking about (Nikolay) Goldobin, mostly. We had to make a hard decision on that, and it was hard to have to call him up and explain it. But at the end of the conversation he understood. That was the hardest call I’ve had to make to him.”

Aquilini told Sportsnet: “When they made that decision to put Sam in the minors, when they told me, I wasn’t happy about it. I mean, it’s $3 million (per season). It’s crazy, but that’s what was necessary.”

 

He signed so many overpriced players to long term contracts, that cost us picks to get and get rid of even after recently acquiring them, or they sat on the bench, in the minors, or on someone else's bench while we paid them too

 

 

8 hours ago, Timråfan said:

I assume they were biased since they know how good he was. 
But then it’s Bennings job to see if OEL fits the core and are good enough for the salary.

Similar to Loui because Sedins probably said good things about him also. 
Ultimately Benning made two mistakes regarding those players because he wasn’t good as a scout.

Just look at what made Loui good, both in the national team and par example Dallas.

Is Greens hockey suitabke for Loui or Oel? 
Benning didn’t have the knowledge to know those thibgs. 

 

9 hours ago, Ballisticsports. said:

Glad you are not an apologist, but come on OEL wasn't an unknown anymore than LE was (whom Benning being with the same club knew very well) 

Draft choices are the scouts, but any GM who has seen pro players has more say and knowledge of them (and he failed there and handcuffed the team), finally it looks like they are  untangling the mess and better days will soon return

 

Absolutely - as I said, the GM bears the ultimately responsibility as the final decision maker. But am I not correct that the GM is not meant to arrive at decisions unilaterally? Is he not meant to solicit advice from those around him, then make decisions based on the advice he receives?

 

In Drance's recent piece looking back on the OEL trade, he stated that there was an internal debate as to whether OEL's later years should be viewed as anchor years for which the Canucks should receive assets from Arizona for taking on (similar to how Leafs paid to get off Marleau). Read:

 

"It was noted in internal debates on the Canucks side that at least a couple of the latter years of the Ekman-Larsson deal were likely to be very inefficient, which should — based on the Patrick Marleau trade comparable — probably be recognized with the Coyotes sending additional futures to Vancouver. Ultimately that logic wasn’t reflected in the final version of the deal."

 

Now put this together with the Sedin's public support of OEL, plus Benning saying that they were the ones who convinced him to give Arizona the second round pick they wanted for OEL. With all of these facts, there is a very real possibility that the Sedin's played no small part in the OEL part of this trade. Again, I'm not absolving Benning of this trade. He loved OEL even before the Sedin's ever joined the team, and ultimately pulled the trigger on the trade. But these are the facts. Make of them what you will.

[dougieL]

Also:

 

The Canucks prioritized retention, while the Coyotes prioritized landing excess draft capital in the deal. Armstrong dragged Vancouver to upgrade the pick to a second-rounder, and then demanded a seventh-rounder to get the deal across the line. That was the final pound of flesh included in the deal, once the Coyotes agreed to retain about 15 percent of Ekman-Larsson’s cap hit.

 

This is consistent with Benning saying that Arizona wanted the second round pick (which, as he said, the Sedin's convinced him to give).