Canucks record on drafting and developing talent

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I put some of the blame Benning for bad picks and some of the credit for good picks on Benning. I am not delusional enough to consider him a drafting guru though. His overall record is good but not great. 

Yep same with me.   Good when we needed us to be good might make some thinks he's great .... but not me ... good is about exactly where he should be considered after average drafting position is considered.  

[Timråfan]

34 minutes ago, IBatch said:

  The only guy as of a few games ago - in very limited time also - that hadn't been scored on yet was Burroughs

So what am I reading/understanding wrong here?

https://www.eliteprospects.com/team/77/vancouver-canucks

 

+/- is Poolman at 5 with three point.

I thought that meant he hasn’t been on the ice when scored on.

Burroughs is -6 with one pont wich I thought meant he was on the ice when oppo scored seven times.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Timråfan

[wallstreetamigo]

16 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yep same with me.   Good when we needed us to be good might make some thinks he's great .... but not me ... good is about exactly where he should be considered after average drafting position is considered.  

That’s where I think the extreme arguments both for and against Benning go off the rails. He is good at drafting and outside of EP on the good side and Virtanen on the bad side he really made high picks that were right around where they were consensus projected to go. Even Juolevi at the time was not a bad pick. Just looks worse based on hindsight really. 

[BlakeQuinnAndEggs]

13 hours ago, IBatch said:

Doesn't take Hansen to say that .... it takes observations of the roster and how they played early.   Last season our PK was better but still not that very good either - and that was with Edler on the left side taking the most minutes with Myers taking about the same on the right side.   Poolman Myers is the worst combo so far.   And Poolman was WNP worst PKer last year on the D ... what are we supposed to expect TG to do perform some miracles?   Guys been an assistant coach or coach since when exactly!?  2008.   He put his time in the right way.   What blows my mind is how bad it actually is.   And how JB and TG didn't make sure that we kept OJ .... because Rathbone and QHs can't do it!   Burroughs has done ok...but we need a third pairing LHD that can kill PKs.  And also need a bottom six that can as well.   Burroughs hasn't played much PK either ... Hamonic helps a little ...

Ya Benning had tunnel vision and completely forgot there's a defensive side of the puck it seems.

 

The OJ trade made no sense, letting tanev walk made no sense. At the end of the day though our best players aren't our best players.

 

I want change, i think most of us do.

 

They could go on a 10 game win streak and I'd still want Benning and Green fired.

 

This team has many fans checked out, I bet viewer ratings for Canucks games are very low right now compared to previous years 

[EddieVedder]

21 hours ago, IBatch said:

Doesn't take Hansen to say that .... it takes observations of the roster and how they played early.   Last season our PK was better but still not that very good either - and that was with Edler on the left side taking the most minutes with Myers taking about the same on the right side.   Poolman Myers is the worst combo so far.   And Poolman was WNP worst PKer last year on the D ... what are we supposed to expect TG to do perform some miracles?   Guys been an assistant coach or coach since when exactly!?  2008.   He put his time in the right way.   What blows my mind is how bad it actually is.   And how JB and TG didn't make sure that we kept OJ .... because Rathbone and QHs can't do it!   Burroughs has done ok...but we need a third pairing LHD that can kill PKs.  And also need a bottom six that can as well.   Burroughs hasn't played much PK either ... Hamonic helps a little ...

Yah its crazy but ppl on these boards were calling Poolman better than Tanev.  Goes to show how little most on here know about hockey.  

Been saying it all along.  The team is scared to block shots.  I dont know what the numbers are but i seriously can only remember one deliberate shot block on pk all year. Hows that possible?  Just tells me that this team has players that do not want to win.  We had so much character on this team even 2 years ago.  There needs to be a lesson in this for management. You cant replace the heart and leadership of guys like tanev, edler, stetcher, mack.  

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, Timråfan said:

So what am I reading/understanding wrong here?

https://www.eliteprospects.com/team/77/vancouver-canucks

 

+/- is Poolman at 5 with three point.

I thought that meant he hasn’t been on the ice when scored on.

Burroughs is -6 with one pont wich I thought meant he was on the ice when oppo scored seven times.

We are talking about the PK, which isn't counted in plus minus ... if it was OEL, Myers and Poolman would have awful plus minus ... a couple games ago, OEL and Myers were second in the league with allowed PP goals against 11 each i think, Poolman wasn't far behind (and the Poolman Myers PK was the worst per minute, OEL Myers was actually somewhat ok...), Burroughs in a limited sample size think 9 shifts, was the only PKer not to get scored on.   Think Fanside did an article covering this ... how it's a personnel problem too, which ive been saying since game one - your bottom pairing guys all need to be able to PK...what happens when OEL gets a penalty lol?...screwed.    And Rathbone tried but couldn't do it ... even QHs has had a few shifts now because they just don't have many options - Burroughs might end up getting more time, but doubt he's going to fix it either.    Poolman was WNP worst defensemen that killed penalties last season, ranked 5th....that said we really shouldn't be this bad either.   You'd think maybe 70-75% with this group.

Edited November 24, 2021 by IBatch

[IBatch]

37 minutes ago, EddieVedder said:

Yah its crazy but ppl on these boards were calling Poolman better than Tanev.  Goes to show how little most on here know about hockey.  

Been saying it all along.  The team is scared to block shots.  I dont know what the numbers are but i seriously can only remember one deliberate shot block on pk all year. Hows that possible?  Just tells me that this team has players that do not want to win.  We had so much character on this team even 2 years ago.  There needs to be a lesson in this for management. You cant replace the heart and leadership of guys like tanev, edler, stetcher, mack.  

I'm not sure why anyone would assume Poolman he'd be replacing Tanev, more like a long term slight upgrade on Benn replacement, at least that was how i saw it.    Hamonic is more of a 5 too really.   Myers is the only legit top four RHD we have and man the amount of whining about him is always around, just like the Edler whining.    I don't know about the leadership.... OEL should at least help in that department one would think anyways.    Sure not happy to lose both of Gadj and Mack.    

[Timråfan]

10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

We are talking about the PK, which isn't counted in plus minus ... if it was OEL, Myers and Poolman would have awful plus minus ... a couple games ago, OEL and Myers were second in the league with allowed PP goals against 11 each i think, Poolman wasn't far behind (and the Poolman Myers PK was the worst per minute, OEL Myers was actually somewhat ok...), Burroughs in a limited sample size think 9 shifts, was the only PKer not to get scored on.   Think Fanside did an article covering this ... how it's a personnel problem too, which ive been saying since game one - your bottom pairing guys all need to be able to PK...what happens when OEL gets a penalty lol?...screwed.    And Rathbone tried but couldn't do it ... even QHs has had a few shifts now because they just don't have many options - Burroughs might end up getting more time, but doubt he's going to fix it either.    Poolman was WNP worst defensemen that killed penalties last season, ranked 5th....that said we really shouldn't be this bad either.   You'd think maybe 70-75% with this group.

Ok, PK and PP not included. Thanks for that information. 

[WeneedLumme]

12 hours ago, Timråfan said:

Ok, PK and PP not included. Thanks for that information. 

However, although they don't get a plus for a goal scored on the PP, or a minus for a goal against on the PK, they do get a plus for scoring a shorthanded goal and a minus when they allow one.

[Dr. Crossbar]

1 hour ago, WeneedLumme said:

However, although they don't get a plus for a goal scored on the PP, or a minus for a goal against on the PK, they do get a plus for scoring a shorthanded goal and a minus when they allow one.

Have you ever suggested firing the coach and GM? 

[Hairy Kneel]

Canucks fb page :

"One problem with situations these days is that the great young talent has not had to face any hurdles, as no riding the pine, no up and down to the minors, no hard ass training camps yo just make the team. On most cases once you are drafted you are on the team. The CBA does not allow for players to go down to the minors very easily...if a player has a $&!# game...they generally shake it off and try harder the next game."

 

I agree that in the old days you could send guys down way easier. Now you can't, like with Jake and McCaan. They get here and your stuck with them. 

We need more flexibility to get the most out of our rosters. Some players fake their way into roster spots and fade quickly. This is a league and union problem. 

[combover]

4 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

Canucks fb page :

"One problem with situations these days is that the great young talent has not had to face any hurdles, as no riding the pine, no up and down to the minors, no hard ass training camps yo just make the team. On most cases once you are drafted you are on the team. The CBA does not allow for players to go down to the minors very easily...if a player has a $&!# game...they generally shake it off and try harder the next game."

 

I agree that in the old days you could send guys down way easier. Now you can't, like with Jake and McCaan. They get here and your stuck with them. 

We need more flexibility to get the most out of our rosters. Some players fake their way into roster spots and fade quickly. This is a league and union problem. 

Jake was sent down green coached him in Utica. 

McCain  was thrown away. 

i get what your saying but but it comes back to management on how and where assets start their careers. 
look at our system doesn’t give me a lot of faith when we have 1 guy a goaltender in 8 seasons that’s come from our farm. Pretty pathetic 
 

Edited November 26, 2021 by combover

[Hairy Kneel]

2 hours ago, combover said:

Jake was sent down green coached him in Utica. 

McCain  was thrown away. 

i get what your saying but but it comes back to management on how and where assets start their careers. 
look at our system doesn’t give me a lot of faith when we have 1 guy a goaltender in 8 seasons that’s come from our farm. Pretty pathetic 
 

Wasn't it they couldn't get sent to Utica to develop their pro game. And they could only be sent back to juniors where they wouldn't have much more to learn. Like union rules or some such. 

And waiver wire rules that benefit bottom end players from being sent down. At the risk of losing them. 

Plus I don't think we have the most adept trainers. Tampa maxed out it's use of injuries and cap. Sometimes I feel we're too honest about injuries. 

When LE was injured we should have kept him there. 

[combover]

8 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said:

Wasn't it they couldn't get sent to Utica to develop their pro game. And they could only be sent back to juniors where they wouldn't have much more to learn. Like union rules or some such. 

And waiver wire rules that benefit bottom end players from being sent down. At the risk of losing them. 

Plus I don't think we have the most adept trainers. Tampa maxed out it's use of injuries and cap. Sometimes I feel we're too honest about injuries. 

When LE was injured we should have kept him there. 

Gotcha 

Yeah I hate the go to back to junior rule when it’s clear they need to be at the next level.