FIRE Jim Benning & Travis Green Thread

[kanucks25]

[kanucks25]

7 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Why? Do you have insider info as to whom else might have been in competition for his services?

Does it matter?

 

He's not a 6 million dollar player, so you don't overpay him.

Simple as that.

 

I don't care if he was a UFA, RFA, college player... I don't care.

 

It's stupid to overpay, especially for a player that isn't going to put you over the top, especially at a time when you're not seriously competing.

 

It should be a pretty simple concept.

 

The same garbage was used to explain/defend the Loui signing. Talk about "learning from your mistakes."

Edited November 14, 2021 by kanucks25

[Chris12345]

6 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Totally.

 

I get it people hate Green but he had Burroughs, Bowey, and Hunt on defense.

 

There is nothing wrong with Myers or Hughes but they aren't winning a Norris any time soon.

 

Wtf do you do with that backend?

Edited November 14, 2021 by Chris12345

[kanucks25]

14 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

Disagree with Benning.  If we get rid of Benning, it will be purely for a show as there's nothing that a new GM could do this year, and if anything a new GM might slow down the rate of change on our roster.  

 

I think that Green's job depends on our game tomorrow in Anaheim.  

What do you mean purely for a show?

 

If you can replace a bad employee with a good one you do it yesterday, simple as that.

 

There's no reason not to other than Aqua's money (and nobody knows if the reason he won't pull the trigger is finance related).

 

If anything it's a good thing - it'll give the new GM more time/information to assess what needs to be done next summer.

Edited November 14, 2021 by kanucks25

[Bure_of_94]

22 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

I think if  Benning goes in the near future, then there’s a good chance you seen any of Horvat, Hughes, Boeser, Pettersson, Miller traded... if not all of them. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Bure_of_94

[RWJC]

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

Does it matter?

 

He's not a 6 million dollar player, so you don't overpay him.

Simple as that.

 

I don't care if he was a UFA, RFA, college player... I don't care.

 

It's stupid to overpay, especially for a player that isn't going to put you over the top, especially at a time when you're not seriously competing.

 

It should be a pretty simple concept.

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/free-agents/2019/defenseman/ufa/
 

Jake Gardiner (same age) got 4mil x 4yrs

 

Anton Stralman (at almost 33 years old) got 5.5 x 3yrs

 

these 3 were the top UFA dmen that year, meaning slim pickings.

Myers was acquired without having to lose an asset in return. That’s a positive.
 

In hindsight is it a bit of an overpayment? Sure, I’d agree with that. But did it bolster the blue line stability, provide some size and 2 way efficiency, enable various line combos, and provide veteran leadership and experience? Yes.

 

I can think of many, many worse examples of UFA signings that went sideways. 

 

[DSVII]

1 hour ago, D.B Cooper said:

Tell that to Ottawa, Florida, Arizona, etc… and a bunch of other teams who perpetually suck because they don’t have the funds or owner to spend to the cap to actually compete.  

Florida spends to the cap. Even the Sabres spent to the cap during the Eichel era. It's not uncommon for teams that are trying to compete. There's only one Eugene Melnyk in this league. Teams are more often than not, given the funds to operate.

 

And as for perpetually sucking, we've been keeping fine company since 2014

 

 

 

 

[kanucks25]

1 minute ago, RWJC said:

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/free-agents/2019/defenseman/ufa/
 

Jake Gardiner (same age) got 4mil x 4yrs

 

Anton Stralman (at almost 33 years old) got 5.5 x 3yrs

 

these 3 were the top UFA dmen that year, meaning slim pickings.

Who cares?

 

2 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Myers was acquired without having to lose an asset in return. That’s a positive.

6M x 6Y is an asset, a very valuable one.

 

You need to dive deeper in your asset analysis.

 

1 minute ago, RWJC said:

But did it bolster the blue line stability, provide some size and 2 way efficiency, enable various line combos, and provide veteran leadership and experience? Yes

"Enable various line combos"? LOL what does this even mean?

 

Blue line stability? Myers is not a D-man that can be trusted from shift-to-shift. 

 

Veteran leadership? Sure. As we've found out under Benning, nothing is more key to team success than overpaying for veteran UFA's. 

[RWJC]

15 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Who cares?

 

6M x 6Y is an asset, a very valuable one.

 

You need to dive deeper in your asset analysis.

 

"Enable various line combos"? LOL what does this even mean?

 

Blue line stability? Myers is not a D-man that can be trusted from shift-to-shift. 

 

Veteran leadership? Sure. As we've found out under Benning, nothing is more key to team success than overpaying for veteran UFA's. 

I appreciate your opinion, but far more goes into a UFA signing than you’re acknowledging. 
 

as for Myers as an asset, I’ll take his pedigree over your analysis. Guy’s been an effective performer in the league for years (since 2009), He’s never a healthy scratch, his career TOI is way up there which means he’s been relied on by coaches on each team he’s played. His career average is I think around a 0.4 ppg player for a Dman. He stays healthy, he does have some snarl to his game, his reach is invaluable (much like Willie Mitchell’s), and he can play anywhere in the 6 and adjust to whomever is his linemate.

 

He can be positioned as either a PP2 Dman or even play down low on the PK (again - his wingspan/ reach).
 

he’s respected by teammates, he even tried to help mentor JV by taking to him into his own home and reshaping how he sees his role and career. 
 

Myers is a team guy any which way you slice it. 
 

is he worth 6 mill? Probably not, but depends on who you ask and what else he brings to the team. Did the Nux absolutely need someone of that pedigree and character at that time on D?  YUP.

Edited November 14, 2021 by RWJC

[kanucks25]

9 minutes ago, RWJC said:

as for Myers as an asset, I’ll take his pedigree over your analysis. Guy’s been an effective performer in the league for years (since 2009), He’s never a healthy scratch, his career TOI is way up there which means he’s been relied on by coaches on each team he’s played. His career average is I think around a 0.4 ppg player for a Dman. He stays healthy, he does have some snarl to his game, his reach is invaluable (much like Willie Mitchell’s), and he can play anywhere in the top 6 and adjust to whomever is his linemate.

I don't hate Myers as a player in a vacuum and I understand the worth of his "leadership".

 

If he was on a 3x3 contract instead of 6x6, you could be satisfied with what we're getting based on what he's being paid.

 

Nate Schmidt is a better player than Tyler Myers making similar money and he got traded twice for a 3rd round pick straight up.

 

So what do you think Myers is worth? Think of the return we would get for him with no salary retained/coming back, and then think to yourself "is this a return a good player would garner?"

 

Hint: NO.

 

And then you'll understand why the contract is a negative asset.

 

9 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Did the Nux absolutely need someone of that pedigree and character at that time on D?  YUP.

No, we don't need negative assets - ever, at any time.

 

Are mistakes going to happen and you'll end up with some here and there? Sure.

 

But we've had way too many of these under Benning.

Edited November 14, 2021 by kanucks25

[D.B Cooper]

25 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Florida spends to the cap. Even the Sabres spent to the cap during the Eichel era. It's not uncommon for teams that are trying to compete. There's only one Eugene Melnyk in this league. Teams are more often than not, given the funds to operate.

 

And as for perpetually sucking, we've been keeping fine company since 2014

 

 

 

 

Florida does now….  
There is a cap floor for a reason. 

Lots of teams have purposefully tanked, internal cap, cheap owners.  
This isn’t new. 
 

The Aqua’s meddling has no proof at all and seems a lot more mike typical bitter Canucks fans nonsense. 
 

Our management sucks.   
They are still given everything they need to succeed. 

[iinatcc]

11 hours ago, whysoserious said:

.

 

In his 8 years, he has not shown he is able to construct a quality roster without huge holes. We're looking at a roster of a team that's the product of five top 10 picks as well as trading multiple 1st and 2nd round picks. We had to ice 3 AHL defensemen tonight. Aside from Hughes, Benning has failed to develop or acquire any quality defensemen. He took a huge risk with OEL and it still remains to be seen whether it backfires, Myers has looked pretty good this year but has fallen back down to Earth in recent games. Poolman has yet to show that he's much more than a bottom pairing guy. Hamonic has barely played.

 

.

Exactly I can't remember a GM in recent memory who let go of so many draft picks  and got so few back like Benning while getting so little results 

 

Over the last 2 seasons Benning gave up 

2 1st round picks

1 2nd round pick 

1 3rd round pick 

 

And, if this keeps up, Canucks will miss the playoffs in those 2 years.

 

Sorry this is Maple Leafs territory bad when Burke gave up 2 1sts and a 2nd to trade for Kessel. And I am pretty sure many at the time were laughing at the Leafs for making that trade

[RWJC]

14 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

I don't hate Myers as a player in a vacuum and I understand the worth of his "leadership".

 

If he was on a 3x3 contract instead of 6x6, you could be satisfied with what we're getting based on what he's being paid.

 

Nate Schmidt is a better player than Tyler Myers making similar money and he got traded twice for a 3rd round pick straight up.

 

So what do you think Myers is worth? Think of the return we would get for him with no salary retained/coming back, and then think to yourself "is this a return a good player would garner?"

 

Hint: NO.

 

And then you'll understand why the contract is a negative asset.

I get what you’re saying and to a degree I agree with it. The problem is he was never going to sign anywhere for just 3mill, and if that was the case he would have had his option of any team in the league and could have chosen a perennial contender. 
 

And every team carries negative asset contracts. EVERY TEAM.

It’s just a matter of time as to when that occurs. Imho, Myers has not breached that line yet. 
By your logic, we should be dumping OEL right now too. 
 

Schmidt is an anomaly. He was rapidly dumped for a 3rd to make room for Pieterangelo. Oh yeah, wasn’t he UFA? What are his point totals right now?

oh and how much did he sign for and term (please include any bonus money)?

 

Schmidt was traded away for a 3rd because of internal team issues that were known throughout the league. That was his value at the time based on the experiment in Vancouver, where he didn’t fit. GMs knew what he was acquired for and likely weren’t going to pony up much more than that because it would be admitting a mistake for not making the initial move with VGK to begin with. 
 

again, I think you’re concentrating too hard on on your own perceived value of Myers and not actually applying league wide analytics/other contract examples to quantify a complete argument. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by RWJC

[iinatcc]

7 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

There is no real reason to keep or fire Benning. 
I don’t think the issue here lies with the players.    I think other than the 4th line and 3rd D pairing, the team actually looks pretty good.  
!   

 

Canucks gave up 7 goals in the last 2 games and went 3-4-1 at home. I don't see how that can be considered pretty good. 

[kanucks25]

4 minutes ago, RWJC said:

I get what you’re saying and to a degree I agree with it. The problem is he was never going to sign anywhere for just 3mill, and if that was the case he would have had his option of any team in the league and could have chosen a perennial contender. 

Fine, then don't sign him. Let him be overpaid elsewhere.

 

7 minutes ago, RWJC said:

By your logic, we should be dumping OEL right now too.

I mean, I would if we could. But we'd have to pay a crapload of assets or take back similar salary to do it.

 

8 minutes ago, RWJC said:

GMs knew what he was acquired for and likely weren’t going to pony up much more than that because it would be admitting a mistake for not making the initial move with VGK to begin with.

This is quite presumptuous logic, to say the least. 

 

9 minutes ago, RWJC said:

again, I think you’re concentrating too hard on on your own perceived value of Myers and not actually applying league wide analytics/other contract examples to quantify a complete argument. 

I guess this is where we disagree. I don't really care what other bad contracts / negative assets are scattered throughout the league.

 

It simply does not justify mistakes here.

 

Like, I don't pay $2,000 for a cell phone. I think it's dumb. I don't care what other people spend, I don't care that it's the going rate for a top-end phone.

 

It doesn't matter to me, what matters to me is what makes sense for me and my finances.

Signing a ~30 year-old bottom-half of your lineup on a contender D-man to a long-term contract when you're not close to competing is foolish. It's completely foolish to tie up your cap in this way. Go look at Detroit's capfriendly page to get an idea of what a cap structure should look like in a proper rebuild.

 

You're not considering the domino effect on our cap. No Myers means we probably retain Tanev and so many of the problems we've faced since letting him go (both on and off the ice) are greatly diminished.

[D.B Cooper]

6 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

Canucks gave up 7 goals in the last 2 games and went 3-4-1 at home. I don't see how that can be considered pretty good. 

Because they are coached by a horrible coach……

Horvat is a quality top 6 on any team. 
Hughes is a top 10-15 dman in the league.  
Demko is a an awesome goalie. 

The players aren’t the biggest part of the problem 

[iinatcc]

1 minute ago, D.B Cooper said:

Because they are coached by a horrible coach……

Horvat is a quality top 6 on any team. 
Hughes is a top 10-15 dman in the league.  
Demko is a an awesome goalie. 

The players aren’t the biggest part of the problem 

Yeah but the coaching staff is still part of the team. 

[D.B Cooper]

Just now, iinatcc said:

Yeah but the coaching staff is still part of the team. 

No shyte.     Lol. 
And they suck.  
What’s your point?

[iinatcc]

1 minute ago, D.B Cooper said:

No shyte.     Lol. 
And they suck.  
What’s your point?

If the coaching sucks then the team can't be any good (especially if they are losing) 

[flickyoursedin]

I hate to be a stats chaser but Oliver Kylington waived midway through training camp then called back up and plays 18 minutes a night average for the flames and has 10 points in 14 games now. I know Benning is head hunting for a RHD but come on this guy is better than Hunt, Schenn, Burroughs and Bowey and he just keeps what he’s got to what reserve his high waiver priority? As if somebody is going to drop a good RHD that we’ll need a high waiver priority to get. When the opportunity comes up you gotta upgrade even if it’s his 7 or 8 dman because Kylington while he only would have been an upgrade on our 7 and 8 dmen he’s taken a step this year and would probably be our number 5 with potential.