VegasCanuck Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 14 hours ago, Crabcakes said: https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/what-can-the-canucks-learn-from-the-avalanche-retool-5484313 Good article by Daniel Wagner drawing parallels between the Canucks long rebuild (or whatever you call it) to the Av's long rebuild which had been going on for 6 years in 2017 when Sakic made multiple moves including the Duchene trade that collectively torched most of the team who wasn't the core. This is one option for the Canucks. Should they go there or should they tinker around the edges like Rutherford suggests. Does what they do depend on whether they can come to terms with JT Miller? I think that Joe Sakic was tremendously lucky with the Duchene trade. Could Allvin do the same with Miller or a package involving Miller? When I think of trading Miller, the Duchene trade is what comes to mind. It reset the Avalanche on a path to the cup final and likely another Stanley Cup. Sometimes there's a good time and reason to trade someone. Look what trading Linden to the Islanders ultimately did for the Canucks, years ago, it completely reset the structure of the team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: Well because you can't pay a 3c 7 mil bucks why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said: When I think of trading Miller, the Duchene trade is what comes to mind. It reset the Avalanche on a path to the cup final and likely another Stanley Cup. Sometimes there's a good time and reason to trade someone. Look what trading Linden to the Islanders ultimately did for the Canucks, years ago, it completely reset the structure of the team. the problem is none of the trade proposals we've seen would set the Canucks up like those trades. Sorry but Chytil, Lundkvist and a late 1st isn't going to set the Canucks up for a future run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasCanuck Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, JM_ said: the problem is none of the trade proposals we've seen would set the Canucks up like those trades. Sorry but Chytil, Lundkvist and a late 1st isn't going to set the Canucks up for a future run. But, those are proposals here, we have no real idea what was actually proposed at the deadline, or what might be proposed this summer. I agree though, if the return needs to justify the trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 17 minutes ago, JM_ said: why not? because there's this thing called a cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said: But, those are proposals here, we have no real idea what was actually proposed at the deadline, or what might be proposed this summer. I agree though, if the return needs to justify the trade. more than anything, that COL trade moved some salary and a player they didn't need. Yes COL got Byram back, but up until very recently he wasn't really contributing much. So we can get the same immediate effect by moving Myers and Pearson, e.g., and use the cap space the way COL did and extend our best players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: because there's this thing called a cap cool. So explain why e.g, 21 mil for 3 C's is worse than 21 mil for 2 C's and a winger if they all produce the same points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, JM_ said: cool. So explain why e.g, 21 mil for 3 C's is worse than 21 mil for 2 C's and a winger if they all produce the same points. You think Bo will produce the same number of points from a 3c position vs a top 6? If Miller is re-signed and Bo, and with Petey expected to now learn to take over the 1c role you have a different role for Bo Until now he has been playing a 'matchup' 2c role not a 3c shutdown role. He has had top 6 wingers to play with for the most part and at time's even Petey on his wing. If he's in a 3c role, he will be tasked with being a shutdown player, harder defensive responsibilities, more PK time, etc (ie Sutter's role), and generally less ice time. How many teams play all 3 lines equivalently? Do we have 6 top 6 wingers? lol we barely have 3... You don't want to be wasting a 30 goal player on the third line - given the role and ice time. So you have to choose, keep Miller or keep Bo...that's just the reality. And then from the trade of whichever player, better distribute your cap to improve the other areas of your team. You cannot make such a suggestion in a vacuum, ignoring the fact we have limited cap and a lot of other holes to fill. We have an excess of high quality centers (a great problem to have it think Lou vs Schnieder same issue) and given the way the game is played only need 2 of them (1 in the goalie example). You have redundant high value assets, and other major holes. You move the high value redundant assets to fill other holes to make the TEAM stronger on the whole. Edited June 17, 2022 by NucknAsia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 21 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: You think Bo will produce the same number of points from a 3c position vs a top 6? If Miller is re-signed and Bo, and with Petey expected to now learn to take over the 1c role you have a different role for Bo Until now he has been playing a 'matchup' 2c role not a 3c shutdown role. He has had top 6 wingers to play with for the most part and at time's even Petey on his wing. If he's in a 3c role, he will be tasked with being a shutdown player, harder defensive responsibilities, more PK time, etc (ie Sutter's role), and generally less ice time. How many teams play all 3 lines equivalently? Do we have 6 top 6 wingers? lol we barely have 3... You don't want to be wasting a 30 goal player on the third line - given the role and ice time. So you have to choose, keep Miller or keep Bo...that's just the reality. And then from the trade of whichever player, better distribute your cap to improve the other areas of your team. You cannot make such a suggestion in a vacuum, ignoring the fact we have limited cap and a lot of other holes to fill. We have an excess of high quality centers (a great problem to have it think Lou vs Schnieder same issue) and given the way the game is played only need 2 of them (1 in the goalie example). You have redundant high value assets, and other major holes. You move the high value redundant assets to fill other holes to make the TEAM stronger on the whole. you're forgetting about PP time in there, and also you're only talking about one style of F play. With Petey, Miller and Bo we can run three scoring lines. We also have a lot more talent in place to deal with injuries. I understand your preference for style but its not the only option for the team. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, JM_ said: you're forgetting about PP time in there, and also you're only talking about one style of F play. With Petey, Miller and Bo we can run three scoring lines. We also have a lot more talent in place to deal with injuries. I understand your preference for style but its not the only option for the team. three scoring lines - we have 3 top 6 wingers dude... show me a team that plays all its top 3 lines evenly. I'm not forgetting about PP time. It's clear you're a big fan of Bo (great) but that shouldn't cloud the reality of how a team is put together in the cap world and WHY... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, NucknAsia said: three scoring lines - we have 3 top 6 wingers dude... show me a team that plays all its top 3 lines evenly. I'm not forgetting about PP time. It's clear you're a big fan of Bo (great) but that shouldn't cloud the reality of how a team is put together in the cap world and WHY... there are many different ways competitive teams are put together in the NHL, there's no one method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, JM_ said: there are many different ways competitive teams are put together in the NHL, there's no one method. Ya and paying 3 centers 7, 9, and 9 million is not an effective way to do it... particularly when you have to pay a winger 7.5 mil and he's not worth it particularly when you're paying 2 dmen 15 mil and they are not worth it particularly when there is a salary cap particularly when there is so much ice time to go around and you need players to play certain roles on a team its not a video game where every shift is about trying to get more and more goals jesus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 16 hours ago, Crabcakes said: I think that Joe Sakic was tremendously lucky with the Duchene trade. Could Allvin do the same with Miller or a package involving Miller? Banking on repeating the Duchene trade is fool's gold IMO. As you say, Colorado got extremely lucky by betting against Ottawa who had a massive failing after losing in 7 in Eastern Conference Finals. Maybe someone with more time/knowledge can comment on this, but it feels like we've seen less and less trades of future first round picks that are undetermined. For every Duchene or Seth Jones trade, there are 10 trades where a 1st round pick moves from a team that already knows they'll be in the playoffs and that it won't be a lottery pick. Anyways I would love to acquire a future 1st round pick in 2023, even if it's top 2 protected (Bedard and Michkov) but I think that's a very unlikely asset to acquire by any team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 14 hours ago, Alflives said: Bo isn’t in that group. Bo is our (currently) 3C. Bo is 6th in the entire league in FO's taken rocking 57% I don't see any 3c's on this list. 1 P. BergeronBOS 73 1,600 991 61.9 2 R. O'ReillySTL 78 1,585 900 56.8 3 L. DraisaitlEDM 80 1,661 887 53.4 4 A. KopitarLA 81 1,509 858 56.9 5 E. LindholmCGY 82 1,592 843 53.0 6 B. HorvatVAN 70 1,475 841 57.0 7 J. TavaresTOR 79 1,342 813 60.6 8 J. ToewsCHI 71 1,336 788 59.0 9 T. HertlSJ 82 1,466 769 52.5 10 S. CrosbyPIT 69 1,450 760 52.4 11 J. PageauNYI 77 1,352 746 55.2 12 J. StaalCAR 78 1,285 735 57.2 13 C. GirouxFLA 75 1,216 733 60.3 14 N. HischierNJ 70 1,402 730 52.1 15 C. SissonsNSH 79 1,292 719 55.7 16 A. BarkovFLA 67 1,252 712 56.9 17 M. ZibanejadNYR 81 1,338 702 52.5 18 N. SuzukiMTL 82 1,410 698 49.5 19 J. Player Name EkMIN 77 1,465 697 47.6 20 R. JohansenNSH 79 1,313 691 52.6 21 A. MatthewsTOR 73 1,229 691 56.2 22 V. TrocheckCAR 81 1,245 680 54.6 23 P. DanaultLA 79 1,262 676 53.6 24 J. MillerVAN 80 1,233 668 54.2 25 C. StephensonVGK 79 1,255 653 52.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 21 minutes ago, hammertime said: Bo is 6th in the entire league in FO's taken rocking 57% I don't see any 3c's on this list. 1 P. BergeronBOS 73 1,600 991 61.9 2 R. O'ReillySTL 78 1,585 900 56.8 3 L. DraisaitlEDM 80 1,661 887 53.4 4 A. KopitarLA 81 1,509 858 56.9 5 E. LindholmCGY 82 1,592 843 53.0 6 B. HorvatVAN 70 1,475 841 57.0 7 J. TavaresTOR 79 1,342 813 60.6 8 J. ToewsCHI 71 1,336 788 59.0 9 T. HertlSJ 82 1,466 769 52.5 10 S. CrosbyPIT 69 1,450 760 52.4 11 J. PageauNYI 77 1,352 746 55.2 12 J. StaalCAR 78 1,285 735 57.2 13 C. GirouxFLA 75 1,216 733 60.3 14 N. HischierNJ 70 1,402 730 52.1 15 C. SissonsNSH 79 1,292 719 55.7 16 A. BarkovFLA 67 1,252 712 56.9 17 M. ZibanejadNYR 81 1,338 702 52.5 18 N. SuzukiMTL 82 1,410 698 49.5 19 J. Player Name EkMIN 77 1,465 697 47.6 20 R. JohansenNSH 79 1,313 691 52.6 21 A. MatthewsTOR 73 1,229 691 56.2 22 V. TrocheckCAR 81 1,245 680 54.6 23 P. DanaultLA 79 1,262 676 53.6 24 J. MillerVAN 80 1,233 668 54.2 25 C. StephensonVGK 79 1,255 653 52.0 On our team it's Miller Petey Bo Bo is the third fiddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, Alflives said: On our team it's Miller Petey Bo Bo is the third fiddle. Funny how both of those guys slide over to wing when Bo comes on to play C for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, JM_ said: the problem is none of the trade proposals we've seen would set the Canucks up like those trades. Sorry but Chytil, Lundkvist and a late 1st isn't going to set the Canucks up for a future run. Agreed People are oblivious to the fact that Jack Rathbone is every bit as good as Lundkvist. 28th overall or whatever the pick will be won't have a great chance of getting us an impact player. Chytil had a nice run in the playoffs and I'd love to acquire him but the odds of him becoming an impact player are very low. Nothing really excites me about a potential NY Rangers deal unless they throw in unprotected 2023 1st round pick and the Canucks become a degenerate gambler betting against the Rangers. Edit: and I forgot that Rangers give up their 1st round pick in the Andrew Copp trade now. Edited June 17, 2022 by VancouverHabitant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Just now, Alflives said: On our team it's Miller Petey Bo Bo is the third fiddle. Lets be real. Pete is a better winger. He isn't strong enough down the middle. Who you want game 7 ot lining up against Mackinnon Pete? or Bo/Miller? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, hammertime said: Lets be real. Pete is a better winger. He isn't strong enough down the middle. Who you want game 7 ot lining up against Mackinnon Pete? or Bo/Miller? Petey is our best defensive center. Drance often talks about how the fancy stats support that. Miller 99 points. Bo is third. We have great center depth. Edited June 17, 2022 by Alflives 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, hammertime said: Bo is 6th in the entire league in FO's taken rocking 57% I don't see any 3c's on this list. 1 P. BergeronBOS 73 1,600 991 61.9 2 R. O'ReillySTL 78 1,585 900 56.8 3 L. DraisaitlEDM 80 1,661 887 53.4 4 A. KopitarLA 81 1,509 858 56.9 5 E. LindholmCGY 82 1,592 843 53.0 6 B. HorvatVAN 70 1,475 841 57.0 7 J. TavaresTOR 79 1,342 813 60.6 8 J. ToewsCHI 71 1,336 788 59.0 9 T. HertlSJ 82 1,466 769 52.5 10 S. CrosbyPIT 69 1,450 760 52.4 11 J. PageauNYI 77 1,352 746 55.2 12 J. StaalCAR 78 1,285 735 57.2 13 C. GirouxFLA 75 1,216 733 60.3 14 N. HischierNJ 70 1,402 730 52.1 15 C. SissonsNSH 79 1,292 719 55.7 16 A. BarkovFLA 67 1,252 712 56.9 17 M. ZibanejadNYR 81 1,338 702 52.5 18 N. SuzukiMTL 82 1,410 698 49.5 19 J. Player Name EkMIN 77 1,465 697 47.6 20 R. JohansenNSH 79 1,313 691 52.6 21 A. MatthewsTOR 73 1,229 691 56.2 22 V. TrocheckCAR 81 1,245 680 54.6 23 P. DanaultLA 79 1,262 676 53.6 24 J. MillerVAN 80 1,233 668 54.2 25 C. StephensonVGK 79 1,255 653 52.0 Sissons is C3 - Johansen and Granlund are ahead of him. Pageau is also C3 - Barzal and Nelson are their top-6 Cs. Ek is also C3 although he is tied 2nd in TOI. Trocheck and Staal are middle 6Cs with Aho at C1. Edited June 17, 2022 by mll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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