JM_ Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, Coconuts said: But our ability to legitimately contend would be, we're a cap strapped team as it is. How many contenders have nearly 4M in dead cap? Ain't happening as soon as next season. And that wasn't my point. Rutherford's on record as to thinking our turnaround will require at least a couple years, potentially longer. We'd need a lot of luck. I don't see contending next season as remotely feasible, Boudreau or not. Minni currently has about 4 1/2 in dead cap. Florida 3.5. Its not impossible to be competitive with that, but I agree it stinks to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, JM_ said: Minni currently has about 4 1/2 in dead cap. Florida 3.5. Its not impossible to be competitive with that, but I agree it stinks to have it. Hmm, you got me there. Minny's going to suffer next year though. Guess we'll see, but I'm not optimistic about our chances, Miller or no Miller. If I had it my way I'd build around the young core instead of trying to milk the dregs of whatever Miller's got left of his prime. There's a good chance that if he isn't peaking he'll peak soon, it's not common for players to peak in their early 30's. Guess we'll see. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 25 minutes ago, Coconuts said: Hmm, you got me there. Minny's going to suffer next year though. Guess we'll see, but I'm not optimistic about our chances, Miller or no Miller. If I had it my way I'd build around the young core instead of trying to milk the dregs of whatever Miller's got left of his prime. There's a good chance that if he isn't peaking he'll peak soon, it's not common for players to peak in their early 30's. Guess we'll see. yeah its a toughie for sure. Miller has to be a guy that trends outside of the normal age decline... not sure how anyone can predict that but maybe the new analytics kids on the Canucks staff can shed light on that internally. I'm not opposed to a Miller deal, but man we had better get C depth back somehow, someway. For me, its really around the time we have left with Demko and Hughes. Even with Petey, he has such a $&!#ty QO he may not be part of the picture in 2 years either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Alflives said: The cap will eventually go up, so we should sign Miller (if we keep him) for the full 8 year term to keep the cap as low as possible. I think we can get him for 60 million. If he refuses, then we trade him this summer for the best offer. Why would the cap go up? I can't see the cap going up for the next 4 or more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, hammertime said: Why would the cap go up? I can't see the cap going up for the next 4 or more years. Eventually the cap will go up. That's why the need for the 8 year term. First four years the cap is flat. that's almost a certainty. But after that the cap will go up, so the last four years of Miller's contract will be a declining % of the total. Any term less than 8 years would be a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Just now, Alflives said: Eventually the cap will go up. That's why the need for the 8 year term. First four years the cap is flat. that's almost a certainty. But after that the cap will go up, so the last four years of Miller's contract will be a declining % of the total. Any term less than 8 years would be a mistake. Hmm interesting take. I think he would begin to decline by 35-36 which would make the final 2 years potentially less than favorable even with the cap going up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 I suggested $9 x 5 years, so I'll stick to that. Canucks can't get cheap with JT. The fans have a tendency to want a "home town" discount for any player who likes playing in VAN. It's also not just about point production, Miller brings other intangibles that are so valuable to the team. Pay the man if he stays. If not, then get a King's ransom and move forward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 If we trade either Boeser ($6-$7.5m) or Myers ($6m), plus another bigger contract (e.g. some of Dickinson/ Pearson/ Hamonic or Poolman) then I think Miller at around $8.5m-$9m for say 4 years would be something I'm open to (without clause protection). Winning teams traditionally build around the C, D and G positions (e.g. Pittsburgh - Crosby/ Malkin/ Letang/ Fleury on past teams, plus some pricier but valuable contributors e.g. Hossa, etc., and if we have a core of Petey/ Miller/ Hughes/ Demko, plus OEL/ Horvat/ Garland, then the rest are on ELC's or cheap, I think JT at around $9m can be worth it as a central building block). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanless Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 8 hours ago, deus.ex.makina said: i like Miller at 8.5M i do it and run. I think the bigger issues is for how long i like miller at 6 years 6.4 or 4 years at 8 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 I'd do 8.5m x 6 front loaded and mostly in bonuses to be paid at the begining of each season so he's guaranteed the cash and earning the interest on it. barring this if the contract demands are too high or too long I would entertain a trade. Possible targets. Yes the price is high. Miller is a top 10 player in the league power all situations FWD on what is probably the best contract value league wide for 2 cup runs. If we don't take cap back I would be willing to retain on Miller. LA- Clarke + Byfield If we trade him within our division I want the moon. Would also accept Clarke + Turcotte + Helenius Rags- Schnider + Cuylle + 1st Col- Byram + Newhook + 1st Bos- Lysell + Carlo + 1st Pitz- Marino + Kapanen + 1st and a 2nd Carolina- Necas + Suzuki + Koivunen + Heimosalmi + Lafontain + 2nd yes I want to remove their cupboard from the wall haha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanless Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 9 minutes ago, hammertime said: I'd do 8.5m x 6 front loaded and mostly in bonuses to be paid at the begining of each season so he's guaranteed the cash and earning the interest on it. barring this if the contract demands are too high or too long I would entertain a trade. Possible targets. Yes the price is high. Miller is a top 10 player in the league power all situations FWD on what is probably the best contract value league wide for 2 cup runs. If we don't take cap back I would be willing to retain on Miller. LA- Clarke + Byfield If we trade him within our division I want the moon. Would also accept Clarke + Turcotte + Helenius Rags- Schnider + Cuylle + 1st Col- Byram + Newhook + 1st Bos- Lysell + Carlo + 1st Pitz- Marino + Kapanen + 1st and a 2nd Carolina- Necas + Suzuki + Koivunen + Heimosalmi + Lafontain + 2nd yes I want to remove their cupboard from the wall haha You would pay a 36 year old 8.5 million a year and then front load the contract so its buyout proof? this isnt retaliation because you laughed at my post, this is just questioning paying that much for a 36 year old. the trouble with Miller is he is likely now at his peak and we will get 2 more years of it, then he will start to slow down and settle into a second line role. Its not like he is 25-27 doing this. I know he is a top player in the league right now and he should get paid like one, but only for a few years 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Miller is a better all around player and would be a a UFA. A full NMC for Zibinijad also reduced his AAV. Do we want to give an 8 year contract with a full NMC to a 30 year old player? That seems problematic and rife for disaster right in a window that our best young players are in their primes. Miller at $8.5-9.5 for a max term NMC is way beyond what we should even be considering and that is going to be the market rate for him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 59 minutes ago, Alflives said: Eventually the cap will go up. That's why the need for the 8 year term. First four years the cap is flat. that's almost a certainty. But after that the cap will go up, so the last four years of Miller's contract will be a declining % of the total. Any term less than 8 years would be a mistake. Except that he is likely to decline at a rate faster than his cap hit is depreciating. Signing a guy until he is 38 to a big cap hit and as one of your key players is absolutely a problem. There is a tiny handful of players who are top productive players into their late 30s and hundreds who have the game pass them by. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted March 5, 2022 Author Share Posted March 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Wanless said: You would pay a 36 year old 8.5 million a year and then front load the contract so its buyout proof? this isnt retaliation because you laughed at my post, this is just questioning paying that much for a 36 year old. the trouble with Miller is he is likely now at his peak and we will get 2 more years of it, then he will start to slow down and settle into a second line role. Its not like he is 25-27 doing this. I know he is a top player in the league right now and he should get paid like one, but only for a few years This............ I did not start this thread with an agenda, but the more you think about it, it is pretty much like Wanless says.......... I look at Miller's potential contract as this............ 5,250,000 this year.28 years old...................JR says rebuild 5,250,000 he will be 29 years old..................2nd year of rebuild Canucks still rebuilding 8,500,000 possibility coming out of rebuild....30 years old ..........year 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8,500,000 sure out of rebuild.........................31 years old ..........year 2....he'll be good 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................32 years old ..........year 3....he'll be good Canucks good and so is Miller 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................33 years old ..........year 4....he'll be good ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................34 years old...........year 5..starting to decline 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................35 years old ..........year 6..starting to decline Core starting to age out, so is Miller 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................36 years old...........year 7..declined 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................37 years old...........year 8..declined OK, JR, do you want to put down all this money for 3 years? $78,500,000 of Cap over the next 9.5 years.........I think that handcuffs us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, Wanless said: You would pay a 36 year old 8.5 million a year and then front load the contract so its buyout proof? this isnt retaliation because you laughed at my post, this is just questioning paying that much for a 36 year old. the trouble with Miller is he is likely now at his peak and we will get 2 more years of it, then he will start to slow down and settle into a second line role. Its not like he is 25-27 doing this. I know he is a top player in the league right now and he should get paid like one, but only for a few years Yes I would. Because I think that's the minimum it would take to get the deal done. Jan Is A Hockey Nut is quite right in using Zabinejad as comparable who signed 8x8.5 at age 29. Unlike you I don't think he will begin to decline until age 34-35 if we need to move him in the final year or 2 of his contract it is much easier to do to a cap floor team if the majority of the money has already been paid in bonuses up front. For example if the final 2 years of his contract are at 5m (just for arguments sake) You pay him the 5m in bonus or whatever and all thats left to pay him is next years bonus and a team like Arizona gets him for 5m real $ for 2 years service and all they have to do is carry the cap hit. Which there would be a cost associated with but wouldn't be prohibitive to getting a deal done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 10 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said: This............ I did not start this thread with an agenda, but the more you think about it, it is pretty much like Wanless says.......... I look at Miller's potential contract as this............ 5,250,000 this year.28 years old...................JR says rebuild 5,250,000 he will be 29 years old..................2nd year of rebuild Canucks still rebuilding 8,500,000 possibility coming out of rebuild....30 years old ..........year 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8,500,000 sure out of rebuild.........................31 years old ..........year 2....he'll be good 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................32 years old ..........year 3....he'll be good Canucks good and so is Miller 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................33 years old ..........year 4....he'll be good ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................34 years old...........year 5..starting to decline 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................35 years old ..........year 6..starting to decline Core starting to age out, so is Miller 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................36 years old...........year 7..declined 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................37 years old...........year 8..declined OK, JR, do you want to put down all this money for 3 years? $78,500,000 of Cap over the next 9.5 years.........I think that handcuffs us! I'd do 6 years at that number and give him a NMC for the first 4. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanless Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 21 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said: This............ I did not start this thread with an agenda, but the more you think about it, it is pretty much like Wanless says.......... I look at Miller's potential contract as this............ 5,250,000 this year.28 years old...................JR says rebuild 5,250,000 he will be 29 years old..................2nd year of rebuild Canucks still rebuilding 8,500,000 possibility coming out of rebuild....30 years old ..........year 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8,500,000 sure out of rebuild.........................31 years old ..........year 2....he'll be good 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................32 years old ..........year 3....he'll be good Canucks good and so is Miller 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................33 years old ..........year 4....he'll be good ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................34 years old...........year 5..starting to decline 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................35 years old ..........year 6..starting to decline Core starting to age out, so is Miller 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................36 years old...........year 7..declined 8,500,000 out of rebuild.................................37 years old...........year 8..declined OK, JR, do you want to put down all this money for 3 years? $78,500,000 of Cap over the next 9.5 years.........I think that handcuffs us! Exactly And another troubling thing with miller is he has only been worth first line money since joining the canucks, he was a late bloomer. If this were Crosby absolutely do the 6 year 8 million, but Crosby had the pedigree from the start and Miller had to work to develop his. I think we could see a very unique contract with miller. And i personally think that he had his act together sooner his contract lengths would have been different, likely with no 2 year bridge but a 4 year 4-5 million and then he would gave gotten his 8x8 when he was 26 I could see an evenly structured reasonable cap hit 6-8 year contract that is able to be bought out and with clauses for a couple years or a short 3-4 year contract with big money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PunjabiCanucks Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 2023-2024 ____ Miller (8M) - Boeser (7.5M) Hoglander (4M) - Petey (7.4) - Garland (5M) Pearson (3.3) - Horvat (6.5) - Podkolzin (925K) Assuming Klimovich, Karlsson slot in at a point.... Also hope we get a true 1LW in a draft or trade come time. Pearson should be gone. Im not going to include Dickinson as I dont see him as a part of our team in 2 years. That is 42.7 M in 8 players above Add 26.11 M for OEL, Hughes, Myers (who I hope is gone in 2 years time), and Demko 68.81 Million in 12 players listed above --- We need a LW, 4th line, 3 more dmen, and a back up.... 4TH line (3M), Back up (1.5M) -- 73.3 Million- we still need 3 more dmen, and a LW as per my calculations Salary cap is 81.5M , meaning we got 8.2 Million for 3 dmen , who we hope 1 is a top end RD, a LW who can play w/ Miller and Boeser, and a bottom pairing dmen (3M) 5.2 Million left for a #1RD, and a #1 LW --- HOPEFULLY we can get some beauty ELC in the next 2 years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, PunjabiCanucks said: 2023-2024 ____ Miller (8M) - Boeser (7.5M) Hoglander (4M) - Petey (7.4) - Garland (5M) Pearson (3.3) - Horvat (6.5) - Podkolzin (925K) Assuming Klimovich, Karlsson slot in at a point.... Also hope we get a true 1LW in a draft or trade come time. Pearson should be gone. Im not going to include Dickinson as I dont see him as a part of our team in 2 years. That is 42.7 M in 8 players above Add 26.11 M for OEL, Hughes, Myers (who I hope is gone in 2 years time), and Demko 68.81 Million in 12 players listed above --- We need a LW, 4th line, 3 more dmen, and a back up.... 4TH line (3M), Back up (1.5M) -- 73.3 Million- we still need 3 more dmen, and a LW as per my calculations Salary cap is 81.5M , meaning we got 8.2 Million for 3 dmen , who we hope 1 is a top end RD, a LW who can play w/ Miller and Boeser, and a bottom pairing dmen (3M) 5.2 Million left for a #1RD, and a #1 LW --- HOPEFULLY we can get some beauty ELC in the next 2 years. Hogs will be south of two million for sure. In your scenario of projected cap that allows us to pay Miller more if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Unfortunately (or fortunately) for us, Miller is actually quite a bit better than Zibanejad, I think. He not only has similar offensive numbers, but his defensive game is very good. At this rate, I'm expecting around $9M - $9.5M, assuming he gets extended now. If he isn't signed until after next year, a lot could happen that could change his contract. That said, based on what we're seeing now, I do think Miller will be looking for a long term deal (6-8 years) and big money. He might want trade protection too. It will be very hard to accommodate unless he shocks me and gives us some sort of discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now