Canucks to be limited to 50% capacity at Rogers Arena until end of January

[iinatcc]

So is this limited Capacity only happening in Canadian cities? Right now I'm not noticing the same restrictions in US based cities for either the NBA or NHL  

[JM_]

13 hours ago, Rabid Rooster said:

They had a choice? I think not. I tried twice but Henry said no.

tried twice for what?

[JM_]

10 hours ago, Xanlet said:

I'm not manipulating anything, In your own words you said "fast tracked"

I also said the word "potato" today. Can't wait to see how you to try to spin that.

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by JM_

[Bure_of_94]

17 hours ago, JM_ said:

I guess it depends on which two we're talking about. 

 

The people I think we need to be hard on are the ones that know the risks they are talking and go out and put that on others. E.g., we know there are people that are using fake vaccine passports. What should we call those folks?

Those seem like 2 very separate issues. Probably 99.99% of those who haven’t had the shot are not using fake vaccine passports. However the ones  that aren’t we should call tax exempt. The ones that are, we should label as crazy and group them with the same people that think that we should inject this into 8 year olds without thorough testing, both of those are the same level of extreme on different sides of the spectrum. 

[Bure_of_94]

21 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Why don't they just mandate a rule that states hospitals don't treat covid-like symptoms for those that are unvaccinated? Problems in the ICU solved, healthcare workers are happy and then it'd also promote taking the vaccine. Those who made the choice not to take it dokt burden healthcare, they live with their own actions and we can get back to life like normal. Why not? 

 

It's easy enough to get a medical exemption or a doctor's note stating why you can't get vaccinated (it's really really rare that a medical issue will prevent you from being able to take the vaccine).

As long as we mandate an accompanying one that says if you have renal, hepatic or cardiac failure of any sort within 5 years of taking any type of medication or injection that wasn’t given a 3 year trial, I think most could get on board with this. I don’t think anyone wants to see our health care system overloaded. Whether it’s ventilators, dialysis or ecgs that are in short supply. 

[JM_]

7 minutes ago, Bure_of_94 said:

Those seem like 2 very separate issues. Probably 99.99% of those who haven’t had the shot are not using fake vaccine passports. However the ones  that aren’t we should call tax exempt. The ones that are, we should label as crazy and group them with the same people that think that we should inject this into 8 year olds without thorough testing, both of those are the same level of extreme on different sides of the spectrum. 

So I don't understand your logic at all. Why should we lump people faking vaccine passports with anyone? isn't their behaviour bad enough on its own?

 

I think this is a good example of how people are being dragged into "sides" on this thing. There isn't a side to faking a passport, its just someone being a crappy person. 

 

I don't understand the tax exempt comment. 

[Bure_of_94]

Just now, JM_ said:

So I don't understand your logic at all. Why should we lump people faking vaccine passports with anyone? isn't their behaviour bad enough on its own?

 

I think this is a good example of how people are being dragged into "sides" on this thing. There isn't a side to faking a passport, its just someone being a crappy person. 

 

I don't understand the tax exempt comment. 

If you’re not allowed into places like community arenas or recreation centres, why should you have to pay for them still? I personally am willing to raise my own taxes, as long as I know it keeps me safe. As should everyone. 

[JM_]

Just now, Bure_of_94 said:

If you’re not allowed into places like community arenas or recreation centres, why should you have to pay for them still? I personally am willing to raise my own taxes, as long as I know it keeps me safe. As should everyone. 

oh I see. 

 

Well, we pay taxes for many things we never use personally. We can't carve up the system into bits and pieces you may or may not use. 

 

Also, we do have laws that allow us to protect public health.

 

So I get the sentiment, but there's not really a good argument here from a legal or taxation pov. 

 

[Bure_of_94]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

oh I see. 

 

Well, we pay taxes for many things we never use personally. We can't carve up the system into bits and pieces you may or may not use. 

 

Also, we do have laws that allow us to protect public health.

 

So I get the sentiment, but there's not really a good argument here from a legal or taxation pov. 

 

Agreed. I’m for the vaccine 100%, but I’m 100% against the vax pass. I don’t like segregation of any kind and I’m sure like everyone here, I was warned by great grandparents and their friends where it leads to. As most of them had seen it before in the 1930s. 

[JM_]

9 minutes ago, Bure_of_94 said:

Agreed. I’m for the vaccine 100%, but I’m 100% against the vax pass. I don’t like segregation of any kind and I’m sure like everyone here, I was warned by great grandparents and their friends where it leads to. As most of them had seen it before in the 1930s. 

Well, what if it isn't segregation, how would you feel about it then?

 

People are allowed to choose if they want the vaccine, so thats not the problem, you have that right. But in our system rights come with privilege, and that means some things are not universal. We don't have full universal freedom of speech, e.g. and we're still one of the best countries in the world. 

 

For vaccines, its a matter of public safety, not excluding people for any other reason like religion, political views, etc. So its not legal discrimination or segregation.

 

I'm open to hearing how preventing a potentially ill person from attending a public place or event meets the definition of segregation. 

 

I think anti-vaxxers love to pull on these kinds of strings to bring people to their "side". They want to use your concerns as an excuse to walk around and make people ill if thats what it takes for them to get their way. I don't believe that you support that way of thinking. 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by JM_

[Bure_of_94]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Well, what if it isn't segregation, how would you feel about it then?

 

People are allowed to choose if they want the vaccine, so thats not the problem, you have that right. But in our system rights come with privilege, and that means some things are not universal. We don't have full universal freedom of speech, e.g. and we're still one of the best countries in the world. 

 

For vaccines, its a matter of public safety, not excluding people for any other reason like religion, political views, etc. So its not legal discrimination or segregation.

 

I'm open to hearing how preventing a potentially ill person from attending a public place or event meets the definition of segregation. 

 

I think anti-vaxxers love to pull on these kinds of strings to bring people to their "side". They want to use your concerns as an excuse to walk around and make people ill if thats what it takes for them to get their way. I don't believe that you support that way of thinking. 

 

I believe that the vaccines work. So I’m not too concerned about what the unvaccinated do. To have a different attitude would indicate that you don’t have 100% faith in what is injected into you works, which then forces the question “why would you take something you don’t believe works? Was it media manipulation or fear?” To not allow people into grocery stores over vaccination status(New Brunswick) is very much segregation. 
 

 As for not allowing ill people into public places I’ve heard people say, well the vaccine doesn’t stop the spread or prevent people from catching it, it just lessens the effects... so is it right to technically allow public places to be open and gathered at? And again it raises the question of our vaccination was to lessen the effects on us, why are we worried about what the vaccinated do? 

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, Bure_of_94 said:

I believe that the vaccines work. So I’m not too concerned about what the unvaccinated do. To have a different attitude would indicate that you don’t have 100% faith in what is injected into you works, which then forces the question “why would you take something you don’t believe works? Was it media manipulation or fear?” To not allow people into grocery stores over vaccination status(New Brunswick) is very much segregation. 

you're free to have whatever opinion you want, but it just doesn't trump public health orders. 

 

As far as grocery stores go, do you really think its OK to have unvaccinated people put seniors at risk when they have to shop? I don't see how someone's choice to not get vaccinated should put others at risk.

 

You're calling it segregation, but the anti-vax people made a free, and to their minds, informed choice. Thats not segregation. 

 

6 minutes ago, Bure_of_94 said:

 

 

 As for not allowing ill people into public places I’ve heard people say, well the vaccine doesn’t stop the spread or prevent people from catching it, it just lessens the effects... so is it right to technically allow public places to be open and gathered at? And again it raises the question of our vaccination was to lessen the effects on us, why are we worried about what the vaccinated do? 

Q: do you think we have any duty to protect vulnerable people in our society? 

 

Vulnerable people are at greater risk. For most of us the vaccine will be enough, but not everyone.  The unvaccinated can still cause a lot of harm even with the vaccine. 

 

Unvaccinated by choice folks have made the decision to take the risk. Can you explain why I should share in their choice?

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by JM_

[higgyfan]

32 minutes ago, Bure_of_94 said:

If you’re not allowed into places like community arenas or recreation centres, why should you have to pay for them still? I personally am willing to raise my own taxes, as long as I know it keeps me safe. As should everyone. 

People that don't have children still pay taxes for the schools they won't be using. 

 

 

[higgyfan]

12 minutes ago, Bure_of_94 said:

 As for not allowing ill people into public places I’ve heard people say, well the vaccine doesn’t stop the spread or prevent people from catching it, it just lessens the effects... so is it right to technically allow public places to be open and gathered at? And again it raises the question of our vaccination was to lessen the effects on us, why are we worried about what the vaccinated do? 

The people that have to be protected the most are the unvaccinated, older folks and others with compromised health conditions.  These are the people that will be the balk of the hospitalized if they get infected.

 

Just two weeks ago, our active covid cases and rate of new positive test were looking great.  With the onset of Omicron (along with the lack of research) new restrictions have been imposed to make public gatherings smaller.

Hopefully, this new variant will be milder than Delta and we won't have to endure much stricter restrictions.

[MikeyD]

13 hours ago, jovocop55 said:

But we can’t do that here because of human rights.  like if a guy murder 40 people and he was shot by the police.   Ambulance and hospital will need to treat the shooter no matter what. 

I'm not saying deny the entirety of healthcare for these people, just help in relation to covid. Hospitals already do it all of the time. Certain protocols are in place to alleviate cost and resources on the system in certain patient situations. This would be no different, just a manipulation to that. 

[MikeyD]

1 hour ago, Bure_of_94 said:

As long as we mandate an accompanying one that says if you have renal, hepatic or cardiac failure of any sort within 5 years of taking any type of medication or injection that wasn’t given a 3 year trial, I think most could get on board with this. I don’t think anyone wants to see our health care system overloaded. Whether it’s ventilators, dialysis or ecgs that are in short supply. 

There's already mandates on ordering for certain tests under certain conditions anyways, just for your information. 

[higgyfan]

12 hours ago, iinatcc said:

So is this limited Capacity only happening in Canadian cities? Right now I'm not noticing the same restrictions in US based cities for either the NBA or NHL  

The US is Covid stupid.  Their numbers are over +100,000 daily already and that's without Omicron taking over.  Their vaccination rate is very low (62%) and way less in the southern states. Looks like the perfect storm.

One can only speculate what this will look like in a month. They better be praying that Omicron is a mild form of Delta.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

you're free to have whatever opinion you want, but it just doesn't trump public health orders. 

 

As far as grocery stores go, do you really think its OK to have unvaccinated people put seniors at risk when they have to shop? I don't see how someone's choice to not get vaccinated should put others at risk.

 

You're calling it segregation, but the anti-vax people made a free, and to their minds, informed choice. Thats not segregation. 

 

Q: do you think we have any duty to protect vulnerable people in our society? 

 

Vulnerable people are at greater risk. For most of us the vaccine will be enough, but not everyone.  The unvaccinated can still cause a lot of harm even with the vaccine. 

 

Unvaccinated by choice folks have made the decision to take the risk. Can you explain why I should share in their choice?

 

 

 

I think vaccines just work a lot better in kids than older people, don’t they?  @DrJockitch

[DrJockitch]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I think vaccines just work a lot better in kids than older people, don’t they?  @DrJockitch

In general yes and specifically in the case of COVID, yes.

There are a few things there with COVID, kids get exposed to so many cold viruses and 30% of cold viruses are coronaviruses so they have partial immunity to begin with, that is why we think that SARS, MERS and COVID-19 didn't really effect kids in the same way.  I was actually quite curious to see if the almost two years of social distancing might change this.

Most breakthrough infections, where immunized people were testing positive and getting sick (prior to Omicron) were in people who were elderly or otherwise immunocompromised.

I tried to stress this in a different thread but the person wasn't getting it, there is still a lot of value to the boosters at preventing transmission of Omicron but the wave is too early and the boosters are likely too late for most.  It still will reduce transmission if you are immunized, just not to the degree it did with OG-COVID or Delta.  Omicron has been shown in some studies to be up to 70X more transmissible and the vaccines when boosted appear to be more like 70% effective vs 95% in in vitro studies.

When something is 25% less effective against something that is 70X more transmissible, numbers are still going to surge even though the vaccine is being of great benefit to reduce transmission still.

Should not just depend on your immunity though, still need masking and maybe stepped up masking to N95 where plausible and social distancing.

If i can just make a comment on the Omicron is not as bad comments i see everywhere.

If OG COVID has a 1% death rate and Omicron is only 0.2% (Made up numbers for illustration, detailed numbers are not known), which is worse?

The answer is if you have it, OG-COVID (and especially Delta).  If you are in a population and can make considerations out of your central locus, knowing the degree of increased transmission, Omicron is worse.

[RU SERIOUS]

1 hour ago, higgyfan said:

The US is Covid stupid.  Their numbers are over +100,000 daily already and that's without Omicron taking over.  Their vaccination rate is very low (62%) and way less in the southern states. Looks like the perfect storm.

One can only speculate what this will look like in a month. They better be praying that Omicron is a mild form of Delta.

You could have just stopped at "The US is Stupid".    No need to define how "stupid" people get the deeper south you go in their country , as most "NORMAL" people know that allready!  Just saying....