Trading Elite Players in their Prime -- Are we expecting too much?

[canuckleheads fan]

I don't know why everybody's in such a hurry to trade Miller.  I trust Bieksa when he said that guys like Miller don't come along very often, he's a great combination of size, skill, compete and leadership.  He's like the team's Swiss Army knife, he plays PP1, PK, and C1 minutes.  There is no real need to trade him, he's under a very team friendly contract next year too, so don't be in a hurry.  Teams know that Jim's taking offers, but unless the offer is so one-sided from a team desperate to shore up the middle for a cup run that they'll give us EXACTLY what we want (I'd say a #1, a top prospect, and a current top 9 forward with upside potential, then no.  He can be moved at the draft or he can be moved next year if we have to.  The guys they have to move are Boeser while he still has some value before his qualifying offer, Halak and maybe Hamonic now that the last two seem to be superfluous.

Edited February 10, 2022 by canuckleheads fan

[CaptainLinden16]

3 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

I don't know why everybody's in such a hurry to trade Miller.  I trust Bieksa when he said that guys like Miller don't come along very often, he's a great combination of size, skill, compete and leadership.  He's like the team's Swiss Army knife, he plays PP1, PK, and C1 minutes.  There is no real need to trade him, he's under a very team friendly contract next year too, so don't be in a hurry.  Teams know that Jim's taking offers, but unless the offer is so one-sided from a team desperate to shore up the middle for a cup run that they'll give us EXACTLY what we want (I'd say a #1, a top prospect, and a current top 9 forward with upside potential, then no.  He can be moved at the draft or he can be moved next year if we have to.  The guys they have to move are Boesser while he still has some value before his qualifying offer, Halak and maybe Hamonic now that the last two seem to be superfluous.

The biggest problem with moving Miller is that 1C are very rare, and you can't win without them.  There are probably less than 15 real ones in the NHL.  Miller is one.  There is no guarantee that a prospect will develop into that role.  Yes you can get good picks and prospects, but as far as building a successful team this would be a massive setback.

[canuckleheads fan]

7 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

What's up playboy, I saw the bat signal.  Man the trade of Vaive and Derlago for Tiger Williams (and Jerry Butler) was a big one, but Vaive and Derlago were one year from hitting their prime and their stride.  Got us to the 1982 final but Vaive soon had three 50 goal seasons in a row for Toronto and we still never had one in our history until Bure.  Derlago had 30-40 goals in four out of five straight years in Toronto.  Good example of a trade working out for both sides, but we really gave up some quality...

 

Patrik Sundstrom for Kirk McLean and Greg Adams was a big one.  Sundstrom was still a great player and shortly thereafter had probably the best playoff performance in Devils history until Martin Brodeur came along.

 

Don Lever for Ivan Boldirev and Darcy Rota.  Lever would be like trading Horvat now, maybe a bigger loss, but the two guys we got were huge in 82 and Rota for the whole first half of the 80s.

 

Dale Tallon for Gary Smith...  Tallon wasn't far removed from setting the NHL record for points by a rookie defenseman.  Gary Smith almost won the Hart Trophy for us.

 

Dennis Ververgaert for Kevin McCarthy.  One of our top scorers for a future captain and one of the team's best defensemen ever.

 

We traded a 25 year old 50 point scoring d-man in Rick Lanz for Jim Benning.  I guess it seems kind of like a lateral move because I forget Benning was about the same thing before he came to the Canucks and stopped scoring, but Benning did win Canucks d-man of the year once and Lanz was pretty much finished at 27.

 

Jocelyn Guevremont for Gerry Meehan and Mike Robitaille.  Gave up a 23 year old 50 point scoring defenseman...no idea why.  Guevremont scored 50 points for Buffalo as well and helped them to the cup final.

 

I know this is off topic, but seeing these old names brings back some great memories.  I used to go to a hockey school on Vancouver Island in my youth.  One year Don Lever was one of the big name instructors.  What a great guy!  I recall being totally wowed meeting my hero Pete Mahovlich, and when Phil Russell commended my balance skating backwards, I moved from center to defense the next season.

[Kevin Biestra]

14 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

I know this is off topic, but seeing these old names brings back some great memories.  I used to go to a hockey school on Vancouver Island in my youth.  One year Don Lever was one of the big name instructors.  What a great guy!  I recall being totally wowed meeting my hero Pete Mahovlich, and when Phil Russell commended my balance skating backwards, I moved from center to defense the next season.

 

There was good reason to be wowed.  I have Pete as one of the guys really overlooked by the Hall of Fame committee.  Four Cups, two 100 point seasons (topped out at 117), +72 one season, 82 assists one season.  Really was just lacking in total career numbers but also not out of place with guys like Gillies in that regard.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[canuckleheads fan]

2 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

There was good reason to be wowed.  I have Pete as one of the guys really overlooked by the Hall of Fame committee.  Four Cups, two 100 point seasons (topped out at 117), +72 one season, 82 assists one season.  Really was just lacking in total career numbers but really not out of place with guys like Gillies in that regard.

It's a shame he had bad knees, but he was a great complimentary center for the Flower and Shutt, like your comparison, the Clark Gillies on that line.  He suffered from the career long comparison to his HOF brother Frank, but Pete was a guy who made whatever team he was on better.

[Kevin Biestra]

1 minute ago, canuckleheads fan said:

It's a shame he had bad knees, but he was a great complimentary center for the Flower and Shutt, like your comparison, the Clark Gillies on that line.  He suffered from the career long comparison to his HOF brother Frank, but Pete was a guy who made whatever team he was on better.

Pete Mahovlich and Dennis Hull are the two guys who really suffered by just having a super awesome brother.  They were great players, as opposed to serviceable NHLers like Brett Lindros, Sean Pronger, Scott Thornton, Dave Dryden, etc...

[canuckleheads fan]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

Pete Mahovlich and Dennis Hull are the two guys who really suffered by just having a super awesome brother.  They were great players, as opposed to serviceable NHLers like Brett Lindros, Sean Pronger, Scott Thornton, Dave Dryden, etc...

That's funny, Dave Dryden was also at that hockey school I attended one year.

Edited February 10, 2022 by canuckleheads fan

[Kevin Biestra]

7 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

That's funny, Dave Dryden was also at that hockey school I attended on year.

 

Dave was actually quite good.  He didn't really belong with those other brothers.  He just never really got a shot as a starter in the NHL but was legitimately great in the WHA, especially in the 78-79 season.

 

Dennis Hull says when he goes to his hometown there's a sign that says Home of Bobby and Dennis Hull.  He writes "and Dennis" back onto the sign every time he drives by.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[Timråfan]

2 hours ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

The biggest problem with moving Miller is that 1C are very rare, and you can't win without them.  There are probably less than 15 real ones in the NHL.  Miller is one.  There is no guarantee that a prospect will develop into that role.  Yes you can get good picks and prospects, but as far as building a successful team this would be a massive setback.

Yes and that is one reason he should move for picks.

we already have a 1st and a 2nd C.

Stacking Cs when we lack at other areas isn’t good capwise.

We really need a good RHD. 
How can we develop or trade for one if we don’t do it as soon as possible? 
 

[Junkyard Dog]

25 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Yes and that is one reason he should move for picks.

we already have a 1st and a 2nd C.

Stacking Cs when we lack at other areas isn’t good capwise.

We really need a good RHD. 
How can we develop or trade for one if we don’t do it as soon as possible? 
 

To add to this.

 

 

[CaptainLinden16]

24 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Yes and that is one reason he should move for picks.

we already have a 1st and a 2nd C.

Stacking Cs when we lack at other areas isn’t good capwise.

We really need a good RHD. 
How can we develop or trade for one if we don’t do it as soon as possible? 
 

Picks are practically useless unless they are in top 10.  Even then Joulevi and Virtanen say "Hi".  You can never have enough good centers as they can play wing if needed.  Petterson can't win a faceoff to save his life, he is 150 pounds at best, and having an awful year offensively.  Lets not count our chickens...I assume that's who you have penciled in a 1C.  Not saying he doesn't become one, but it certainly isn't a given.  

 

If you can get Lafreniere and Schneider from NY for Miller and Motte/Schenn or 2nd round pick or whatever it would take then I say fine as both are NHL ready.  But even then its a gamble...

 

Miller is a 1C, leader, excellent at faceoffs, and a physical player who kills penalties.  We are not a 1st round pick or two from picking up a player like that again.  He is a very rare player and the type you build your team around.  

[Warhippy]

14 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Picks are practically useless unless they are in top 10.  Even then Joulevi and Virtanen say "Hi".  You can never have enough good centers as they can play wing if needed.  Petterson can't win a faceoff to save his life, he is 150 pounds at best, and having an awful year offensively.  Lets not count our chickens...I assume that's who you have penciled in a 1C.  Not saying he doesn't become one, but it certainly isn't a given.  

 

If you can get Lafreniere and Schneider from NY for Miller and Motte/Schenn or 2nd round pick or whatever it would take then I say fine as both are NHL ready.  But even then its a gamble...

 

Miller is a 1C, leader, excellent at faceoffs, and a physical player who kills penalties.  We are not a 1st round pick or two from picking up a player like that again.  He is a very rare player and the type you build your team around.  

He is also our biggest asset and more likely than not walking at the end of next season barring a massive increase in salary.

 

Like it or not, he's essentially going to be unaffordable  for this team on the downslope of his career barring an idiotic overpayment or him miraculously taking a very team friendly deal.

 

We as a fan base whined like mad watching all of our assets leave for essentially nothing over the past few seasons, watching the best possible trade asset in this years trade list walk for nothing or lose value via waiting would be one of the worst possible "asset management" moves we could fathom

[Timråfan]

9 hours ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Picks are practically useless unless they are in top 10.  Even then Joulevi and Virtanen say "Hi".  You can never have enough good centers as they can play wing if needed.  Petterson can't win a faceoff to save his life, he is 150 pounds at best, and having an awful year offensively.  Lets not count our chickens...I assume that's who you have penciled in a 1C.  Not saying he doesn't become one, but it certainly isn't a given.  

 

If you can get Lafreniere and Schneider from NY for Miller and Motte/Schenn or 2nd round pick or whatever it would take then I say fine as both are NHL ready.  But even then its a gamble...

 

Miller is a 1C, leader, excellent at faceoffs, and a physical player who kills penalties.  We are not a 1st round pick or two from picking up a player like that again.  He is a very rare player and the type you build your team around.  

Just look at the Flames. Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapani from the same draft and neither was top ten. Mangiapane was drafted 166… 23 goals so far compared to Millers 16. 
I assume we could take all three and be glad. 
 

Miller is a leader according to NA but the Canucks has a lot more players than NA. 
Horvat and players like Tanev is much better leaders for a ”team”. 
 

Regarding faceoffs, how can Petey learn that trade if he can’t practise? 

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

Pete Mahovlich and Dennis Hull are the two guys who really suffered by just having a super awesome brother.  They were great players, as opposed to serviceable NHLers like Brett Lindros, Sean Pronger, Scott Thornton, Dave Dryden, etc...

Don't forget Brent Gretzky ... Keith maybe too lol...not that they were serviceable but close to Brett Lindros anyways just not big.   Add the pocket rocket or Henri Richard to the guys behind shadows, even with a HHOF career,  Maurice shadow was pretty big, one of the best NHLers all-time...only the Sedins could challenge them as best brother duo ever - but don't think they managed it either.  

[Kevin Biestra]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Don't forget Brent Gretzky ... Keith maybe too lol...not that they were serviceable but close to Brett Lindros anyways just not big.   Add the pocket rocket or Henri Richard to the guys behind shadows, even with a HHOF career,  Maurice shadow was pretty big, one of the best NHLers all-time...only the Sedins could challenge them as best brother duo ever - but don't think they managed it either.  

 

Phil and Tony Esposito were way better than the Sedins in my opinion.

 

Yeah Henri got into the Hall so I forget sometimes about how he got overshadowed.  If not for Maurice, Henri would be widely celebrated for all of his Cups as his own individually great player.

 

Keith and Brent Gretzky.  I mean...good players for sure in the sense that anyone who gets to that level at all is a good player.  But kind of crazy that Rich Sutter was the 6th best Sutter brother and still head and shoulders above the 2nd best Gretzky.

 

[IBatch]

12 hours ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Picks are practically useless unless they are in top 10.  Even then Joulevi and Virtanen say "Hi".  You can never have enough good centers as they can play wing if needed.  Petterson can't win a faceoff to save his life, he is 150 pounds at best, and having an awful year offensively.  Lets not count our chickens...I assume that's who you have penciled in a 1C.  Not saying he doesn't become one, but it certainly isn't a given.  

 

If you can get Lafreniere and Schneider from NY for Miller and Motte/Schenn or 2nd round pick or whatever it would take then I say fine as both are NHL ready.  But even then its a gamble...

 

Miller is a 1C, leader, excellent at faceoffs, and a physical player who kills penalties.  We are not a 1st round pick or two from picking up a player like that again.  He is a very rare player and the type you build your team around.  

EP isn't 150lbs, wasn't even that when we drafted him (157 i think lol)....closes to 190 then 180 now which is steady improvement.    

 

I get what your saying, Millers don't grow on trees - and it's also why with his cap hit (especially retention) he's extremely valuable right now.    ANY team can afford him with a minor tweak - line 2.65 million cap back.     TO writers were willing to give their two best prospects (including a 2020 15th overall) and Kerfoot (a good middle six C, on a good contract) back for him as an example.    Bad deal for us as all were forwards ...    IF teams get into a bidding war for Miller, who knows what we could get back.    It's also about the cap space we save by not re-signing him.   If our team isn't good enough with him in the lineup.   Well ... that's why we are having these debates.   I get both sides i truly do.   But i don't want "just playoffs" - i want a great team again. 

[13231]

19 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

The Canucks have either acquired or traded away the 9th overall pick twice in less than a decade.  Once for Schneider, once for OEL / Garland.

So you're thinking a bottom 10 team trades for Miller at the trade deadline this year? @IBatch

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, 13231 said:

So you're thinking a bottom 10 team trades for Miller at the trade deadline this year? @IBatch

Never said that.   But stranger things have happened. 

[Kevin Biestra]

5 minutes ago, 13231 said:

So you're thinking a bottom 10 team trades for Miller at the trade deadline this year? @IBatch

 

I never said that.  I don't know.  But that's more or less what we did in the off season.

 

And then we did it again for Garland and OEL.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

4 minutes ago, 13231 said:

So you're thinking a bottom 10 team trades for Miller at the trade deadline this year? @IBatch

My expectations - based purely on picks - would be more then Tatar got by a large margin.   With retention or bad cap coming back this year and maybe next? Then something like two firsts, two seconds, and a third.    Just picks only.