Trading Elite Players in their Prime -- Are we expecting too much?

[grouse747]

yup, Benning did too much and it wasn't good......

 

but even if what he had added was fairly good, I don't think it would have fit the team's situation that well.

 

Aquillini's though are probably accountable for this too.

[IBatch]

On 2/13/2022 at 12:05 PM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Heh, yeah other than Orland, the 70s teams and their players are pretty underrecognized (save for Quinn and that's all for his coaching and management).  I'd have put Andre Boudrias in the ROH by now.  And done more to recognize Gary Smith as well.  It's too bad that nobody nowadays really know who any of Oddleifson, Lalonde, Ververgaert, Sedlbauer or even Lever and Boudrias are.

 

I guess it happens everywhere to some degree.  I don't know but I get the feeling that Devils fans don't know or care about Glenn Resch nowadays, Sabres fans about Mike Foligno or Danny Gare, Chicago fans about Troy Murray, Red Wings fans about Reed Larson, Boston fans about Mike O'Connell or Barry Pederson for that matter, Penguins fans about Pierre Larouche or Jean Pronovost, etc.

 

 

It's really nice to see younger fans like AJ make an honest attempt to look into guys that used to play with any team (especially ours) - and others on this site too.   Hockey Historians.   That said one thing i find often when you haven't actually watched these guys play, it's really important to get insight from those that have - not just reading the stat lines.   

 

Like both you and i have discussed, had Dave Babych played for EDM instead, absolutely he'd have been in the HHOF for awhile now.   Way before Lowe anyways (and i have no problem with his induction either,  he was hung out to dry often enough and a key member of their core).... I was too young to remember those guys.   And not into the Canucks enough either so sure appreciate what you and others have to say (Smithers) and my family members as well that were around for it (uncles).   These guys are the Horvats, Millers, Brock Boeser's of the older generations.   

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 2/13/2022 at 4:44 PM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

The Linden trade is also easier to swallow and more revered because he ended up back here anyway.  It was like he agreed to be a rental for a few years.  It could have very easily gone quite differently...parted ways never to return like Dino Ciccarelli and the North Stars, or LaFontaine and the Islanders...where it was just a story that ended abruptly.  And a far worse ending than those.  Linden and the fans still got it all, everyone lining up to shake his hand as a Canuck at the end of his final game, etc.  Everybody got to have their cake and eat it too but not by sole virtue of the initial trade.

 

Messier was such a dick.  Gretzky himself didn't even need an A with the Rangers.

Re: Messier (sometimes you can never wash the stink out of an ex-Oiler ).  

Re:  Linden.  Where I managed to forget (for a moment anyhow ) that Iginla was a key member of a hated rival.  The respect he gave Linden (getting the Flames players to come out, etc) was what a classy player would do.  Messier would've likely thought "who the **** is this loser, I gotta hit the nightclubs to spend the millions I'm stealing from the Canucks?".

[Kevin Biestra]

21 hours ago, IBatch said:

It's really nice to see younger fans like AJ make an honest attempt to look into guys that used to play with any team (especially ours) - and others on this site too.   Hockey Historians.   That said one thing i find often when you haven't actually watched these guys play, it's really important to get insight from those that have - not just reading the stat lines.   

 

Like both you and i have discussed, had Dave Babych played for EDM instead, absolutely he'd have been in the HHOF for awhile now.   Way before Lowe anyways (and i have no problem with his induction either,  he was hung out to dry often enough and a key member of their core).... I was too young to remember those guys.   And not into the Canucks enough either so sure appreciate what you and others have to say (Smithers) and my family members as well that were around for it (uncles).   These guys are the Horvats, Millers, Brock Boeser's of the older generations.   

 

Yeah that 50 greatest Canucks series of threads a while back was a good way for people to get to know the team's history and the board actually seemed pretty receptive to hearing about some of the old dogs and even voting for them.  There were a handful of deserving historical candidates left out in the cold at the end but I was also glad to see some of them recognized where I figured recency bias might have them behind Tanner Glass and Dale Wiese or any warm body from the last 10 years.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[Kevin Biestra]

21 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Re: Messier (sometimes you can never wash the stink out of an ex-Oiler ).  

Re:  Linden.  Where I managed to forget (for a moment anyhow ) that Iginla was a key member of a hated rival.  The respect he gave Linden (getting the Flames players to come out, etc) was what a classy player would do.  Messier would've likely thought "who the **** is this loser, I gotta hit the nightclubs to spend the millions I'm stealing from the Canucks?".

 

Especially after 1994 Messier fell in love with his own legend.  I doubt he'd even notice another great player retiring let alone inconvenience himself over it.

 

Even the way the Messier Award is given out is self-celebratory in every way.  That thing is a joke and should be done away with.  Like I care who Mark Messier liked the best every couple of months and that needs to be canonized in league history.

 

 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah that 50 greatest Canucks series of threads a while back was a good way for people to get to know the team's history and the board actually seemed pretty receptive to hearing about some of the old dogs and even voting for them.  There were a handful of deserving historical candidates left out in the cold at the end but I was also glad to see some of them recognized where I figured recency bias might have them behind Tanner Glass and Dale Wiese or any warm body from the last 10 years.

 

 

You bet.   That was just a great way to pass the time waiting for the season...and even in the season i still enjoy that stuff.    We had to be a little loud at times, but your ability to shed light and bring some colour into certain players absolutely helped sway some opinions at least as far as nominations go.   For the most part they got the right guys on the list, despite being a little all over the place.     Wonder whom we have on the team now that eventually will deserve the honour to be ranked, and where  they will end up (and also wonder where guys that got on it like EP and Brock, and where QHs will be ... and if Demko will end up on it too!)...

 

Miller vs Adams/Courtnall/Ronning for example - like some of the guys from the 80's and 70's, he's a good player, but aside from the bubble we don't know what he's like come playoffs.   All three of those guys were money in the playoffs for us ...

 

Those guys on bad-mediocre teams that produced matter too of course (and can't say we are that great right now - so where would Miller end up compared to some of those guys?).  Sundstrom, Tanti, Skriko, Lanz, McCarthy, Seldbaur, Vervegeart, Boudrias and many others, it was really neat to see you and other folks pipe up on them ... Gary Smith of course in net.     And of course the first cup run ... Broduer of course.   I remember how highly touted he was back then just from the hockey talk in class and you don't get a moniker like King Richard without being something special.    Everyone also has their favourites, and you can't look at the stat lines and understand fully what they played like.   Need to have actually watched them play ... it does help a lot getting info from those that have.    For me it was Momesso, not a guy who was around for long - that deserved a slot in the top 50 or at least had a good argument to be there.   There was also quite a few others that did too though so get it.    Had to beat the Murzyn drum hard too.   Lumme Murzyn i believe is still the longest standing defensive pairing, and in those peak early 90's years he was something else infront of the net against some big bad ass power forwards.    In the end the list was great, and agree a lot of fans were receptive.    Maybe we should do it again this off season.... 

[Boudrias]

18 minutes ago, IBatch said:

You bet.   That was just a great way to pass the time waiting for the season...and even in the season i still enjoy that stuff.    We had to be a little loud at times, but your ability to shed light and bring some colour into certain players absolutely helped sway some opinions at least as far as nominations go.   For the most part they got the right guys on the list, despite being a little all over the place.     Wonder whom we have on the team now that eventually will deserve the honour to be ranked, and where  they will end up (and also wonder where guys that got on it like EP and Brock, and where QHs will be ... and if Demko will end up on it too!)...

 

Miller vs Adams/Courtnall/Ronning for example - like some of the guys from the 80's and 70's, he's a good player, but aside from the bubble we don't know what he's like come playoffs.   All three of those guys were money in the playoffs for us ...

 

Those guys on bad-mediocre teams that produced matter too of course (and can't say we are that great right now - so where would Miller end up compared to some of those guys?).  Sundstrom, Tanti, Skriko, Lanz, McCarthy, Seldbaur, Vervegeart, Boudrias and many others, it was really neat to see you and other folks pipe up on them ... Gary Smith of course in net.     And of course the first cup run ... Broduer of course.   I remember how highly touted he was back then just from the hockey talk in class and you don't get a moniker like King Richard without being something special.    Everyone also has their favourites, and you can't look at the stat lines and understand fully what they played like.   Need to have actually watched them play ... it does help a lot getting info from those that have.    For me it was Momesso, not a guy who was around for long - that deserved a slot in the top 50 or at least had a good argument to be there.   There was also quite a few others that did too though so get it.    Had to beat the Murzyn drum hard too.   Lumme Murzyn i believe is still the longest standing defensive pairing, and in those peak early 90's years he was something else infront of the net against some big bad ass power forwards.    In the end the list was great, and agree a lot of fans were receptive.    Maybe we should do it again this off season.... 

Today we debate the strategic value of moving a Miller or maybe Boeser or Garland in an effort to build a broader based Cup contender. Batch, I know you have raised the point that possibly keeping players and driving for a playoff spot is a better move. I won't get into that debate. My point was King Richard's run in '82 versus what Demko could possibly do this year if the club made it to the post season. In 1982 the Canucks were virtually carried to the postseason by the unbelievable play of Richard Brodeur. What a run! 5' 6" tender who never recorded a SV% over 0.900 in his NHL career of 377 games. In '82 he was 20-18-12 with a 0.891 SV%, 3.35 gaa during the regular season. Playoffs: 11-6-0 with a .918 SV% and a 2.71 gaa! Sure the Islanders took the Canucks out in 4 straight but the first 2 games in NY were Van's to win. When Bubble Demko was performing his magic I was thinking of King Richard.   

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Especially after 1994 Messier fell in love with his own legend.  I doubt he'd even notice another great player retiring let alone inconvenience himself over it.

 

Even the way the Messier Award is given out is self-celebratory in every way.  That thing is a joke and should be done away with.  Like I care who Mark Messier liked the best every couple of months and that needs to be canonized in league history.

 

 

No doubt.  For Canucks fans that's just a reminder that we could care to do without - and like you, i really liked the Oilers Messier.   For this era, would be like Drasaitl winning a bunch of cups, then getting under McDavids shadow, winning another cup - moving on to a new team and winning the Hart - and a few years later beating us in a nail biter of a cup final.   And also wrecking our best playoff forwards ribs prior to game 7, and then a few years later signing with us.    After scoring close to 100 goals and 200 points his last two seasons.    Then like a hand grenade blowing up a dressing room that had a lot of guys just entering or in their primes, including the player he blew up in game 6, that almost willed us into a cup anyways.  Only way i can explain it.    Guys a legend, but also a legend in his own mind too.  

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Boudrias said:

Today we debate the strategic value of moving a Miller or maybe Boeser or Garland in an effort to build a broader based Cup contender. Batch, I know you have raised the point that possibly keeping players and driving for a playoff spot is a better move. I won't get into that debate. My point was King Richard's run in '82 versus what Demko could possibly do this year if the club made it to the post season. In 1982 the Canucks were virtually carried to the postseason by the unbelievable play of Richard Brodeur. What a run! 5' 6" tender who never recorded a SV% over 0.900 in his NHL career of 377 games. In '82 he was 20-18-12 with a 0.891 SV%, 3.35 gaa during the regular season. Playoffs: 11-6-0 with a .918 SV% and a 2.71 gaa! Sure the Islanders took the Canucks out in 4 straight but the first 2 games in NY were Van's to win. When Bubble Demko was performing his magic I was thinking of King Richard.   

Nice.   That's a really nice read thanks!   Guess that's why he's the King.   I've always had and always will have a soft spot for players that make it work the most when it matters the most.    He did give our team a chance to win too, against one of the most dominant teams in the NHLs history.    

Edited February 16, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

6 hours ago, Boudrias said:

Today we debate the strategic value of moving a Miller or maybe Boeser or Garland in an effort to build a broader based Cup contender. Batch, I know you have raised the point that possibly keeping players and driving for a playoff spot is a better move. I won't get into that debate. My point was King Richard's run in '82 versus what Demko could possibly do this year if the club made it to the post season. In 1982 the Canucks were virtually carried to the postseason by the unbelievable play of Richard Brodeur. What a run! 5' 6" tender who never recorded a SV% over 0.900 in his NHL career of 377 games. In '82 he was 20-18-12 with a 0.891 SV%, 3.35 gaa during the regular season. Playoffs: 11-6-0 with a .918 SV% and a 2.71 gaa! Sure the Islanders took the Canucks out in 4 straight but the first 2 games in NY were Van's to win. When Bubble Demko was performing his magic I was thinking of King Richard.   

 

It was a hell of a performance.  Even after getting swept by the Islanders, Brodeur still had a higher SPCT than Billy Smith and led the league for the playoffs.  Some point to the King's ordinary regular season stats in his NHL career and say his performance came out of nowhere, but he was always a clutch goalie for his career.  He was the first Memorial Cup MVP Trophy winner in history and had backstopped the Nordiques to the AVCO Cup (and to the final another time).  The first time he got to the AVCO Cup final he also got swept...and still finished the playoffs with a .913 SPCT, in the WHA.

 

Anyway, good thing he was only a third stringer on the mighty Islanders and they didn't need him...we basically got him for nothing at all.  You can't usually expect much of a player when you're getting him for simply switching 5th round picks with another team.  That might not even get you the rights to present day Jim Rutherford in net right now.  Can't blame the Islanders for not messing with the Smith / Resch tandem.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

It was a hell of a performance.  Even after getting swept by the Islanders, Brodeur still had a higher SPCT than Billy Smith and led the league for the playoffs.  Some point to the King's ordinary regular season stats in his NHL career and say his performance came out of nowhere, but he was always a clutch goalie for his career.  He was the first Memorial Cup MVP Trophy winner in history and had backstopped the Nordiques to the AVCO Cup (and to the final another time).  The first time he got to the AVCO Cup final he also got swept...and still finished the playoffs with a .913 SPCT, in the WHA.

 

Anyway, good thing he was only a third stringer on the mighty Islanders and they didn't need him...we basically got him for nothing at all.  You can't usually expect much of a player when you're getting him for simply switching 5th round picks with another team.  That might not even get you the rights to present day Jim Rutherford in net right now.  Can't blame the Islanders for not messing with the Smith / Resch tandem.

 

 

See this is why having folks like you on is so great.  Historical perspectives.   Best i got is Lumme for a second lol... We need some lopsided trades from our past right now to make this version of the Canucks to get to the next level.  

[Kevin Biestra]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

See this is why having folks like you on is so great.  Historical perspectives.   Best i got is Lumme for a second lol... We need some lopsided trades from our past right now to make this version of the Canucks to get to the next level.  

 

Getting Sami Salo for Peter Schaefer was a pretty nice haul as well.

 

[IBatch]

27 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Getting Sami Salo for Peter Schaefer was a pretty nice haul as well.

 

Absolutely! 

[Kevin Biestra]

13 hours ago, IBatch said:

You bet.   That was just a great way to pass the time waiting for the season...and even in the season i still enjoy that stuff.    We had to be a little loud at times, but your ability to shed light and bring some colour into certain players absolutely helped sway some opinions at least as far as nominations go.   For the most part they got the right guys on the list, despite being a little all over the place.     Wonder whom we have on the team now that eventually will deserve the honour to be ranked, and where  they will end up (and also wonder where guys that got on it like EP and Brock, and where QHs will be ... and if Demko will end up on it too!)...

 

Miller vs Adams/Courtnall/Ronning for example - like some of the guys from the 80's and 70's, he's a good player, but aside from the bubble we don't know what he's like come playoffs.   All three of those guys were money in the playoffs for us ...

 

For me, it's a pretty easy Adams / Ronning / Courtnall > Miller on the list right now for greatest Canucks of all time.  Especially Ronning but all three for sure.  The easiest test for that in my mind is if somebody suggested the Ring of Honour for a player.  I'd probably be in favor of Ronning and I would have to definitely think about Courtnall and Adams.  On the other hand, if Miller retired or got traded tomorrow and somebody suggested the ROH...it would be laughable.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

For me, it's a pretty easy Adams / Ronning / Courtnall > Miller on the list right now for greatest Canucks of all time.  Especially Ronning but all three for sure.  The easiest test for that in my mind is if somebody suggested the Ring of Honour for a player.  I'd probably be in favor of Ronning and I would have to definitely think about Courtnall and Adams.  On the other hand, if Miller retired or got traded tomorrow and somebody suggested the ROH...it would be laughable.

 

 

 

Yes.   Ronning would be nice to see in the ROH, wish we kept him.    Went on and did good things for the remainder of his career on lesser teams .... also a Vancouver boy, drafted in the 7th round ... underdog size in an era when hockey players were mountain sized.   Played right to the lockout - the entirety of the dead puck era and still managed  869 points ... in the same range as Linden and Naslund career wise. 

 

Edit: Oh yes for sure Adams/Courtnall > Miller - even with one more year of similar play by Miller unless we see some playoff action you couldn't put him ahead of those guys.   Courtnall was a beast in the playoffs for us, and although streaky, no slouch in the regular season either.   Was chippy as f!ck too, like Burrows kind in how he'd wind up other teams.     Only played 4 seasons for us and a bit (including a lockout one - but hey Miller basically is doing the same with covid so good comp as far as games played IF he plays next year too) , but filled the net often enough, especially in the playoffs.   Adams was clutch, scored some big goals for us, one of the biggest ever too... both these guys BC boys, and seven seasons parts of two cores really, the one that gave us that intense 89 series (Vernon made a tough save on him, Linden and Tanti otherwise no cup for them!) and the early 90's one...

Edited February 17, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Yes.   Ronning would be nice to see in the ROH, wish we kept him.    Went on and did good things for the remainder of his career on lesser teams .... also a Vancouver boy, drafted in the 7th round ... underdog size in an era when hockey players were mountain sized.   Played right to the lockout - the entirety of the dead puck era and still managed  869 points ... in the same range as Linden and Naslund career wise. 

 

Yep, just like Linden retired in the top 100 of all time in scoring.  Ronning was great for all of those years after the Canucks.  He left the Predators as their all time scoring leader.  He beat the Canucks as part of the Wild after the Bertuzzi taunt in game seven.  He still might have had a bit of hockey in him too after the lockout.  The league just did a purge of older players.  Guys like Brett Hull were clearly done but a few guys like Ronning may have had the plug pulled on them prematurely.

 

I hated Bill Berg for the rest of his career because he threw Ronning down on his shoulder and injured him.  Might be a suspension now but back then it wasn't even a minor penalty.

 

 

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yep, just like Linden retired in the top 100 of all time in scoring.  Ronning was great for all of those years after the Canucks.  He left the Predators as their all time scoring leader.  He beat the Canucks as part of the Wild after the Bertuzzi taunt in game seven.  He still might have had a bit of hockey in him too after the lockout.  The league just did a purge of older players.  Guys like Brett Hull were clearly done but a few guys like Ronning may have had the plug pulled on them prematurely.

 

I hated Bill Berg for the rest of his career because he threw Ronning down on his shoulder and injured him.  Might be a suspension now but back then it wasn't even a minor penalty.

 

 

Yes there were quite a few older players who might have played another season or two or even three without the lockout.    Some retired because a year off around your Swan Song years is tough to engage .... some tried post lockout and were pushed out quickly because they couldn't keep up with the game anymore , their antics didn't work well with no interference, holding etc (Ludwig's and Hatchers of the league, once coveted, now a liability).    Keep using Zubov as an example of how points exploded for skilled players, the Sedins are actually good examples too though.    Also feel that mental toughness the Sedins gained during the dead puck era kept them throughout their career, both their fitness drive and their hooking/slashing penalties was earned the hard way (keeping fit to survive the dead puck era and the NHL in general, and learned to use the lumber a little to keep their space somewhat - work safety stuff lol)...37 year old Zubov getting over 70 points ... how many more would he of had if he started after the lockout instead?   A lot.    We saw the exodus of a lot of blue chip players too.    Also wonder if Mark Messier would have played one or two more years....he got 43 points in 76 games pre-lockout and endured the entire dead puck era.   Maybe he'd have played until he was 50 like Howe who knows.   He was under contract - with the lockout season and the half season in 94-95 when he was also on pace for a typical 50/100 season, id bet good money he lost quite a few more points as a result.   Just like others.   Brett Hull for sure maybe would have challenged Howes 802 goals as well.   Jagr ... well he would have for sure had he stayed in the league...

[Kevin Biestra]

14 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes there were quite a few older players who might have played another season or two or even three without the lockout.    Some retired because a year off around your Swan Song years is tough to engage .... some tried post lockout and were pushed out quickly because they couldn't keep up with the game anymore , their antics didn't work well with no interference, holding etc (Ludwig's and Hatchers of the league, once coveted, now a liability).    Keep using Zubov as an example of how points exploded for skilled players, the Sedins are actually good examples too though.    Also feel that mental toughness the Sedins gained during the dead puck era kept them throughout their career, both their fitness drive and their hooking/slashing penalties was earned the hard way (keeping fit to survive the dead puck era and the NHL in general, and learned to use the lumber a little to keep their space somewhat - work safety stuff lol)...37 year old Zubov getting over 70 points ... how many more would he of had if he started after the lockout instead?   A lot.    We saw the exodus of a lot of blue chip players too.    Also wonder if Mark Messier would have played one or two more years....he got 43 points in 76 games pre-lockout and endured the entire dead puck era.   Maybe he'd have played until he was 50 like Howe who knows.   He was under contract - with the lockout season and the half season in 94-95 when he was also on pace for a typical 50/100 season, id bet good money he lost quite a few more points as a result.   Just like others.   Brett Hull for sure maybe would have challenged Howes 802 goals as well.   Jagr ... well he would have for sure had he stayed in the league...

 

Yeah Zubov was great.  People forget that he led the 1994 Rangers in scoring that season.  He was one of extremely few defensemen to ever lead the Stanley Cup champion team in scoring for the year.  I forget how few...he was maybe the only one ever and especially if combining it with the Presidents Trophy...but if I looked it up I wouldn't be surprised if Orr or someone from the pre-Howe days did it.  I'm just going by memory.

 

Zubov and Leetch on the same team that year.  Not sure if there has been a pair of scoring defensemen quite like that on the same team at the same time.  I'm trying to remember if Orr and Park overlapped in Boston for long enough, or if Coffey and Murphy were on the Penguins at the same time.  Ray Bourque and Reed Larson, but Larson was slowing down when he got to Boston.  Larry Robinson and Guy Lapointe.  I guess MacInnis and Suter and/or Reinhart is up there and probably the best 1-2-3 punch ever.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

47 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah Zubov was great.  People forget that he led the 1994 Rangers in scoring that season.  He was one of extremely few defensemen to ever lead the Stanley Cup champion team in scoring for the year.  I forget how few...he was maybe the only one ever and especially if combining it with the Presidents Trophy...but if I looked it up I wouldn't be surprised if Orr or someone from the pre-Howe days did it.  I'm just going by memory.

 

Zubov and Leetch on the same team that year.  Not sure if there has been a pair of scoring defensemen quite like that on the same team at the same time.  I'm trying to remember if Orr and Park overlapped in Boston for long enough, or if Coffey and Murphy were on the Penguins at the same time.  Ray Bourque and Reed Larson, but Larson was slowing down when he got to Boston.  Larry Robinson and Guy Lapointe.  I guess MacInnis and Suter and/or Reinhart is up there and probably the best 1-2-3 punch ever.

 

 

 

Al-Mac and Pronger tough to beat ... later Neidermayer and Pronger - when those guys are on the ice for 30 minutes a game it sure makes it easy for their teammates and the goalie.    I also remember Zubov being the Rangers leading scorer in 94.     Wherever Coffey went it seemed those teams ended up doing well...Detroit was a Western powerhouse for years before they won a cup, and he was part of that ... of course part of PIT and EDM too.   Second best offensive defenseman ever and he kept it up almost right into the end which included dead puck era years.    Orr with good knees would have had a tough time doing that.   Potvin couldn't but do get 19 consecutive playoff series doesn't make it easy on the body.     Those three guys and Borque are my personal top four list all-time.    Coffey gets a bad rap but come one look at how effective he was at scoring!    He actually matched Orr year to year and not to discredit Orr but the WHA had a lot of the talent back then too.   Doubling the leagues size had a lot to do with the explosion of points in the early 70's too.    Coffey played his entire career with the best of the best - WHA came in which gave the talent back to the NHL....four teams worth that is.    Orr, Potvin, Borque, Coffey would be my ranking...Lidstrom ugh.   Pretty nice to have a lockout.   And the best of the older era who he couldn't beat age out.  

 

Edit:  Know this won't be popular, but to me Lidstrom was just the best at the time - although Pronger and Niedermayer were still around for some of it.    I see Larry Murphy and Lidstrom as pretty close peers. Wasn't even the best D on his own teams in the 90's....

Edited February 17, 2022 by IBatch

[cuporbust]

Unless Miller really is a serious locker room issue, I don't understand trading him at all. OP has some great examples of why we shouldn't.  

Edited February 17, 2022 by cuporbust