Canucks move up 8 spots in NHL Front Office Confidence Rankings

[Hogs & Podz]

1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

The target for Gillis was diffent than the target for Benning. MG drafting was not good but the team he built was a great team for a number of seasons. His win record I doubt will ever be repeated and he came this close to taking the Cup.  I don't know how many trophies Vcr garnered during his time as GM but it was a lot. Presidents trophy x 2 SC game 7 and he was voted not 10th best GM but el suprimo by his pears. He new the team needed a rebuild as did Torts. Unfortunately ownwership felt they new better. He did leave the team with Markstrom, Horvat, Tanev, Hamhuis amongst others as well as the Sedin tied up on a reasonable contract, that team had one hurrah after he left. And the Benning stepped in to draft the likes of Virtanen and Juolevi.

 

Benning if he was there for another 8 years would never earn the accolades that MG earned.

 

What I HATE is those fans that judge the entire success of the team by it's drafting. I judge the team by success on the ice and winning. I doubt if there will ever be a folly like signing Ericksson to a long term Cap heavy contract, never. That signing hung around Benning like a bad smell for years, never mind the Beagles, Rousell, Tim Schaller was another beauty. JB/FA wasted 8 years of this franchise. I'll say this MG to his detrment was arrogant, super intelligent and too much or Aquaman to handle/endure. JB also fired Gilman and Brackett, they were no yes men and far to smart for him.

Like life there is a lot of grey when breaking down the qualities of our past gms. Comparing one to the other, is like a dog chasing his tail. Truth is they contributed to the good and the bad.  They had their areas of strength and areas of weakness.  We can all agree that unfortunately, we haven't yet had a GM that has been well rounded enough to get us over the hump.

Let's hope that Jim and Patrick together, provide strength and stability across all departments.  I'm encouraged because the size and diversity of the management staff is a first for this franchise.  Hopefully this new regime translate to winning results on the ice in Van and Abby.  Exciting year!

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Hogs & Podz

[Fred65]

I can't make my mind up. I some times think paralysis by analysis, too many cooks etc. Kepp in mind a camel is a horse invented by a committee 

[Hogs & Podz]

1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

I can't make my mind up. I some times think paralysis by analysis, too many cooks etc. Kepp in mind a camel is a horse invented by a committee 

My thoughts exactly.  We'll find out in time.  One thing I've noticed, regardless of new management, they reap the benefits and are stunted by previous management's decisions.  

 

What I like about the transition from Burke to Nonis is, there was a complimentary transition.  Burke built the skaters and development of them through the affiliation with Manitoba.  While Nonis and staff worked the professional scouting to get Luongo. 

 

So to me, Burke was similar to Benning in the area of aggressive moves and drafting (not safe picks or trades), whereas Nonis was much more methodical in his approach hence the 'no nuts' nick name.  I'm curious to see if the Allvin management group will be closer to a Nonis type.  So far it seems that way.... Complimentary moves versus major changes.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Hogs & Podz

[spook007]

On 8/27/2022 at 9:43 AM, King Loui said:

Benning was saddled by contracts he signed himself.  Ever since day one it was bad contract after bad contract, spending to the cap and finishing in the bottom 5..  Sbisa, Sutter, Eriksson, Gagner, Gudbranson, Ferland, Roussel, Beagle, Gudbranson, Holtby...    

 

 

but Gillis

Guddy so bad you named him twice... did also get a few good players. Vanek, Miller and Miller, Ferland, Motte etc. 

 

Not everything was bad. 

[Fred65]

1 hour ago, spook007 said:

Guddy so bad you named him twice... did also get a few good players. Vanek, Miller and Miller, Ferland, Motte etc. 

 

Not everything was bad. 

Ferland was a shining example of lack of due diligence. JT worked out fine considering he was brought in as part of the drive for the play-offs. Motte nice guy but already replaced for a lessor Cap hit. It was the concept of rebuilding on the fly, Stanley Cup here we come. The concept was wrong, Benning was a1st time GM and tipped his hat to Aqualini. Gillis told Aquaman he was nuts and consequently fired, the roster needed a full rebuild. For 8 years we've suffered Aquamans lack of understanding. I should add that winning the SC was driven by his desire to win during his fathers life. Which is a noble thing

[Sharpshooter]

On 8/18/2022 at 2:43 PM, Jaimito said:

 

 

[spook007]

10 hours ago, Fred65 said:

Ferland was a shining example of lack of due diligence. JT worked out fine considering he was brought in as part of the drive for the play-offs. Motte nice guy but already replaced for a lessor Cap hit. It was the concept of rebuilding on the fly, Stanley Cup here we come. The concept was wrong, Benning was a1st time GM and tipped his hat to Aqualini. Gillis told Aquaman he was nuts and consequently fired, the roster needed a full rebuild. For 8 years we've suffered Aquamans lack of understanding. I should add that winning the SC was driven by his desire to win during his fathers life. Which is a noble thing

cheers Fred. Ferland was a gamble, but a gamble worth taking. We've been needing a bit of muscle that could play hockey as well, for a long time... it didn't work out because of concussions, so he went on injured reserve. 
I know Motte has been replaced, but that didn't make him a bad pickup, which was why, I reacted. 
 

I didn't have a problem with GM MG, and we had a great team under his stewardship, but he was also the main reason, we went from top dogs to the bottom of the barrel... leaving zilth to JB to work with. 
 

Yes we should not have brought in Eriksson, but players like Guddy had something we were in dire need of. Unfortunately the boy was very good at hockey, which was a massive surprise, since his playing partner in Florida was really upset to see him leave. Beagle was brought in to show the young players, what it takes to become a winner. 
 

We've now spent 8 years under JB and finally there is a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. 
 

Had JB fired Green instead of extending him and useless Baumer, he may still have been in the GM chair. 
He didn't, and he isn't...

 

I don't bemoan his departure, but I'll lay low on the pom-poms until something actually does suggest, this group are going to move the needle for us.  
 

So far all has been about lack of cap space and then they sign a winger to 5year contract, wanting to keep JT and Bo but not having the resources to do so, in which case trading JT would be the wise move, but nothing has happened.... yet at least. 

 

[iinatcc]

I guess the main criticism would be that the new management team really hasn't done much to change or improve the team since they took over.

 

Which is fair, but my counter argument would be imagine if Benning had remained, things would have gotten much worse. 

 

[DSVII]

11 hours ago, spook007 said:

 

I didn't have a problem with GM MG, and we had a great team under his stewardship, but he was also the main reason, we went from top dogs to the bottom of the barrel... leaving zilth to JB to work with. 
 

 

I'll always push back against this. Despite only being allowed one draft offseason to do a partial rebuild/recoup of assets, Gillis gave Benning:

 

Markstrom, Horvat, Tanev (24 years old), Kassian, Hansen, Prime Edler (28 yrs old).

The roster was a 100 pt team that had tradeable value, as evidenced by the later trades of Burrows/Bieksa/Garrison, Benning just chose not to move on from the assets. In fact, this 'no value' roster has still outperformed any of the subsequent teams Benning put together after the Gillis pieces left, despite being coached by 1-2-3-4 Willie.

Also, keep in mind, in his first offseasons, Benning was able to deploy ~$24 mil in cap space with the acquisitions of Miller/Vrbata/Sutter/Sbisa/Dorsett/Prust. Having the flexibility to make moves amounting to 30% of your cap is a great asset regardless of the situation your team is in. In contrast, JR so far has been able to deploy only 6-8% of the cap due to the unmoveable contracts Benning left him and that was partly thanks to Ottawa taking Hamonic off our hands.

Benning inherited a team that was 10th in power rankings in 2014. That's not too shabby considering the were two seasons removed from a president's trophy.

A playoff team that is ranked top 10 in power rankings has tradeable assets.

So in summary Benning started off with:

• A 100+ point playoff team with tradeable assets. (Sedins aside)
• The 6th overall pick (which became Jake Virtanen)
• A lower ranked prospect pool yes, but still had names like Brandon Gaunce, Eddie Lack, Frankie Corrado, Jordan subban Nicklas Jensen and Shinkaruk (*these guys had value at the time that could have been used in a trade)
• A 1G (marky), 1 RHD (Tanev), 1 LHD (Edler), Future Captain and 2C in Horvat, Kassian (his stock was still high back then)
• A tradeable 2C in Kesler that even with the restricted teams list, had assets available that were much better than Sbisa which Benning ultimately valued above a prospect like Shea Theodore or a push for the 10OA (a pro scouting error)
• A farm system that was built from the ground up (Gillis never had control over player deployment and development with the Chicago wolves. The farm system was set up for Benning which he never filled)
• ~$24 million in cap space to deploy after trading Kes (~30% of the cap), in a salary cap world where we see 1 year/ $6 mil cap dumps moved for a 1st this is significant

Edited August 29, 2022 by DSVII

[spook007]

1 hour ago, DSVII said:

I'll always push back against this. Despite only being allowed one draft offseason to do a partial rebuild/recoup of assets, Gillis gave Benning:

 

Markstrom, Horvat, Tanev (24 years old), Kassian, Hansen, Prime Edler (28 yrs old).

The roster was a 100 pt team that had tradeable value, as evidenced by the later trades of Burrows/Bieksa/Garrison, Benning just chose not to move on from the assets. In fact, this 'no value' roster has still outperformed any of the subsequent teams Benning put together after the Gillis pieces left, despite being coached by 1-2-3-4 Willie.

Also, keep in mind, in his first offseasons, Benning was able to deploy ~$24 mil in cap space with the acquisitions of Miller/Vrbata/Sutter/Sbisa/Dorsett/Prust. Having the flexibility to make moves amounting to 30% of your cap is a great asset regardless of the situation your team is in. In contrast, JR so far has been able to deploy only 6-8% of the cap due to the unmoveable contracts Benning left him and that was partly thanks to Ottawa taking Hamonic off our hands.

Benning inherited a team that was 10th in power rankings in 2014. That's not too shabby considering the were two seasons removed from a president's trophy.

A playoff team that is ranked top 10 in power rankings has tradeable assets.

So in summary Benning started off with:

• A 100+ point playoff team with tradeable assets. (Sedins aside)
• The 6th overall pick (which became Jake Virtanen)
• A lower ranked prospect pool yes, but still had names like Brandon Gaunce, Eddie Lack, Frankie Corrado, Jordan subban Nicklas Jensen and Shinkaruk (*these guys had value at the time that could have been used in a trade)
• A 1G (marky), 1 RHD (Tanev), 1 LHD (Edler), Future Captain and 2C in Horvat, Kassian (his stock was still high back then)
• A tradeable 2C in Kesler that even with the restricted teams list, had assets available that were much better than Sbisa which Benning ultimately valued above a prospect like Shea Theodore or a push for the 10OA (a pro scouting error)
• A farm system that was built from the ground up (Gillis never had control over player deployment and development with the Chicago wolves. The farm system was set up for Benning which he never filled)
• ~$24 million in cap space to deploy after trading Kes (~30% of the cap), in a salary cap world where we see 1 year/ $6 mil cap dumps moved for a 1st this is significant

Cheers DSVll

Agree on the first part, but disagree on the second part.

 

The prospect pool sucked, and was almost worthless...

Kassian has issues outside of Hockey, and not much Benning could do about that...

Kesler, devalued himself by only wanting to be traded 2 two teams... thought Benning did ok with return, he got for him. Theodore became a far better player, but A: was he available and B: Benning needed defenders...

I was under the impression that the farm system was shifted to UTICA and later Abbortsford under Bennings stewardship?

As for cap yes agree, however I think it was FAs wish that money was spent to make a contender, and not wait for pieces to mature... Agree, that with hindsight, if we had gone down the road of accumulate draft picks, we likely would have even been better of now, or at least earlier.

JV was a poor pick, but his other pick McCann did eventually make it to become a top six player. Think the draft was actually a win for Canucks, with Demko, Tryamkin and Forsling...

The worst Benning deal was the Eriksson deal.... But that was at a later stage. 

 

There was very little to build on in the prospect pool, very little, and maybe he could rob somebody blind for the prospects available in trades, but unlikely.

The amount of NMCs/NTCs handed out by MG also tied Bennings hand, in the same way JR/PA's saying they that their hand is kind of tied, due to max cap.

 

Cap space is great, if you wanna take advantage of opportunities, but if the opportunities you take turns out to be garbage, then you got 'Eriksson'... 

It can be debated, if JB should have waited spending to the cap, until they had enough good prospects in the system, to fill in the blanks, when the cap was being taken by star players, but again if FA wanted the team to be a playoffs team yesterday, it was kind of hard. 

 

I liked the MG years, but it was always going to cost at some stage... 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by spook007
spelling

[DSVII]

2 hours ago, spook007 said:

Cheers DSVll

Agree on the first part, but disagree on the second part.

 

The prospect pool sucked, and was almost worthless...

 

 

A cheers back to you!

 

Ours isn't much better right now haha but yes I will agree it was on the lower end of the spectrum, but it's wasn't worthless. Gaunce/Subban/Shinkaruk/Corrado still had value you could trade. Besides, with the draft position Benning inherited from Gillis, we add Jake and McCann to that. There were other teams with less than worthless pools, something could have been done with that from an asset management standpoint.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2108713-re-ranking-every-teams-prospect-pool-after-2014-nhl-draft

 

Quote

Kassian has issues outside of Hockey, and not much Benning could do about that...

I think we can apply the benefit of hindsight here, at that time no one knew about Kass' issues, think we still could have got something for him. I still remember the hype at that time around him as being a potential Tyler Bertuzzi. Diminished value yes but value nonetheless, i hated the hodgson trade for the record although with hindsight i see it had to be done.

 

Quote

Kesler, devalued himself by only wanting to be traded 2 two teams... thought Benning did ok with return, he got for him. Theodore became a far better player, but A: was he available and B: Benning needed defenders...

I think the fact that Anaheim traded Theodore to Vegas two years later to keep Manson meant that he was a moveable asset. Benning wanted an nhl ready D in Sbisa (that alone is debatable) as well as Bonino so we had to settle for the 24th pick. 

 

Anaheim was making a push for the cup, who knows? Maybe rather than targeting their roster depth in Bonino/Sbisa, we ask a bit more on the farm in a D man it could have worked. But we'll never know. 

 

But considering Shea Theodore was moved due to expansion draft considerations and Anaheim chose not to value him, I think it was within the realm of possibility

 

Quote

I was under the impression that the farm system was shifted to UTICA and later Abbortsford under Bennings stewardship?

Their inaugural season was 2013-14, under Gillis

 

https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2013/06/14/introducing-the-utica-comets-of-the-ahl/

 

Quote

As for cap yes agree, however I think it was FAs wish that money was spent to make a contender, and not wait for pieces to mature... Agree, that with hindsight, if we had gone down the road of accumulate draft picks, we likely would have even been better of now, or at least earlier.

JV was a poor pick, but his other pick McCann did eventually make it to become a top six player. Think the draft was actually a win for Canucks, with Demko, Tryamkin and Forsling...The worst Benning deal was the Eriksson deal.... But that was at a later stage. 

Yep, the cap itself represents blank slate potential. We've done to death how Benning has deployed that cap space, but I think it's huge that Gillis gave Benning a flexibility that he did not pass onto his successors. 

 

Quote

 

There was very little to build on in the prospect pool, very little, and maybe he could rob somebody blind for the prospects available in trades, but unlikely.

The amount of NMCs/NTCs handed out by MG also tied Bennings hand, in the same way JR/PA's saying they that their hand is kind of tied, due to max cap.

I think the fact that Jason Garrison was traded day one, and eventually Hamhuis/Burrows/Bieksa had expressed or had waived their NTCs years down the road makes the narrative of the 'immoveable' NTCs a bit shaky. For me at least. Besides the NTC deals were signed with cap friendly hits to make the 2011 run. A top 6 player or Top 4 d on a low cap hit is always appreciated by other teams, NTC or not.

 

As to the NTC itself, Garrison himself also said NTC or not, players want to play in teams where they feel wanted.

 

If you ask me, what ties the hands of a GM more than an NTC/NMC is the cap hit. Dickinson and Poolman don't need NTCs just because of the term and hit for their production. Hopefully we can move them like we did with Hamonic!

 

Quote

Cap space is great, if you wanna take advantage of opportunities, but if the opportunities you take turns out to be garbage, then you got 'Eriksson'... 

It can be debated, if JB should have waited spending to the cap, until they had enough good prospects in the system, to fill in the blanks, when the cap was being taken by star players, but again if FA wanted the team to be a playoffs team yesterday, it was kind of hard. 

 

I liked the MG years, but it was always going to cost at some stage... 

Again, cap space is potential, not here to discuss what Benning did with Eriksson (that can be an entire forum haha) but considering we've seen cap space of 6 mil go for a 1st rounder in trades, having $24 mil in cap could have represented 4 low 1sts for a quick rebuild. 

 

And yes, I place that blame more on FA than Benning. 

 

The MG years were good, but I think the worst thing FA and Benning did was try and recapture the MG years by kicking the can down the road. The 2020 UFA fiasco and our JT miller dilemma today represents us paying that price, but I think the worst is still to come with the cascading extensions that are due to hit (Bo this year, Petey next year, Brock after)

 

If only Benning had truly rebuilt one offseason, or waited ONE more year before testing the UFA market (2019 vs 2020) we would be in a much different place. So many if onlys with JB 

 

 

It's also why I'm still cautiously optimistic with JR and Allvin, not because I'm afraid of any competency issues, but because this ownership group is still hovering over the whole thing. I think with JR there's a good shield, but i'm worried about what happens after he leaves.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by DSVII

[canucklehead44]

4 hours ago, DSVII said:

I'll always push back against this. Despite only being allowed one draft offseason to do a partial rebuild/recoup of assets, Gillis gave Benning:

 

Markstrom, Horvat, Tanev (24 years old), Kassian, Hansen, Prime Edler (28 yrs old).

The roster was a 100 pt team that had tradeable value, as evidenced by the later trades of Burrows/Bieksa/Garrison, Benning just chose not to move on from the assets. In fact, this 'no value' roster has still outperformed any of the subsequent teams Benning put together after the Gillis pieces left, despite being coached by 1-2-3-4 Willie.

Also, keep in mind, in his first offseasons, Benning was able to deploy ~$24 mil in cap space with the acquisitions of Miller/Vrbata/Sutter/Sbisa/Dorsett/Prust. Having the flexibility to make moves amounting to 30% of your cap is a great asset regardless of the situation your team is in. In contrast, JR so far has been able to deploy only 6-8% of the cap due to the unmoveable contracts Benning left him and that was partly thanks to Ottawa taking Hamonic off our hands.

Benning inherited a team that was 10th in power rankings in 2014. That's not too shabby considering the were two seasons removed from a president's trophy.

A playoff team that is ranked top 10 in power rankings has tradeable assets.

So in summary Benning started off with:

• A 100+ point playoff team with tradeable assets. (Sedins aside)
• The 6th overall pick (which became Jake Virtanen)
• A lower ranked prospect pool yes, but still had names like Brandon Gaunce, Eddie Lack, Frankie Corrado, Jordan subban Nicklas Jensen and Shinkaruk (*these guys had value at the time that could have been used in a trade)
• A 1G (marky), 1 RHD (Tanev), 1 LHD (Edler), Future Captain and 2C in Horvat, Kassian (his stock was still high back then)
• A tradeable 2C in Kesler that even with the restricted teams list, had assets available that were much better than Sbisa which Benning ultimately valued above a prospect like Shea Theodore or a push for the 10OA (a pro scouting error)
• A farm system that was built from the ground up (Gillis never had control over player deployment and development with the Chicago wolves. The farm system was set up for Benning which he never filled)
• ~$24 million in cap space to deploy after trading Kes (~30% of the cap), in a salary cap world where we see 1 year/ $6 mil cap dumps moved for a 1st this is significant

Benning overall actually had a fantastic start:
 

• He made the playoffs in the first year 
• I was happy with the return he got for Kesler - Bonino actually went on to have a much better career from that point forward and Jared McCann lead his team in both goals and points last season at the age of 25/26
• Jake Virtanen was a big miss but getting McCann, Demko, Tryamkin, and Forsling was a great haul
• Acquired a solid starter (Miller) without losing assets
• Got a second round pick for dumping Garrison who was on the downside of his contract (I think Garrison was good value his first two years but was declining(
• Derek Dorsett was a nice hit for only a 3rd round pick
• This was the year after but also happy he got return for Kevin Bieksa

But then the misses came, namely he managed to somehow downgrade and trade away more picks than acquire during a rebuild which is insane. Also he made some very horrific free agent signs that would continue to handcuff the team even to today. 

 

I think a lot of the issue is impatience - trading a way guys too soon, not developing players properly in Utica and giving them opportunities in the NHL etc. Brendan Gaunce for instance had actually developed into a very reliable 4th liner and was one of our better bottom six players and even after an impressive call-up (3 points +3 67% FO in 3 games) was not given another chance. 

 

One difference I see with the new management is they do seem far more patient and methodical - that was really Benning's downfall. 

 

[iceman64]

On 8/28/2022 at 5:32 AM, IBatch said:

That comment about the macaroni art is priceless.   Can't remember what media guy said "Yzerman (other GMs) is playing 5d chess, while JB is throwing macaroni art  on a plate just to see what will stick"  paraphrased.    THN - the Hockey News was super critical of JB the by about year 3.   Not at the start because with his re-tool mandate he actually did almost the best he could - we had no goalie, he signed Miller, we needed another top six winger - went hard after Iginla, didn't get him, and instead signed Vrbata, the second best forward available at the time.

 

After that though we're increasingly critical of what we were doing.   For 2-3 years.   Then EP arrived and things they stopped.   And after the bubble we're singing his praises.   Think he was 10th in voting that season for GM of the year. Which was his peak lol.   Average marks - average GM.   More or less.   Get that people aren't satisfied, but i'm also going to say that i doubt any GM we picked would of got good marks either. 

 

Team didn't have much of a choice but stick with what they had.    And nobody complained when we finished 7th overall.   2011 was still pretty fresh in our minds same with 2012.   Only two years later!   We went from a non playoff team with locker room issues, back to 7th.   It fooled management including Linden at the time, as well as ownership.   MG did a great job of keeping this team together ... unfortunately, it really wasn't a championship team ... back then 8th seeded then missing entirely after a cup, then 7th seeded LA did it again.   The Sedin team was a wonder during the regular season with Luongo and Schneider.   Without them - well Miller did his best and was more then decent.   But that team was for sure over the hill. 

 

I don't think any GM was going to make this work.   Why?  Because basically we started with all of Horvat and Hutton in the pipe.   Worst 8 years of drafting in club history - and i'd even say worst in league history over any 8 years any team.   Maybe a math wizard could make a study by my money is that we go on top.   And the strange thing, DET and SJ regularly were trading their firsts and seconds over the Nonis MG era ... we traded ONE first.   Thats it.   For Ballard whom we bought out (current cap hit would be over 6 million!).  

 

This team, that JB inherited, had one last hurrah and an 18ish year old Horvat was one of the best playoff performers.   That was MG only parting gift.   Expansion teams under the old rules was about where we stood as far as chances to start a new core lol.   And they got guys like Rick Nash, Kovi, Heatley (Stefan lol) etc.     Horvat is decent ... but nothing like some of the guys those clubs picks got them.   

 

Google worst drafts in Canucks history.  All of the top five, we're in the Nonis/MG era.   MG can be forgiven to a degree.   That team was going for it.   However six years ... COHO (10th overall) and 9th overall Horvat were the only guys to move the needle - and well simply not good enough.    Even with the good-great seasons we had during that era.   Burke and Nonis did the heavy lifting (and just to be fair Nonis also had a top 5 at least all time draft for us too, Schneider, Edler, Brown and Hansen, last draft we've seen any player 3rd and past move the needle).    

 

To me at least, any GM coming in after MG was going to fail.    Even Holland, the cream of the crop for 2 decades, couldn't do it for a 3rd time with Detroit, who is our best comp cycle wise.   Yzerman is cleaning it up.   And Holland is back to his old tricks in EDM. 

IB, first senty last paragraph, no GM could make the Canucks a success after 2012, not just a broken team and no depth, it was contract law too that no GM can get around. 

If it was only as simple as a GM getting to walk in with a clean  slate for trading, somewhat of a farm and pipeline. 

We were the opposite, why people are too dense to have figured that out years ago is beyond me.

 Even when they're told otherwise. 

 And thst doesn't include the even bigger fact of seeing a team get destroyed mentally and physically in a long cup road and broken identity, would you want to run to go sign onto that team? 

 And a small market team as well..

 I guess they keep believing everything thats fed them by the hacks who call themselves media in Vancouver. 

 I'm just happy all that waiting time is over. 

 We're there now, we have somewhat of a pipeline and have enough talent to trade for upgrades and keep getting better.

FINALLY! 

[iceman64]

On 8/28/2022 at 7:42 AM, Fred65 said:

The target for Gillis was diffent than the target for Benning. MG drafting was not good but the team he built was a great team for a number of seasons. His win record I doubt will ever be repeated and he came this close to taking the Cup.  I don't know how many trophies Vcr garnered during his time as GM but it was a lot. Presidents trophy x 2 SC game 7 and he was voted not 10th best GM but el suprimo by his pears. He new the team needed a rebuild as did Torts. Unfortunately ownwership felt they new better. He did leave the team with Markstrom, Horvat, Tanev, Hamhuis amongst others as well as the Sedin tied up on a reasonable contract, that team had one hurrah after he left. And the Benning stepped in to draft the likes of Virtanen and Juolevi.

 

Benning if he was there for another 8 years would never earn the accolades that MG earned.

 

What I HATE is those fans that judge the entire success of the team by it's drafting. I judge the team by success on the ice and winning. I doubt if there will ever be a folly like signing Ericksson to a long term Cap heavy contract, never. That signing hung around Benning like a bad smell for years, never mind the Beagles, Rousell, Tim Schaller was another beauty. JB/FA wasted 8 years of this franchise. I'll say this MG to his detrment was arrogant, super intelligent and too much or Aquaman to handle/endure. JB also fired Gilman and Brackett, they were no yes men and far to smart for him.

I don't follow, you park your car in the garage, it needs a strip down to the frame and parts all the way to the last one. 

 With only the frame left, it's put back together but needs more upgrades for performance, you try to make your own but there's not very many tools to do. High end parts are expensive and not always available so you upgrade as you go and manufacture anything else. 

 Ok so the car runs good but could run a lot better and your not going to win any drag races from it but you could take out most cars on the road less Ferrari etc etc.. until you can have the same parts they run on. 

 Expecting success is fine but tempering with realism is where the line gets drawn. 

 Even teams that rebuild fail and fail again until the right balance is found and some never do. 

 Considering where we were in 2012.. I didn't like the wait but we're almost back to 2012 now but we're still tweaking and as close as we are, all we need is more depth and it seasoned at least 2-3 seasons in Abby worth unless it's deemed ok.

 We're fine... 

 

[NHL97OneTimer]

5 hours ago, canucklehead44 said:

Benning overall actually had a fantastic start:
 

• He made the playoffs in the first year 
• I was happy with the return he got for Kesler - Bonino actually went on to have a much better career from that point forward and Jared McCann lead his team in both goals and points last season at the age of 25/26
• Jake Virtanen was a big miss but getting McCann, Demko, Tryamkin, and Forsling was a great haul
• Acquired a solid starter (Miller) without losing assets
• Got a second round pick for dumping Garrison who was on the downside of his contract (I think Garrison was good value his first two years but was declining(
• Derek Dorsett was a nice hit for only a 3rd round pick
• This was the year after but also happy he got return for Kevin Bieksa

But then the misses came, namely he managed to somehow downgrade and trade away more picks than acquire during a rebuild which is insane. Also he made some very horrific free agent signs that would continue to handcuff the team even to today. 

 

I think a lot of the issue is impatience - trading a way guys too soon, not developing players properly in Utica and giving them opportunities in the NHL etc. Brendan Gaunce for instance had actually developed into a very reliable 4th liner and was one of our better bottom six players and even after an impressive call-up (3 points +3 67% FO in 3 games) was not given another chance. 

 

One difference I see with the new management is they do seem far more patient and methodical - that was really Benning's downfall. 

 

There were good parts to JB, some of which you have highlighted.  But the single largest thing that I will fault him for is not embracing a bigger administrative team with more eyes and ears on the situation.  It seemed like he was trying to do too much on his own.  Trust issues, not getting his own way, not sure what happened there.  

 

PA and JR are doing the exact opposite and I'm pretty happy with that.  This year will mark the first season with their roster changes.  I'm excited for these changes.  It's hard not to look at last season as a coaching change turnaround but this year will have some new blood out there.

 

Lastly....I think it's hilarious that there are management rankings.  So pointless.  Let's just see some silverware next June.

Edited August 30, 2022 by NHL97OneTimer

[Viper007]

16 minutes ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

There were good parts to JB, some of which you have highlighted.  But the single largest thing that I will fault him for is not embracing a bigger administrative team with more eyes and ears on the situation.  It seemed like he was trying to do too much on his own.  Trust issues, not getting his own way, not sure what happened there.  

 

PA and JR are doing the exact opposite and I'm pretty happy with that.  This year will mark the first season with their roster changes.  I'm excited for these changes.  It's hard not to look at last season as a coaching change turnaround but this year will have some new blood out there.

 

Lastly....I think it's hilarious that there are management rankings.  So pointless.  Let's just see some silverware next June.

We don't know if JB was allowed to make a bigger administrative team.  If he was, he screwed that up way too much.  But I think it was an ownership decision to be cheap.  Especially during COVID.

[NHL97OneTimer]

1 minute ago, Viper007 said:

We don't know if JB was allowed to make a bigger administrative team.  If he was, he screwed that up way too much.  But I think it was an ownership decision to be cheap.  Especially during COVID.

Linden, Brackett, ???

[spook007]

6 hours ago, DSVII said:

A cheers back to you!

 

Ours isn't much better right now haha but yes I will agree it was on the lower end of the spectrum, but it's wasn't worthless. Gaunce/Subban/Shinkaruk/Corrado still had value you could trade. Besides, with the draft position Benning inherited from Gillis, we add Jake and McCann to that. There were other teams with less than worthless pools, something could have been done with that from an asset management standpoint.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2108713-re-ranking-every-teams-prospect-pool-after-2014-nhl-draft

 

I think we can apply the benefit of hindsight here, at that time no one knew about Kass' issues, think we still could have got something for him. I still remember the hype at that time around him as being a potential Tyler Bertuzzi. Diminished value yes but value nonetheless, i hated the hodgson trade for the record although with hindsight i see it had to be done.

 

I think the fact that Anaheim traded Theodore to Vegas two years later to keep Manson meant that he was a moveable asset. Benning wanted an nhl ready D in Sbisa (that alone is debatable) as well as Bonino so we had to settle for the 24th pick. 

 

Anaheim was making a push for the cup, who knows? Maybe rather than targeting their roster depth in Bonino/Sbisa, we ask a bit more on the farm in a D man it could have worked. But we'll never know. 

 

But considering Shea Theodore was moved due to expansion draft considerations and Anaheim chose not to value him, I think it was within the realm of possibility

 

Their inaugural season was 2013-14, under Gillis

 

https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2013/06/14/introducing-the-utica-comets-of-the-ahl/

 

Yep, the cap itself represents blank slate potential. We've done to death how Benning has deployed that cap space, but I think it's huge that Gillis gave Benning a flexibility that he did not pass onto his successors. 

 

I think the fact that Jason Garrison was traded day one, and eventually Hamhuis/Burrows/Bieksa had expressed or had waived their NTCs years down the road makes the narrative of the 'immoveable' NTCs a bit shaky. For me at least. Besides the NTC deals were signed with cap friendly hits to make the 2011 run. A top 6 player or Top 4 d on a low cap hit is always appreciated by other teams, NTC or not.

 

As to the NTC itself, Garrison himself also said NTC or not, players want to play in teams where they feel wanted.

 

If you ask me, what ties the hands of a GM more than an NTC/NMC is the cap hit. Dickinson and Poolman don't need NTCs just because of the term and hit for their production. Hopefully we can move them like we did with Hamonic!

 

Again, cap space is potential, not here to discuss what Benning did with Eriksson (that can be an entire forum haha) but considering we've seen cap space of 6 mil go for a 1st rounder in trades, having $24 mil in cap could have represented 4 low 1sts for a quick rebuild. 

 

And yes, I place that blame more on FA than Benning. 

 

The MG years were good, but I think the worst thing FA and Benning did was try and recapture the MG years by kicking the can down the road. The 2020 UFA fiasco and our JT miller dilemma today represents us paying that price, but I think the worst is still to come with the cascading extensions that are due to hit (Bo this year, Petey next year, Brock after)

 

If only Benning had truly rebuilt one offseason, or waited ONE more year before testing the UFA market (2019 vs 2020) we would be in a much different place. So many if onlys with JB 

 

 

It's also why I'm still cautiously optimistic with JR and Allvin, not because I'm afraid of any competency issues, but because this ownership group is still hovering over the whole thing. I think with JR there's a good shield, but i'm worried about what happens after he leaves.

 

 

Starting from the bottom I'm cautious regarding this management group. I want to see, where this is heading, before I get fully behind it...  are we going to be a test rat again, once JR leaves?

 

The Miller issue is a good problem to have. Either way we won't lose? Only question is how to we win the most? By keeping him or by dealing him? It can even be debated, if running with the horses, would be worth it, even if he walks afterwards, as his cap hit will be freed, but that would be the lesser win of the 3 options.

 

As for whether NTC/NMC or cap hit ties your hand the most, I still think its a toss of a coin. If you NTC/NMC players wants to, they can direct your hand (limit your return), just like lack of cap space can (and likely will) limit your return in trades.

And yes players on low cap hits are always interesting to other teams..
 

In hindsight, yes we should have stripped it bare instead of signing Erikssen... would have given us a bigger prospect pool and maybe the two years of extra suffering, would have been benificial bearing in mind, we were still floundering at the bottom ( rotten lotto luck didn't help neither).

 

As for Theodore... hmmm. Timing is everything, so who knows if he was in play? Maybe, at the time Ducks didn't want to include him for Kesler... Maybe they would have, if Kesler hadn't tied Canucks hand. 
 But yes Benning wanted a ready D and Sbisa came and didn't do anything for us.... so a fail undoubtedly. But again, maybe that was the best offer Benning could get for Kesler?

Kassian.... 

Think like you, most of us hated the Hodgson trade, like we also hated to see Kassian moved, but knowing the facts afterwards, it was trades, that had to be made. 
If Kassian hadn't had his demons at the time, he wouldn't and shouldn't have been traded at the time. He was exactly, what a young core would have needed, like Tkachuk etc...

 

Finally, our prospect pool...

I called it worthless, because nothing came to it... trades likely would have been Karlsson for Dahlen like, hoping to better them... Dane Fox and Shinkaruk were the two shining lights together with Jensen. 
Our prospect pool atm it probably on par, or slightly better, but that has more to do with the average age of the team being lowered by the influx of draftees... 

Ee are now without any doubt in a far better place going forward, than we were, when Benning took over, despite the team winning the President trophee... 

Had the Sedins not suddenly nose dived like jumping off a cliff, it could maybe have lasted a little longer, but with them being twins and loving VCR, the likelyhood of them being traded was zero. 
JR/PA has a lot of tradeble assets, if they want to blow it up...again... far better than what Benning had. 
QH, Petey, Bo, Miller, Podz, Hogs (to a certain extend), etc are all valuable pieces. And movable i'd include a few more, so their hand isn't tied like Bennings unless FA says no to anything. (This is not to say they should be moved btw...).

[Viper007]

1 hour ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

Linden, Brackett, ???

Linden was Benning's Boss.  JB didn't have a decision in what happened to Linden.  As for Brackett, he wanted full autonomy with the draft.  JB didn't want to give him that.  So they parted ways.

[King Loui]

3 hours ago, iceman64 said:

IB, first senty last paragraph, no GM could make the Canucks a success after 2012, not just a broken team and no depth, it was contract law too that no GM can get around. 

If it was only as simple as a GM getting to walk in with a clean  slate for trading, somewhat of a farm and pipeline. 

We were the opposite, why people are too dense to have figured that out years ago is beyond me.

 Even when they're told otherwise. 

 And thst doesn't include the even bigger fact of seeing a team get destroyed mentally and physically in a long cup road and broken identity, would you want to run to go sign onto that team? 

 And a small market team as well..

 I guess they keep believing everything thats fed them by the hacks who call themselves media in Vancouver. 

 I'm just happy all that waiting time is over. 

 We're there now, we have somewhat of a pipeline and have enough talent to trade for upgrades and keep getting better.

FINALLY! 

We're where now exactly?  We're a middling team who in the last 3 years have had one 1st round pick and one 2nd round pick.  Our prospect pipeline still sucks after 8 years of finishing bottom 5 continuously.  How do you suck for 8 years straight and still have a bottom 3, maybe bottom 5 prospect pipeline?   All Benning did was spend $$$ desperately trying to gain playoff experience and he couldn't do it.  It was the definition of a failure, whether it was his direction or Aqualini's, it was a failure....that's why he got fired.  You can ice an NHL roster without spending right up to the cap, the teams we were on par with during this tenure spent way less money than us for the same results.  

We have zero prospects to trade and any roster player that would be traded would just leave a giant hole in the lineup