Trading Elite Players in their Prime -- Are we expecting too much?

[-Moose]

Miller is far from elite. He's a good 1st line forward with an amazing contract for what he brings.

That is why he is worth so much

[filthycanuck]

On 2/7/2022 at 12:03 PM, Shayster007 said:

You start this entire post with a statement that personally, and statically doesn't seem correct to me. JT Miller statically entered his prime in 2019, his numbers seem to show that pretty clearly in my opinion. Statically, research over the NHL as a whole also say that a forward hits their scoring prime around 27-28. Again, by that regards he isn't just entering it, he's right in the middle of it. He likely has a few years left of prime JT Miller. But his next contract is due next summer, where I think a realistic assumption he has anywhere between 1-3 years of prime left, and his well deserved contract may have him being over payed for a number of years after that.

 

And to address something you said a few posts up. Trading Miller isn't giving up on this group. If anything, trading Miller is showing faith in the core of Petey, Hughes, and Horvat. We are taking short term pain to invest in pieces to support that young core instead of possibly over extending on a player that simply doesn't line up with our time line. JT was traded for by Benning, the same guy who pushed all his chips in for this year with the OEL trade. The timeline has changed, and we need to make the best move to adjust to that.

 

If no one is offering a kings ransom this year for Miller I hope we keep him and see how things play out this year. But if the Canucks can set themselves up for the future with a team overpaying for a couple years of Miller, we have to seriously consider that.

That was the real cost of the OEL trade, it should already have been inevitable that one or two of Miller, Boeser, Hughes, EP40, Horvat would be gone in the near future. OEL has been good for us, but it was at the wrong time to where this team is. Had the OEL trade happened in the season right after the bubble to supplement the same team WITH Toffoli? Sure I can get on board with that, but clearly the mess of last season showed the team wasn't as good as we thought they were.

[filthycanuck]

13 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

It seemed like there were only about 10 Canucks games on TV back in the old days.  You mostly had to wait for when they were Hockey Night in Canada.  They would get bumped for Leafs games by CBC even for Vancouver audiences sometimes.  There were only a handful of local network Canuck game TV broadcasts per season.  Everybody just got used to listening to most of the games on the radio and didn't question it.  It didn't seem like they were missing anything...and they weren't really, we are just spoiled now.  It was just a bonus if a game was on TV.  Jim Robson and Tom Larscheid really brought the games to life.  I still don't really care today if a game is HD or not.

 

For stats, the Sun or the Province would run the full league team by team scoring once per week, on Saturday or something.  Other than that, it was just check the newspaper and they would list the current top ten scorers in the league as of that day.

 

In the early 90s there was a local sports recap show every night called Sports Page.  It's where all of Don Taylor, Dave Randorf, John Shorthouse and several others got their start.  They were really young guys back then and it's a show model that doesn't really exist anymore, where some local upstarts become the premier source for a big city's sports audience.  The hosts all grew playoff beards for the 94 run...they also had the best music for their sports highlights.  I don't know how they even afforded the licensing for the music...or if they even bothered asking.

 

There was Sports Talk or whatever the show was with Dan Russell on the radio that ran for almost 30 years.  It was the call in show before there ever were dedicated sports stations like Team 1040 and 1410, a model which itself has now been moved past or failed / become obsolete.  The stations that played sports and music back in the day all don't exist anymore.  1040 actually used to be the #1 music station in the city.  650 used to be the oldies music station.  Now 1040 has since been reincarnated and failed as a sports station, and 650 is the sports station...for now anyway, as this seems to go through upheaval as often as NHL labor disputes.

 

Edit:  I just noticed that you also asked how fans connected back then...  They didn't really.  You just had people that you already knew who were into hockey and you followed the game with them.  There wasn't really any sort of meeting other fans by virtue of being fans.  You would just talk hockey with the people you played hockey with, worked with or went to school with...at least those who cared about hockey.  But that was most people.

 

 

 

You boomer! hahah jk, love the post! Was it that bad in the 80's for televised games ( I wasn't living in Canada yet so i didn't know anything about hockey until the late 80s)

 

I was still in elementary school when sportspage was on. Way past my bedtime at 11pm or was it 11:30? when sportspage was on and I'd tune in to Arsenio Hall show. Remember Donny Taylor's schtick?

 

"Heres Ronning skating down the middle, wearing Gerry Minor's old number 7" He would reference the same jersey number with the most obscure player hahahahha

 

"Murzyn with a shot from the point, in Murznian fashion, puts it top shelf where dad keeps the playboys"

 

One of the more memorable highlights of sportspage was when Randorf was on and they had his screen tag as Bud Bundy for like half the show LOL

 

In the 90's I think we got like 2 games per 1 or 2 weeks, Canucks games was almost must see tv since most were on the radio. I remember being huddled around the radio with my family listening to the game. People tuned in to sportspage because the non televised games, they were the only place where you can see highlights of the game

[filthycanuck]

9 hours ago, HKSR said:

Oh man, I totally forgot about the publishing of team by team scoring stats in the newspapers!  I loved looking through all that.  I used to actually know every single player in the league and what team they were on.  I just can't keep up with 32 teams anymore.  Way too many players.

 

But yeah, those newspaper published stats were THE way to pick your players for pools.  Loved it.

Picking up the province in the morning was the best way to start the day

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

You boomer! hahah jk, love the post! Was it that bad in the 80's for televised games ( I wasn't living in Canada yet so i didn't know anything about hockey until the late 80s)

 

I was still in elementary school when sportspage was on. Way past my bedtime at 11pm or was it 11:30? when sportspage was on and I'd tune in to Arsenio Hall show. Remember Donny Taylor's schtick?

 

"Heres Ronning skating down the middle, wearing Gerry Minor's old number 7" He would reference the same jersey number with the most obscure player hahahahha

 

"Murzyn with a shot from the point, in Murznian fashion, puts it top shelf where dad keeps the playboys"

 

One of the more memorable highlights of sportspage was when Randorf was on and they had his screen tag as Bud Bundy for like half the show LOL

 

In the 90's I think we got like 2 games per 1 or 2 weeks, Canucks games was almost must see tv since most were on the radio. I remember being huddled around the radio with my family listening to the game. People tuned in to sportspage because the non televised games, they were the only place where you can see highlights of the game

 

It's hard to remember how many games were available on TV one way or another in any given year.  That's why I just wrote down what it felt like.  The network deals changed and there was still the mentality back then that if the games were on TV then fans wouldn't buy tickets to attend the rink.  As opposed to today where it's televise it all, get the biggest TV deal possible, cover the boards with ads, put a CGI ad over the crowd and on the glass behind the net, name the rink after a company and name every power play, penalty kill and face off after another company.  They were still figuring out the science of scraping out every cent from fans and advertisers.

 

Yeah the Sports Page comedy was good stuff.  They were young and hungry, like David Letterman when he had to keep viewers watching when they were already exhausted after the Johnny Carson show.  Or the Kids in the Hall, or the SCTV crew on the way up before they all became big movie stars.

[Kevin Biestra]

@IBatch

 

Yo I remembered another batch of old dogs from the golden age traded in their primes (on the previous page).  Remember any of those guys?

 

[IBatch]

On 2/11/2022 at 2:03 PM, Kevin Biestra said:

A few more trades from the olden days that came to mind...

 

Ron Sedlbauer for Dave Logan and Harold Philippoff.  Sedlbauer was 25 and partway through the season after becoming the first 40 goal scorer in Canucks history.  The thing is, he was done a year later, got sent to the minors and never came back, but that was still immediately after a 20 goal season.  A trade that just didn't seem to be good for any of the teams or players.

 

The Canucks traded 25 year old Curt Fraser in his prime and shortly after the 1982 run for 19 year old prospect Tony Tanti, who promptly joined the Canucks and became one of very few players in NHL history to have five straight seasons with 39 goals or more.

 

Petri Skriko was 28 when the Canucks moved on from him after being a top scorer for the team throughout the 80s.  They got back a 2nd round pick that was used to select Mike Peca.

 

Barry Pederson was also 28 when the Canucks traded him away after a similar run to Skriko.  He was a very good player for the Canucks, just maligned for not being Cam Neely.  Tony Tanti was also given away in this trade (age 26).  The Canucks got back Andrew McBain and Dan Quinn, two good players on the back nine of their careers.  Dan Quinn was a notable piece in the trade to then acquire Ronning, Courtnall and Momesso.  All in all that's two top scorers to give away in Tanti and Pederson and doesn't seem like a very good deal...but both were done in the league within a couple years and it ended up indirectly providing half of the forward core for the 94 run.  I think the team was just trying to change for the sake of change and start a new thing under Linden.  Kind of like when the Canucks didn't re-sign Markus Naslund at the end even though he was willing to play good hockey for a moderately low salary.

 

Glen Hanlon was a 23 year old very good goalie for the Canucks, had started 57 games the previous year, been 10th in All Star voting, when he lost the battle for starter with Richard Brodeur in 1981.  It was kind of like Luongo / Schneider or Markstrom / Demko where there was a starter more than good enough that replacement wasn't necessary...yet something better had emerged.  Hanlon was traded for Tony Currie (solid 20 goal scorer), Rick Heinz (a functional backup), Jim Nill and a 4th round pick.  Currie and Nill were both part of the 1982 Cup run.  It was a case where the Canucks just had two starter level goalies and at least got some decent stuff for one of them while downgrading to a good enough backup.  Hanlon was probably worth more when it's all looked at it in retrospect...he had a very good career, played about 10 more years and got Vezina votes in two of them.  Hanlon was also a very good playoff goalie, just stuck on the Rangers and Red Wings every time he was in them so they never got past round two.  The Canucks later traded Jim Nill for an aging but still decent Peter McNab, which was a pretty good deal.

 

Brian Bradley (represented the Canucks at the all star game) was 26 when he was traded for Tom Kurvers.  Tom Kurvers was one of the respectable B-tier offensive defensemen of the time like Doug Crossman or Reed Larson.  Kurvers was almost immediately traded to acquire Dave Babych.

 

I guess what's worth noting is that the Canucks managed to recoup notable assets for at least half of their entire 1980s core.  Richard Brodeur, Petri Skriko, Barry Pederson, Garth Butcher, Curt Fraser.  The only ones that retired or whose contracts ended and went elsewhere or were traded for peanuts that I can think of offhand are Stan Smyl (age), Darcy Rota (injuries), Harold Snepsts (free agent), Thomas Gradin (free agent), Tiger Williams and Doug Lidster (not really a justifiable throw in for a trade and then beat the Canucks as a Ranger in the 94 final).

 

With Tiger Williams, we traded him for a guy that never played a game for us.  But I guess it could have been worse.  The next two times he was traded before he retired it was once for cash and once literally for "unknown compensation."

 

Richard Brodeur was traded near the end of his final season for Steve Weeks.  Worked out pretty well for both teams I guess.  Brodeur suited up in the playoffs that year for the Whalers and had one last underdog hurrah stealing them a win against the Montreal Canadiens (when he was supposed to just be the backup and ride off into the sunset).  Meanwhile Steve Weeks (also a seasoned veteran though not as old) suited up for the Canucks for a bit of the 1989 series against Calgary and played well (won a game), and that was after probably having the greatest season ever by a Canucks backup right up until Corey Schneider's Jennings Trophy year.  Weeks actually got votes for the post-season All Star team as the Canucks backup that season.

 

 

 

This is great - thanks Biestra!  Your command and understanding of that era is just the best.   The same enthusiasm for it was how i got into the Canucks, ashamed to say i was an Oilers fan first, like a lot of kids what Wayne Gretzky was doing to the league was just too tough to resist lol.   89 was my trial by fire year living with Grandma and my Uncle they didn't put up with much nonsense like that.    Saw your other posts about how fans were back then and interacted.   I still have my sticker books from the early 80's..1981-82, 82-83...paid the extra couple bucks to get one of them filled right up and trading the cards/stickers was part of the interaction.    By 89 BCTV televised games too - so was lucky enough to get one or two games a week (between them and CBC -WITH tinfoil and rabbit ears on a 22 inch TV from maybe 1975)...and it was a religious experience.   I'd really like to see the V back at some point too.   Those were some very tough teams.   

 

Radio also was part of it for sure ... they were so good watching the TV with volume off and the radio broadcast was something to consider back in the early 90's.    Every game was on the radio which...even now i still do that - have done it probably six times this year when i'm blacked out (SN - pay for all the channels but don't get the games back East the same way ...and don't even mind one bit!)...was 1040 or 600 before that .... i'd recommend it to any fan.  

 

Also would add that the Times Colonist did daily reports in their sports section (Victoria) way to keep track of the stats for hockey pools and most of the interaction back then - well almost all of it, was done in person with your buddies and family members.   Was fortunate enough to get insight into what it was like to play against guys like Cam Neely and Wendel Clark before the NHL - and what it was like to have scouts come see your games with two of my pals back then.   Exciting stuff for sure.    Hockey was played differently back then ... but one thing that hasn't changed - is that it still connects all of us fans just in different ways.   I'm truly grateful for the CDC in that respect. 

[Kevin Biestra]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

This is great - thanks Biestra!  Your command and understanding of that era is just the best.   The same enthusiasm for it was how i got into the Canucks, ashamed to say i was an Oilers fan first, like a lot of kids what Wayne Gretzky was doing to the league was just too tough to resist lol.   89 was my trial by fire year living with Grandma and my Uncle they didn't put up with much nonsense like that.    Saw your other posts about how fans were back then and interacted.   I still have my sticker books from the early 80's..1981-82, 82-83...paid the extra couple bucks to get one of them filled right up and trading the cards/stickers was part of the interaction.    By 89 BCTV televised games too - so was lucky enough to get one or two games a week (between them and CBC -WITH tinfoil and rabbit ears on a 22 inch TV from maybe 1975)...and it was a religious experience.   I'd really like to see the V back at some point too.   Those were some very tough teams.   

 

Radio also was part of it for sure ... they were so good watching the TV with volume off and the radio broadcast was something to consider back in the early 90's.    Every game was on the radio which...even now i still do that - have done it probably six times this year when i'm blacked out (SN - pay for all the channels but don't get the games back East the same way ...and don't even mind one bit!)...was 1040 or 600 before that .... i'd recommend it to any fan.  

 

Also would add that the Times Colonist did daily reports in their sports section (Victoria) way to keep track of the stats for hockey pools and most of the interaction back then - well almost all of it, was done in person with your buddies and family members.   Was fortunate enough to get insight into what it was like to play against guys like Cam Neely and Wendel Clark before the NHL - and what it was like to have scouts come see your games with two of my pals back then.   Exciting stuff for sure.    Hockey was played differently back then ... but one thing that hasn't changed - is that it still connects all of us fans just in different ways.   I'm truly grateful for the CDC in that respect. 

 

Yeah I'm embarrassed to say I actually liked Messier better than Gretzky on the Oilers.  Liked him less as a Ranger and even less as a Canuck.  Gretzky was fantastic to watch but Coffey was actually my favorite Oiler and probably my favorite player in the league to actually watch play the game.  I just grew to admire and respect Gretzky more with each year, especially from around the 93 playoffs onward.  I haven't been legitimately and impactfully saddened to see many athletes retire, but Gretzky was one of them.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah I'm embarrassed to say I actually liked Messier better than Gretzky on the Oilers.  Liked him less as a Ranger and even less as a Canuck.  Gretzky was fantastic to watch but Coffey was actually my favorite Oiler and probably my favorite player in the league to actually watch play the game.  I just grew to admire and respect Gretzky more with each year, especially from around the 93 playoffs onward.  I haven't been legitimately and impactfully saddened to see many athletes retire, but Gretzky was one of them.

Coffey was my favourite Oiler ... just such fun to watch skate .... effortless and only player i've seen before or since who could somehow get to full speed with barely moving his feet - and then somehow glide even faster.    Messier i also liked even before the show down .... of course that changed.   Watched every game of their last cup - Ranford deserved the recognition, amazing performance.    Yes i was hurt when rumours were he was coming and didn't arrive (Gretzky)...Messier was still putting up massive points in the dead puck era just before he signed - had mixed feelings about that and met him on the ferry.   Didn't look like i'd expected nobody else even recognized him lol just me.   In some trench coat trying with a silly hat, and well wasn't so big not like i thought he'd be anyways... That part was really tough for me (Messier era) meeting your idols as a kid but as a young adult became the enemy.   His silly grin kind of won me over a little and felt like a kid again so instead of harassing him (which part of me wanted to do), just grinned back and didn't bother him.    Going right back to a kid i was sure happy to get Messier's sticker.    For whatever reason (Official NHL edition - had two pages for every team)   Messier was listed birthplace was Nottingham England .... so not only was he that he was also Robin Hood cool for me as 8-9 year old ... think his brother was the one actually born there.    Interesting tid-bit because his Dad was also a semi-pro player and they lived there for awhile. 

 

Edit:  I think it was Marks brother who was actually born there ... NHL.com writers and THNs still to this day make mistakes .. and it's a lot easier to fact check now ...

Edited February 12, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

9 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Coffey was my favourite Oiler ... just such fun to watch skate .... effortless and only player i've seen before or since who could somehow get to full speed with barely moving his feet - and then somehow glide even faster.    Messier i also liked even before the show down .... of course that changed.   Watched every game of their last cup - Ranford deserved the recognition, amazing performance.    Yes i was hurt when rumours were he was coming and didn't arrive (Gretzky)...Messier was still putting up massive points in the dead puck era just before he signed - had mixed feelings about that and met him on the ferry.   Didn't look like i'd expected nobody else even recognized him lol just me.   In some trench coat trying with a silly hat, and well wasn't so big not like i thought he'd be anyways... That part was really tough for me (Messier era) meeting your idols as a kid but as a young adult became the enemy.   His silly grin kind of won me over a little and felt like a kid again so instead of harassing him (which part of me wanted to do), just grinned back and didn't bother him.    Going right back to a kid i was sure happy to get Messier's sticker.    For whatever reason (Official NHL edition - had two pages for every team)   Messier was listed birthplace was Nottingham England .... so not only was he that he was also Robin Hood cool for me as 8-9 year old ... think his brother was the one actually born there.    Interesting tid-bit because his Dad was also a semi-pro player and they lived there for awhile. 

 

 

Yeah people talked crap about Coffey's defense but it was underrated.  Not many guys could stop the shot and the pass on a two-on-one this effortlessly, then skate the puck down, try to go through four players packed into a 5x5 foot spot on the ice and not look like a fool doing so.

 

 

 

 

[Boudrias]

I agree with both of you guys. Watching Coffey skate was the best of the Oilers. OK, Wayne had his moments to. 

 

I was watching the Canucks from the opening faceoff in '70. I was first year college and there were a bunch of us who watched games when they were on TV and then I listened to the games on radio with Robson. Some of those games went pretty late into the night and classes were tough the next day. Between listening to the Canucks, playing intermural hockey, watching the Junior and Senior Trail Smoke Eaters the college suffered. By '72 I was out of school and running my own business. 

Great memories.  

 

Forgot to add that early Savard in Montreal was incredible. Not fast like Coffey but he had great moves. The Savardian spinorama was a real deal. He was never the same after his leg was broken. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Boudrias

[Kevin Biestra]

10 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

I agree with both of you guys. Watching Coffey skate was the best of the Oilers. OK, Wayne had his moments to. 

 

I was watching the Canucks from the opening faceoff in '70. I was first year college and there were a bunch of us who watched games when they were on TV and then I listened to the games on radio with Robson. Some of those games went pretty late into the night and classes were tough the next day. Between listening to the Canucks, playing intermural hockey, watching the Junior and Senior Trail Smoke Eaters the college suffered. By '72 I was out of school and running my own business. 

Great memories.  

 

Did you have any thoughts at the time when they traded Dale Tallon and then Jocelyn Guevremont in quick succession?  Tallon had broken Bobby Orr's record for points by a rookie defenseman, and then Guevremont would have had that record himself if not for Tallon.  In short order the Canucks had divested themselves of what looked like it could have been really something on the back end.  Neither went on to be a Norris winner but they did both score 50 points again for their new teams.

 

And everyone remembers Coffey for his speed - he was darn fast - but I remember him as much for his grace.  Mike Gartner was just as fast but Coffey was almost like...I don't know, 9 parts hockey and one part figure skating while racking up the points.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

17 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

 

Yeah people talked crap about Coffey's defense but it was underrated.  Not many guys could stop the shot and the pass on a two-on-one this effortlessly, then skate the puck down, try to go through four players packed into a 5x5 foot spot on the ice and not look like a fool doing so.

 

 

 

 

Best hockey tournament all-time 87 Canada cup ... incredible teams both of them.  

Edited February 12, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

31 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 

Best hockey tournament all-time 87 Canada cup ... incredible teams both of them.  

 

Everything from 72 to 87 (and maybe 91 too) was fantastic hockey.  Not a bad tournament among them.  It has been very good hockey since but starting with that World Cup of Hockey in the 90s it was never quite the same.

 

Everything was kind of never quite the same after the 94-95 lockout.

 

Remember the Gretzky's All Stars going on tour like the Harlem Globetrotters while the labor dispute was happening?

 

That's when the dead puck era started too.  92-93 was an insane season...21 players got 100 points, almost all in the HOF now.  Nine 50 goal scorers (eight in the HOF).  That was great hockey to watch.

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[Timråfan]

52 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 

Best hockey tournament all-time 87 Canada cup ... incredible teams both of them.  

I say Sweden had a great team with two players from Timrå,  Hasek in the Chechs goal, Mylles in Finland, Fuhr, ... Almost all the top teams goalies were celebrites back then. 

Sweden won WC so I had two great tournaments  with Our goalie Pekka Lindmark saving like a maniac. 

If we had won against the US in CC we would have met Canada so I was a bit sad back then. 

 

 

 

[Kevin Biestra]

6 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

I say Sweden had a great team with two players from Timrå,  Hasek in the Chechs goal, Mylles in Finland, Fuhr, ... Almost all the top teams goalies were celebrites back then. 

Sweden won WC so I had two great tournaments  with Our goalie Pekka Lindmark saving like a maniac. 

If we had won against the US in CC we would have met Canada so I was a bit sad back then.

 

I was a little surprised at how Myllys had no success in the NHL when he came over.  Kind of like the Krutov of goalies.  He had literally the worst numbers I've ever seen over an NHL career for a goalie.  Four seasons, all with a GAA over 5.00.

[Timråfan]

11 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I was a little surprised at how Myllys had no success in the NHL when he came over.  Kind of like the Krutov of goalies.  He had literally the worst numbers I've ever seen over an NHL career for a goalie.  Four seasons, all with a GAA over 5.00.

The fins has always been good at defence. 
So they probably knew how to play sacrificing long before NHL. 

[Kevin Biestra]

1 minute ago, Timråfan said:

The fins has always been good at defence. 
So they probably knew how to play sacrificing long before NHL. 

 

Finland has always had good goaltending.  Noora Raty is considered the Tretiak of women by some.  The Minnesota North Stars really bet heavy on Finnish goalies around the late 80s / early 90s.  They had Jarrmo Myllys and Kari Takko.  Takko fared slightly better than Myllys stats wise but both ended up being more Krutov than Larionov.

[Timråfan]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Finland has always had good goaltending.  Noora Raty is considered the Tretiak of women by some.  The Minnesota North Stars really bet heavy on Finnish goalies around the late 80s / early 90s.  They had Jarrmo Myllys and Kari Takko.  Takko fared slightly better than Myllys stats wise but both ended up being more Krutov than Larionov.

one surprise from that time is how great Hasek would be. 
I thought Pekka Lindmark was amasing back then but Hasek became a monster.

[Kevin Biestra]

3 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

one surprise from that time is how great Hasek would be. 
I thought Pekka Lindmark was amasing back then but Hasek became a monster.

 

Yeah, in 1991 the Blackhawks had Ed Belfour, Dominik Hasek and Jim Waite.  Probably the three best goaltending rookies / prospects in the NHL all on the same team.