J.I.A.H.N Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 It is always a game of "IF's" for us fans, no matter who we are. Just opinions. I saying that, my feeling is "we" LOL, could have our rebuild done in 2-3 years, "IF" we do it right. Again, just my ill informed, over inflated opinion. Please give me yours! LOL So, let's get to the point.............. Today we stand to pick 8th and 40 OA in the 2023 NHL draft "IF" we were to move Miller, Horvat, Boeser, and Garland.....we save 25 million off the books for the 2023-2024 season. (keep that in the back of your mind for later in this post) Let's just say, we get the Following.............(For illustration purposes only!) Relax! 1. Horvat........................Drouin (UFA at season's end) Mailloux and Montreal's 2023 1st (I suggest it would be around 15th OA with the addition of Horvat to Montreal's lineup) 2. Miller...........................Let's just say, it will look something like Chytl, NY Rangers 2023 1st and Lundkvist (later traded to Dallas for Dallas 2023 1st and 2023 4th) 3. Boeser........................a 2nd and a 3rd with $2,000,000 retained a year (remember the 25 million saved earlier......relax! Let's put these trade assets in 2024...just for kicks! 4. Garland......................a late 1st at the draft. Now, I have heard, "No more retention" but this should not be the only retention, as while the above picks and prospects are maturing, we should be buying bad contracts, and possibly a UFA that fits our rebuild. So what do we have after these moves? Well, first off, we have a bottom 5 team, BUT, we have a #1 center, a #1 LHD, and a #1 Goalie, who is recovering. Plus a decent backup. These are key to our rebuild. So let just use the acquired prospects and picks and see what we have., including our own. (again for illustration purposes only!) Vancouver 2023 1st - 5th OA Montreal 2023 1st - 15th OA NY Rangers 2023 1st - 20th OA Garland's 2023 1st - 26th OA Vancouver's 2023 2nd - 37 OA Vancouver's 2023 3rd - 69th OA In a deep draft this is incredible, and it by it's self, would be enough to complete a rebuild...............but it does not stop! There is 2024 - draft Vancouver's 2024 1st OA (top 3 to 5 OA) Boeser's 2024 2nd (we will say 50th OA for arguments sake) Vancouver's 2024 3rd - 69thish Boeser's 2024 3rd This is not to discount any 2023 or 2024 Cap dumps, we may take. Cap dumps should always be 1 or none, in terms of years, that is to keep Cap space fluid, and ready to use. Now, I would argue that in 2025 -2026 (3rd year of rebuild, we should be coming out of it, and have a 10 to 12th OA pick in the NHL draft. Note* that all 2023 picks will be 20 years old by the 2025 draft. 20 years old should start competing for spots, top 5 picks should be starting to star...........at least Hughes and Pettersson did! In the summer of 2025, I would use all available cap space that would be given to me the GM to start buying UFA's that fit in the holes. I would also be looking at trading away a 2026 1st, for a hole..........understanding that we would still be looking like a bottom 12 team, until signings and trades. I would have sign Kuzmenko to a 5 year deal to go on Pettersson's line. (Note his goals come from deep in the crease area.....his timing is crazy!) So what do we have? Well, first off, I am looking for 3 of , Lekkermaki, Pettersson, Karlsson, McDonaugh, Klimovich, Rathbone, Filip Johansson, Truscott or Jurmo, to jump in and make the team.........maybe 3????? I am looking for Podkolzin, Hoglander and Lockwood to make the team So in 3 years.........we hopefully have? 2025-2026 Roster Prospects Kuzmeko........................Pettersson....................Lekkermaki 2023 - 1st (20th OA) ...............................possible RHD McDonaugh.................2023 1st 5th OA..............Podkolzin 2023 - 1st (26th OA)...............................possible Goalie/Forward 2023 1st 15 OA.................Karlsson.....................Hoglander 2023 - 2nd (37th OA)..............................possible Forward/Goalie xxxxxxx.............................Aman..........................Lockwood 2023 - 3rd (69th OA)...............................Dman Boeser 2024 - 2nd...................................Dman Vancouver 2024 - 3rd (69 OA).................Goalie Boeser's 2024 -3rd Vancouver's 2025 -1st 12 OA).................Forward Hughes......................Mailloux LHD -Elias Pettersson TBD OEL...........................2024 1st OA RW - Klimovich..........not worried about this year, next year he has to show something Rathbone...................Johansson LHD - Truscott............Defensive Lefthand Dman, plays on the first unit at Michigan (NCAA) xxxxxxx......................Livingston (I hope!) LHD - Jurmo..............TBD C - Zlodeyev..............This guy is a sleeper and "IF" he comes over makes the team Demko C - Karlsson...............Next year is his prove me year Martin G - Silvos....................Needs to continue to progress as he is doing Do not focus on the trades as in who, focus on the trades as returns (Meaning it could be another team and another return, but similar. My point is, that with the return of said players, we gain valuable assets, which in turn fills in the assets holes. Further to this exercise, is the fact that there will be returns from cap dumps (Hopefully) and there will be UFA signings to fill in further holes that do not go as plan. I do not believe a team can be competitive with just young draft picks, so yes, there will be UFA signings, but strategical ones that are generally short term and there to fill in for prospect not yet developed. This can only be done "IF" assets are moved. There are many variations of this type of asset management. But the point is, that rebuilds do not have to be long, if there is a plan, and if management and ownership are all on the same page. I might also add, that with Petterson, Hughes, and Demko, we have the 3 most important pieces there already. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solinar Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 In order to be a contender, you must have key personnel in key spots. You need a true #1 and dominant centre, you need an elite #1 defenseman, it would help to have a good to great goaltender, and you need cost controlled up and coming impact rfa's. It isn't about necessarily having just a dominant lineup, but you have reinforcements in the pipeline coming up to either support or supplant, allowing for the ability to allow for key asset acquisition trades. I look at this team, and we basically have everything on the main club, and nothing that turns the dial in the pipeline, other than maybe Lekkerimaki and Pettersson 2.0. So when you size up our team right now, which isn't even good enough to really be in the playoff group, let alone contender status, with little in the way to supplement them, we have to really look at what we're going to do going forward. And that could mean a soft reset of our window and core group. Benning spiked the ball in our face in his last moves to try gamble our way into the playoffs. The TSN turning point was the OEL trade. Garland and OEL, for the price, have set us back into full rebuild mode. Oof. So, trading Miller, Horvat, and anyone not Pettersson, Demko, and Hughes is really on the table. And that'll mean we probably see salary coming back, at least expiring salary. That means we probably shouldn't push the chips in for playoffs. And we most definitely shouldn't settle for another season of 'almost there' where we are herculean in our efforts to fall short, keeping us in the bubble of mediocrity drafting wise. While I don't agree with some of the trades above, I do agree with the thinking behind it. We need to discuss it, we need to gauge the fans reaction, and while we may not see the moves we put out there in conjecture, it wouldn't hurt to make it known, that the fan base demands more than what we're seeing out of a very inconsistent and generally lacksadaisacal approach that has gotten us to where we are right now. Pick a vision, and lets communicate it, and make it happen! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solinar Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 As for salary retention, if you have vision, and you are committed, that is a weapon in the tool kit that must and should be utilized. It will up the return, and I'd rather have 3 million in cap space than be stuck with Myers at 6 million when I can trade him for an actual asset at 3 at the tdl. Jeez, oh no, when I'm actually going into a soft reset, I don't have 3 million for a year, but an asset instead of paying to get that extra 3! The salary cap is a limit, not the minimum. Stop spending up to the cap for no reason and not having the space available when you need assets to weaponize cap space. God, where would we be if we had just ate the last year of those bad 3 contracts and had a ton of cap space when everyone needed help. Go take a look at Arizona and their plethora of picks and assets. smh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solinar Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 (edited) As for the proposals, I suggest Boesser and Horvat, half retained to Columbus, Buffalo, or Dallas. And load up with prospects and picks, plus salary coming back on expiring deals. From Columbus I'd say Horvat and Boesser for Jiricek, a 2023 1st and 2024 2nd, and Korpisalo for Martin while we're at it. Nyquist comes back as salary. Possibly Voracek. Buffalo, we offer Horvat who immediately makes their team better by allowing them to slot him in at 2nd. I want either Savoie or Ostlund. I'll throw in Rathbone and next years 2nd if I can get both. Dallas, Dallas could be fun. Boesser for Khudobin and Gurianov, and then we get into the meat. I want Stankoven and Lundqist. I'll even throw around a 2024 3rd. OoOoo maybe some trading of the 7th round picks clubs like to do. Edited December 19, 2022 by Solinar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijibo Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 (edited) Montreal is not a fit for Horvat. First off he’s UFA and it appears he’s going to test the market (hence the reason his agent isn’t allowed to talk to interested teams about an extension) Second. Cap issues. They need to extend Caufield. They won’t have an extra $9m laying around to pay him Third. Suzuki is their 1C and the team captain. Dach was acquired to be the 2C. Paying Horvat $9m to be the 2C (which they can’t afford) doesn’t make sense Fourth Horvat’s age doesn’t fit with the young core they’re building. By the time they’re potentially in a position to contend he’ll be past his prime and likely and anchor contract Fifth . Despite your prognostication, Montreal is currently picking 9th OA and adding Horvat likely won’t make that big a difference. They’re still dressing 4 rookie defencemen. Paying a top 10 pick plus a promising big RHD while in the midst of a rebuild makes zero sense. In fact it’s a great way to destroy the rebuild. Edited December 19, 2022 by qwijibo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTramFan Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 If we are selling... I don't think Garland gets you a 1st (not even a late one). But we should trade him and take whatever we can get for him. Boeser has very little value currently due to his contract. I would hold onto him and hope that his value increases (he finds some form) and he may net some good returns at the TDL on his final contract year. We shouldn't trade Pettersson, Hughes or Demko (not that you suggested that). And I can't see any reason to trade Hogs and Podz. I think these players will have value at the upcoming TDL: Horvat Kuzmenko Schenn Miller ...yes even Miller will have value but it will be a difficult job to find a destination for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijibo Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 7 minutes ago, BigTramFan said: If we are selling... I don't think Garland gets you a 1st (not even a late one). But we should trade him and take whatever we can get for him. Boeser has very little value currently due to his contract. I would hold onto him and hope that his value increases (he finds some form) and he may net some good returns at the TDL on his final contract year. We shouldn't trade Pettersson, Hughes or Demko (not that you suggested that). And I can't see any reason to trade Hogs and Podz. I think these players will have value at the upcoming TDL: Horvat Kuzmenko Schenn Miller ...yes even Miller will have value but it will be a difficult job to find a destination for him. I think Horvat, Kuzmenko and Schenn will be moved. But the ship has sailed on moving Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTramFan Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 40 minutes ago, qwijibo said: I think Horvat, Kuzmenko and Schenn will be moved. But the ship has sailed on moving Miller. I agree. But they should try to move him. I think the NYI would be interested. Something like: To NYI: Miller To VAN: Bailey + a 2nd round pick Basically just to move Miller's contract, which has no place on a rebuilding team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 31 minutes ago, BigTramFan said: I agree. But they should try to move him. I think the NYI would be interested. Something like: To NYI: Miller To VAN: Bailey + a 2nd round pick Basically just to move Miller's contract, which has no place on a rebuilding team. We cannot move Miller or OEL without retaining a significant amount of salary. It is going to cost us dearly. We would be struggling for over 7-8 years at a sever cap disadvantage. Together they are $15 mil. We would have to retain at least $3 mil on each skater, and we would have to believe we can do better with $9 mil than keep them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTramFan Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 7 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said: We cannot move Miller or OEL without retaining a significant amount of salary. It is going to cost us dearly. We would be struggling for over 7-8 years at a sever cap disadvantage. Together they are $15 mil. We would have to retain at least $3 mil on each skater, and we would have to believe we can do better with $9 mil than keep them. I disagree about needing to retain salary on Miller. He has averaged 0.95 pts/game over the last 5 seasons (including this one) and is worth his new contract. There's just no point in having him on a rebuilding team as he will be declining when we are ready to compete. He would be a great fit on the NY Islanders and they need some offense. I would not retain a cent on him. But I would consider taking back some short term dead cap to make a deal happen. I can't see us trading OEL. He has a full NMC to start with. It wouldn't be worth adding the sweeteners that it would require to move him. In a rebuild, cap space should not be a concern, so you just let him play out the next 4 seasons and he is essentially out the door when we are ready to compete. Similar to Myers. If we can't get any assets back, then why trade him. May as well just let him play out his contract and walk. Don't spend ANY assets on moving players out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 I don't think it's an if. It's a when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 13 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said: I don't think it's an if. It's a when. I sure hope you’re right, but I don’t think our owner will allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberz21 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 I know everything we do are big IFs, but come on now, building a 2025-2026 with 2023 1st 5th overall and 15th overall in the lineup is not even speculation or projection, that's pure fantasy. You'd have better chance of winning the lottery than getting 50% of the projected 2025-2026 lineup correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komodo0921 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said: It is always a game of "IF's" for us fans, no matter who we are. Just opinions. I saying that, my feeling is "we" LOL, could have our rebuild done in 2-3 years, "IF" we do it right. Again, just my ill informed, over inflated opinion. Please give me yours! LOL So, let's get to the point.............. Today we stand to pick 8th and 40 OA in the 2023 NHL draft "IF" we were to move Miller, Horvat, Boeser, and Garland.....we save 25 million off the books for the 2023-2024 season. (keep that in the back of your mind for later in this post) Let's just say, we get the Following.............(For illustration purposes only!) Relax! 1. Horvat........................Drouin (UFA at season's end) Mailloux and Montreal's 2023 1st (I suggest it would be around 15th OA with the addition of Horvat to Montreal's lineup) 2. Miller...........................Let's just say, it will look something like Chytl, NY Rangers 2023 1st and Lundkvist (later traded to Dallas for Dallas 2023 1st and 2023 4th) 3. Boeser........................a 2nd and a 3rd with $2,000,000 retained a year (remember the 25 million saved earlier......relax! Let's put these trade assets in 2024...just for kicks! 4. Garland......................a late 1st at the draft. Now, I have heard, "No more retention" but this should not be the only retention, as while the above picks and prospects are maturing, we should be buying bad contracts, and possibly a UFA that fits our rebuild. So what do we have after these moves? Well, first off, we have a bottom 5 team, BUT, we have a #1 center, a #1 LHD, and a #1 Goalie, who is recovering. Plus a decent backup. These are key to our rebuild. So let just use the acquired prospects and picks and see what we have., including our own. (again for illustration purposes only!) Vancouver 2023 1st - 5th OA Montreal 2023 1st - 15th OA NY Rangers 2023 1st - 20th OA Garland's 2023 1st - 26th OA Vancouver's 2023 2nd - 37 OA Vancouver's 2023 3rd - 69th OA In a deep draft this is incredible, and it by it's self, would be enough to complete a rebuild...............but it does not stop! There is 2024 - draft Vancouver's 2024 1st OA (top 3 to 5 OA) Boeser's 2024 2nd (we will say 50th OA for arguments sake) Vancouver's 2024 3rd - 69thish Boeser's 2024 3rd This is not to discount any 2023 or 2024 Cap dumps, we may take. Cap dumps should always be 1 or none, in terms of years, that is to keep Cap space fluid, and ready to use. Now, I would argue that in 2025 -2026 (3rd year of rebuild, we should be coming out of it, and have a 10 to 12th OA pick in the NHL draft. Note* that all 2023 picks will be 20 years old by the 2025 draft. 20 years old should start competing for spots, top 5 picks should be starting to star...........at least Hughes and Pettersson did! In the summer of 2025, I would use all available cap space that would be given to me the GM to start buying UFA's that fit in the holes. I would also be looking at trading away a 2026 1st, for a hole..........understanding that we would still be looking like a bottom 12 team, until signings and trades. I would have sign Kuzmenko to a 5 year deal to go on Pettersson's line. (Note his goals come from deep in the crease area.....his timing is crazy!) So what do we have? Well, first off, I am looking for 3 of , Lekkermaki, Pettersson, Karlsson, McDonaugh, Klimovich, Rathbone, Filip Johansson, Truscott or Jurmo, to jump in and make the team.........maybe 3????? I am looking for Podkolzin, Hoglander and Lockwood to make the team So in 3 years.........we hopefully have? 2025-2026 Roster Prospects Kuzmeko........................Pettersson....................Lekkermaki 2023 - 1st (20th OA) ...............................possible RHD McDonaugh.................2023 1st 5th OA..............Podkolzin 2023 - 1st (26th OA)...............................possible Goalie/Forward 2023 1st 15 OA.................Karlsson.....................Hoglander 2023 - 2nd (37th OA)..............................possible Forward/Goalie xxxxxxx.............................Aman..........................Lockwood 2023 - 3rd (69th OA)...............................Dman Boeser 2024 - 2nd...................................Dman Vancouver 2024 - 3rd (69 OA).................Goalie Boeser's 2024 -3rd Vancouver's 2025 -1st 12 OA).................Forward Hughes......................Mailloux LHD -Elias Pettersson TBD OEL...........................2024 1st OA RW - Klimovich..........not worried about this year, next year he has to show something Rathbone...................Johansson LHD - Truscott............Defensive Lefthand Dman, plays on the first unit at Michigan (NCAA) xxxxxxx......................Livingston (I hope!) LHD - Jurmo..............TBD C - Zlodeyev..............This guy is a sleeper and "IF" he comes over makes the team Demko C - Karlsson...............Next year is his prove me year Martin G - Silvos....................Needs to continue to progress as he is doing Do not focus on the trades as in who, focus on the trades as returns (Meaning it could be another team and another return, but similar. My point is, that with the return of said players, we gain valuable assets, which in turn fills in the assets holes. Further to this exercise, is the fact that there will be returns from cap dumps (Hopefully) and there will be UFA signings to fill in further holes that do not go as plan. I do not believe a team can be competitive with just young draft picks, so yes, there will be UFA signings, but strategical ones that are generally short term and there to fill in for prospect not yet developed. This can only be done "IF" assets are moved. There are many variations of this type of asset management. But the point is, that rebuilds do not have to be long, if there is a plan, and if management and ownership are all on the same page. I might also add, that with Petterson, Hughes, and Demko, we have the 3 most important pieces there already. Imo, one of the teams that could offer the greatest return for Bo is the NY Rangers. Brayden Schneider, Brennan Othmann, and their 1st rounder 2023. We would also retain 50% of Bo's salary. NY would have the space to re-sign him, long-term. Hughes, Schneider would be a pretty effective top pair. Edited December 19, 2022 by komodo0921 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 3 hours ago, komodo0921 said: Imo, one of the teams that could offer the greatest return for Bo is the NY Rangers. Brayden Schneider, Brennan Othmann, and their 1st rounder 2023. We would also retain 50% of Bo's salary. NY would have the space to re-sign him, long-term. Hughes, Schneider would be a pretty effective top pair. He looks like an ideal target…and he could be mentored by fellow SK native Schenn on how to partner well with Hughes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 SCOUTING REPORT Has the size, skating ability, right-handed shot, poise and defensive chops to play big minutes at the National Hockey League level (for a very long time). Does not have high-end offensive acumen but that does not prevent him from logging a ton of ice time in all game situations. Also displays a physical side to his game that helps his team win hockey games. He may not be the prototypical "modern-day" defenseman, but NHL teams cannot win Stanley Cups without his type. Long Range Potential:Big, solid shutdown defenseman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boknows08 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 I heard Winnipeg lost Wheeler for over a month, Ehlers and Appleton on the ir, also thought they were looking for a middle 6 winger already, maybe something like Garland for Salomonsson, 24 2nd we would have to retain this year to make the cap work. I know mgmt doesn’t want to but they will have to with the amount of cap they want to clear. Went to the game against the Jets and thought Garland was our best forward. Not saying much though lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijibo Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 30 minutes ago, Boknows08 said: I heard Winnipeg lost Wheeler for over a month, Ehlers and Appleton on the ir, also thought they were looking for a middle 6 winger already, maybe something like Garland for Salomonsson, 24 2nd we would have to retain this year to make the cap work. I know mgmt doesn’t want to but they will have to with the amount of cap they want to clear. Went to the game against the Jets and thought Garland was our best forward. Not saying much though lol. You can’t retain for just 1 year. It’s the entire contract or nothing. So is it worth it to retain for 4 years? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boknows08 Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 29 minutes ago, qwijibo said: You can’t retain for just 1 year. It’s the entire contract or nothing. So is it worth it to retain for 4 years? Nope lol. Had a total brain fart. Maybe a trade meant for the summer. Can’t see us getting a 1st for Garland. Was trying to think of something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 Shame is we have so many pieces in or close to their prime right now, we could rebuild SO well. Look at how Chicago is going to do it - they crashed, salvaged lots of 1sts, won a couple of Cups, now are deep-diving again, going to get Bedard or Fantilli and build a new core around them within the span of a decade, and probably make another dynasty. When they rebuild, they do it hard. They'll trade away Kane and/or Toews, take on some bad contracts and load up on picks at the perfect timing. Our ownership don't have the balls to do this but it'd be worth it. Over 20-30 years they may end up with 3-4 cups. Right now the Canucks have never been more primed for a rebuild. We could do so many different types - a hard rebuild where we trade EVERYONE (including Petey, Hughes and Demko) where we could acquire so many 1sts over the next 3-4 years, or a relatively fast rebuild where we build around Petey and Hughes and flip all the guys in their prime. The problem is - who can we move though. We can move just about anyone if we're taking bad contracts back, any contending team would love that. I doubt we can move OEL or Pearson in the end - it'd cost too much, but we'd have to eventually move OEL because his contract really anchors us for any sort of rebuild in the future, so it'd probably be worth flipping a 2nd or so to get rid of him (one of the many 2nds we could acquire). Boeser could go to any team, take on a bad 5-6M contract back, and score us a 1st at the very least, plus maybe a B-grade prospect. Bo could go anywhere and land us a 1st, prospect and later pick and we could take on some bad money to make the prospect better. Miller would have to return us a bad contract, no-one's touching 8M but if we take a good 5-6M back, we could surely score a 1st and decent prospect. Garland could easily nab us a 2nd. I think Myers can score us a 2nd as well but we'd have to take some cap on. Schenn can score us a 2nd, if we package him with say Garland and take some cap back I think that's easily a 1st and 2nd coming back (probably from a contender so mind you late 1st and 2nd) We'd basically end up with a team of bad contracts but so many picks and decent prospects, so we'll probably still lose the same amount of games as we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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