Canucks record on drafting and developing talent

[73 Percent]

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

This is assuming Aqua actually listens to them and isn't just doing this for PR.

 

I imagine it's not cheap but... I mean who knows with this organization these days.

Lol funny story about this. My work hired a safety consultant from Quebec to come down and suggest improvents and whatnot. Pretty much an expensive extra set of eyes. 

 

Then

 

 

They ignored his recommendations lol 

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

This is assuming Aqua actually listens to them and isn't just doing this for PR.

 

I imagine it's not cheap but... I mean who knows with this organization these days.

its a good sign. It likely also has to do with how the whole group runs, not just the player side.

[kanucks25]

11 minutes ago, 73 Percent said:

Lol funny story about this. My work hired a safety consultant from Quebec to come down and suggest improvents and whatnot. Pretty much an expensive extra set of eyes. 

 

Then

 

 

They ignored his recommendations lol 

Exactly, wouldn't be the first time lol.

 

8 minutes ago, JM_ said:

its a good sign. It likely also has to do with how the whole group runs, not just the player side.

Until we see some tangible improvements I'll remain skeptical but it's better than nothing.

[JM_]

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

Exactly, wouldn't be the first time lol.

 

Until we see some tangible improvements I'll remain skeptical but it's better than nothing.

yeah me too. Spent 10 years in consulting so I know what can happen to reports. We'll know when we know, hopefully soon.

[wallstreetamigo]

27 minutes ago, JM_ said:

there is, but there's also NTCs that hampered things. "yeah but a good GM would have...." isn't reality. E.g., Hammer held all the cards in a move. Not sure there was really a big influx of picks possible given the amount of player control Gillis handed out.

 

true

not sure this is true, or how you can say this with only two drafts since he left.

Considering Benning has traded both 1st rounders since he left, it’s not likely those drafts are going to amount to being better.

 

Benning drafted McCann, Virtanen, Juolevi, and I believe Boeser in the 1st Round prior to Brackett taking over. EP, Hughes, Podkolzin, with Brackett, then no 1st rounders since. 
 

Not to mention most of those picks later in rounds that Benning has thrown away for nothing in return were under Brackett.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Considering Benning has traded both 1st rounders since he left, it’s not likely those drafts are going to amount to being better.

 

Benning drafted McCann, Virtanen, Juolevi, and I believe Boeser in the 1st Round prior to Brackett taking over. EP, Hughes, Podkolzin, with Brackett, then no 1st rounders since. 
 

Not to mention most of those picks later in rounds that Benning has thrown away for nothing in return were under Brackett.

How many years after drafting a player do we have their rights before we need to sign them?  I expect most guys drafted don't even get a contract?  

[kanucks25]

As for the actual thread topic... well for me there are a lot of tentacles.

 

I don't think you can "blame" Benning for so many of his draft picks being NHL ready right out of the draft or after spending some time in Europe/college/juniors.

 

However, this also includes guys like McCann and Virtanen who were rushed into the NHL; both could have really benefited from more seasoning when it comes to their off-ice maturity and on-ice all-around game.

 

The fact that no skater (only the goalie) has come through our AHL team is probably a red flag as theoretically you'd want your 2nd+ round picks to perpetually backfill the bottom half of the roster (an area that has always been a problem under Benning, especially on forward).

 

Been saying it for a while now: Benning's ability to draft outside the top of the draft has been overrated. So far the only player Benning has drafted outside the top~40 of the draft that has done anything of significance in the NHL is Forsling, and he did none of that for us, all for other teams.

 

Benning's strength in drafting has been in the 20-40 range (Boeser, McCann, Hoglander, Demko, hopefully Klimovich). And this is where Benning's propensity to trade picks instead of accumulate them during the "rebuild" has cost him. I know it may be unfair to cherry-pick these things but just for example: the 33rd overall pick we gave up in that horrid Gudbranson trade could have been someone like Kyrou or Debrincat or Girard or any other one of the handful+ of good players taken in that 2nd round (not to mention giving up on McCann in that trade, as well).

 

Management's "plan" always had more holes than swiss cheese. This is one of them.

 

This is what we get for trying to fill that magical age-gap.

Edited November 22, 2021 by kanucks25

[wallstreetamigo]

14 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

As for the actual thread topic... well for me there are a lot of tentacles.

 

I don't think you can "blame" Benning so for many of his draft picks being NHL ready right out of the draft or after spending some time in Europe/college/juniors.

 

However, this also includes guys like McCann and Virtanen who were rushed into the NHL; both could have really benefited from more seasoning when it comes to their off-ice maturity and on-ice all-around game.

 

The fact that no skater (only the goalie) has come through our AHL team is probably a red flag as theoretically you'd want your 2nd+ round picks to perpetually backfill the bottom half of the roster (an area that has always been a problem under Benning, especially on forward).

 

Been saying it for a while now: Benning's ability to draft outside the top of the draft has been overrated. So far the only player Benning has drafted outside the top~40 of the draft that has done anything of significance in the NHL is Forsling, and he did none of that for us, all for other teams.

 

Benning's strength in drafting has been in the 20-40 range (Boeser, McCann, Hoglander, Demko, hopefully Klimovich). And this is where Benning's propensity to trade picks instead of accumulate them during the "rebuild" has cost him. I know it may be unfair to cherry-pick these things but just for example: the 33rd overall pick we gave up in that horrid Gudbranson trade could have been someone like Kyrou or Debrincat or Girard or any other one of the handful+ of good players taken in that 2nd round (not to mention giving up on McCann in that trade, as well).

 

Management's "plan" always had more holes than swiss cheese. This is one of them.

 

This is what we get for trying to fill that magical age-gap.

This is spot on

[wallstreetamigo]

31 minutes ago, Alflives said:

How many years after drafting a player do we have their rights before we need to sign them?  I expect most guys drafted don't even get a contract?  

Most 1st and 2nd rounders do. 

[JM_]

33 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Considering Benning has traded both 1st rounders since he left, it’s not likely those drafts are going to amount to being better.

 

Benning drafted McCann, Virtanen, Juolevi, and I believe Boeser in the 1st Round prior to Brackett taking over. EP, Hughes, Podkolzin, with Brackett, then no 1st rounders since. 
 

Not to mention most of those picks later in rounds that Benning has thrown away for nothing in return were under Brackett.

I like the Miller trade tho, you'd be very hard pressed to get that at 20th oa. We'll see about Garland-OEL but that looks to be good value for this draft too, considering who went at 9. So As far as value goes for 1st round trades, thats quite a lot of value considering some teams burn 1sts for pure rentals. 

 

Jake, OJ... yeah nowhere to hide on those two.

 

Brackett does have his late round busts too with us tho, he's not perfect. We'll see what he can do in Minni. Is Marco Rossi a home run pick? not yet. I like Wallsted. 

[Ballisticsports.]

Remember many years ago under Benning when we were at the bottom (still are) and he was outbidding every team for veteran help and giving up draft picks (instead of cheaper veterans with good attitudes that would get the same results) in order to shelter our younger guys

Many and myself were against it, thinking the timing was wrong

How did that work out?

[Elias Pettersson]

4 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

At least colorado did not bust in their top 10 picks ya? We busted pretty hard on virtanen and juolevi. Juolevi especially when they decide to draft position rather than the BPA which is clearly superior. Imagine having a MT even if u don't like him he can easily be used to flip for a top 2 defenseman. I can careless if Sakic misses on every single player outside of the 1st rounder as long as he hit on every single 1st rounder. Which is like a good chunk of their rosters top 6 and top 4 

Maybe not in their top 10 but they did bust completely in the 1st round with Conner Bleackley.  

 

2014 Entry	23	1	Conner Bleackley	C	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]
2014 Entry	84	3	Kyle Wood	D	North Bay Battalion [OHL]
2014 Entry	93	4	Nick Magyar	R	Kitchener Rangers [OHL]
2014 Entry	114	4	Alexis Pepin	L	Gatineau Olympiques [QMJHL]
2014 Entry	144	5	Anton Lindholm	D	Skelleftea (Sweden Jrs.)	66	0	5	5	16

 

At least Benning knows how to pick talent at #23...

 

2015 Entry	23	1	Brock Boeser	R	Waterloo Black Hawks [USHL]	269	102	116	218	70
2015 Entry	66	3	Guillaume Brisebois	D	Acadie-Bathurst Titan [QMJHL]	9	0	0	0	0
2015 Entry	114	4	Dmitry Zhukenov	C	Omsk Jrs. (Russia)
2015 Entry	144	5	Carl Neill	D	Sherbrooke Phoenix [QMJHL]
2015 Entry	149	5	Adam Gaudette	C	Cedar Rapids RoughRiders [USHL]	168	23	35	58	71
2015 Entry	174	6	Lukas Jasek	R	Trinec Ocelari HC [Czech]
2015 Entry	210	7	Tate Olson	D	Prince George Cougars [WHL]

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Who said to tank? There is a difference between tanking and trading aging vets at the deadline to accumulate prospects and pucks and let the chips fall where they may rather than hanging onto them and going all out to go on a winning streak at the end of lost seasons. 
 

The Canucks could have picked higher had they actually started rebuilding. They also could have picked the right players early which would have helped too. The only truly consistently good drafting in the Benning era was when Brackett was in charge.

So Brackett was in charge of drafting Virtanen and Juolevi.  Good to know.  I am glad he is gone then...

[Baggins]

12 hours ago, fanfor42 said:

Current Canucks drafted by the team:

 

Demko 2nd rd

Petey 1st rd

Horvat 1st rd

Boeser 1st rd

Hogz 2nd rd

Podz 1st rd

Hughes 1st rd.

 

That is 7 players out of the current roster of 23. That is all the current Canucks who have been drafted since 2013 who are playing for the team now. Horvat of course was drafted by the previous regime. So only 6 have been drafted by Benning.

 

How many current Canucks were developed in the minors by the Canucks Utica/Abby.  Answer Demko. That's it. 1player.

 

No current forward or defensemen on the Canucks roster were developed by the Canucks minor league system.  Not a single one.

 

That's in 8 years. That's with all the players that we drafted and all the years that fans felt so good about the drafting and the pipeline and the possibilities. (Remember all the posts and conversations about how great the future looked?)

 

This is the current reality.

 

Minors have Klim Dipietro Woo Silovs Rathbone McDonaugh and a handful of others.  But not great and by all accounts in the bottom half of NHL prospect pools currently.

 

Drafted and gone include Virtanen McCann Forsling Gaudette Juolevi Gadjovich Tryamkin and a bunch of others.

 

Ok.  Time to assess the current Canuck regime.  

 

Have they done a good job drafting and developing talent? Is their job good enough to be a competitive team? Is their job good enough to be a Cup winner? 

 

Or have they done a lousy job and left the organization in a mess?

 

Thx.

 

 

 

Isn't players drafted outside the top 5 making the jump directly to the NHL a sign of good drafting? McCann, Tryamkin, Boeser, Hughes, Hoglander, and Podkolzin all made a direct jump to the NHL. A sign of good drafting. So are you actually complaing about drafting or just development part? 

 

The Oilers, in the same time frame as Benning, only have Ethan Bear and John Marino drafted outside top 5 playing regularly in the NHL. Neither with the Oilers. The Leafs draffting outside the top 5 have William Nylander, Pierre Engvall and Carl Grundstrom in the NHL. But only Engvall, a 7th rounder, developed in the minors and playing for the Leafs. So not only have they not drafted particularly well outside top 5 they haven't been development beasts either. You have to go back to 2011 to find an Oiler, drafted and AHL developed, that had NHL success with over 400 NHL games.That's center Tobias Rieder drafted in the 4th round with 478 NHL games and 145 points. Not exactly a star. Most of his games with Arizona and now in the SHL. You have to go back to 2007 to find a Leaf, drafted and AHL developed, that had NHL success with over 400 NHL games. Defenseman Carl Gunnersson drafted in the 7th round with 629 NHL games and 138 points. The majority with St Louis. Again, not exactly a star. Those are two teams many held up as supposedly rebuilding the right way tanking and adding picks. 

[wallstreetamigo]

21 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

So Brackett was in charge of drafting Virtanen and Juolevi.  Good to know.  I am glad he is gone then...

No he wasn’t. Those were Benning picks. Not sure who was the official head of amateur scouting then but it wasn’t Brackett yet. 
 

He might have been in his first year for the Juolevi draft. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[Alflives]

Just now, wallstreetamigo said:

No he wasn’t. Those were Benning picks. Not sure who was the official head of amateur scouting then but it wasn’t Brackett yet. 

Delorme maybe?

[mll]

25 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Delorme maybe?

Eric Crawford.  Delorme had been already demoted under Gillis but retained his title.  

[Elias Pettersson]

36 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

No he wasn’t. Those were Benning picks. Not sure who was the official head of amateur scouting then but it wasn’t Brackett yet. 
 

He might have been in his first year for the Juolevi draft. 

He was promoted in 2015 so he was definitely responsible for drafting Juolevi.  That alone should have gotten him fired...

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Considering Benning has traded both 1st rounders since he left, it’s not likely those drafts are going to amount to being better.

 

Benning drafted McCann, Virtanen, Juolevi, and I believe Boeser in the 1st Round prior to Brackett taking over. EP, Hughes, Podkolzin, with Brackett, then no 1st rounders since. 
 

Not to mention most of those picks later in rounds that Benning has thrown away for nothing in return were under Brackett.

You do know that the net loss gain over that period was one less draft pick, and a later one though right?   Nobody ever talks about the picks acquired, a late first, a couple seconds, 3rd, 5ths etc which all added up to one less later round pick prior to the JT Miller trade.  Seems like you might.   

 

Just wanted to state that fact.   After the Miller trade .... well what we have now is pretty much what we should expect.   It's not enough. 

[IBatch]

53 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Isn't players drafted outside the top 5 making the jump directly to the NHL a sign of good drafting? McCann, Tryamkin, Boeser, Hughes, Hoglander, and Podkolzin all made a direct jump to the NHL. A sign of good drafting. So are you actually complaing about drafting or just development part? 

 

The Oilers, in the same time frame as Benning, only have Ethan Bear and John Marino drafted outside top 5 playing regularly in the NHL. Neither with the Oilers. The Leafs draffting outside the top 5 have William Nylander, Pierre Engvall and Carl Grundstrom in the NHL. But only Engvall, a 7th rounder, developed in the minors and playing for the Leafs. So not only have they not drafted particularly well outside top 5 they haven't been development beasts either. You have to go back to 2011 to find an Oiler, drafted and AHL developed, that had NHL success with over 400 NHL games.That's center Tobias Rieder drafted in the 4th round with 478 NHL games and 145 points. Not exactly a star. Most of his games with Arizona and now in the SHL. You have to go back to 2007 to find a Leaf, drafted and AHL developed, that had NHL success with over 400 NHL games. Defenseman Carl Gunnersson drafted in the 7th round with 629 NHL games and 138 points. The majority with St Louis. Again, not exactly a star. Those are two teams many held up as supposedly rebuilding the right way tanking and adding picks. 

You can take 20 other teams and find out that JB is actually done a pretty decent job.   3-4 others are close to us, the rest make us look bad.   But that's not many teams ...