[PGT] St. Louis Blues at Vancouver Canucks | Dec. 19, 2022

[ShawnAntoski]

1 minute ago, Fanuck said:

To me the plan has been clear for years,  ownership is calling the shots, and they will sacrifice the long-term viability of the club for the hope of 2 playoff games at home.  How anyone could argue otherwise after watching for the past 10 years is beyond me?  What's been going on speaks for itself don't you think?

https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/569255

 

And we all know, the yearly results...

[EternalCanuckFan]

I haven't been following the Canucks as closely this year as it's been generally disappointing to watch them so far this season.  Below are a few observations generally about the Canucks and the league right now though:

1. Scoring is up across the league. Far more point per game players right now, for whatever reason. The rules have changed to be more permissive towards scorers. Defenders are having a tougher time in general, and goalies too. It's getting harder for defenders and goalies to keep up long stretches of solid play.
2. This trend seems to have amplified both the good and the bad parts of the Canucks' on ice performance with an added twist that their goaltending isn't as good this season. They are scoring more which you would think would mean more wins, but they are also giving up more goals. Are they vastly worse than last season? No. Are they any better?  Also no, perhaps slightly worse if only because their goaltending has not been good.
3. While the Canucks are bad, they also possess sufficient talent (particularly at forward) to win at least some games, especially now that scoring is up across the league. The issue is that they still have long standing roster construction issues. More importantly however, it simply feels like they have lost the spirit to play. Anything negative seems to have the high likelihood of causing the team to shut down, and it seems worse when they play at home. Blown leads, lack of pushback, etc.
4. The team probably needs both a personnel and culture change. Those usually go hand in hand, but might point to a need to dig deeper. This is where trading someone like Horvat would probably make a lot of sense. Depending on how things go with EP and Hughes, the team may need to enter a period where it forges a new identity which will hopefully also be accompanied by the infusion of new personnel.
5. This is just an initial thought - while I loved the era of the Sedins, Luongo, Bieksa, Burr, and Kesler, I wonder if too much has been made of living up to that culture? Bo was literally passed the captaincy by Henrik, and I recall hearing frequent rhetoric about Bo carrying on the leadership legacy of the Sedins (IIRC, he's the last remaining player who played with the Sedins). Maybe what the team needs is to forge a new identity that better matches its core players now? 
6. I have been wanting a rebuild for a long time. It has been nice to see EP and Hughes develop well, but the concern with their development has been that the Canucks might waste their best years as the core of the team if they didn't rebuild effectively around them. Do they even want to stick around to be the "veteran core" moving forward to provide the Canucks a foundation to build on? I suspect Benning made the OEL deal as one his final attempts at rebuilding around EP and Hughes, despite a lot of red flags about what doing so would cost the Canucks both in the short and long term if it didn't work out. Considering EP's current contract expires after next season, it feels like the Canucks are about to realize that issue soon, whatever happens with Horvat, Miller, Boeser, etc. If EP holds out with a trade demand or re-signs without giving up any UFA years, then this team's window for contention is going to be completely up in the air.
7. As a fan, I think the most frustrating thing to see is management either do nothing, more of the same, and/or contradictory things. Re-signing Miller can be defensible but doesn't speak well to having a plan if management really thinks that EP is the only untouchable and may have begun actively shopping other players. Right now it's hard to believe management has much of a plan, and if they did have a plan, then it doesn't seem like it was a good one if they are making major changes already.
8. I'll still cheer for the Canucks but it's honestly painful to watch games right now. It's been many years now where the main source of joy in following the Canucks has been watching prospects develop, particularly EP and Hughes. I suspect that's what I'll continue to focus on even if the current pipeline isn't particularly well stocked.

Edited December 20, 2022 by EternalCanuckFan

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, smithers joe said:

on the merrick show this morning, jeff and elliot said schenn could garner a first. you can't turn that down can you?

Schenn is great but you take a 1st, even a later one, and run.

 

2 hours ago, Maginator said:

No. Trading 3 top 6 players (Garland, Boeser, Horvat) and potentially 2 top 4 defenceman ( Myers, OEL) isn't "finishing touches". Nowhere did I say this will turn around by next year and we will be a playoff team. I can see in 2-3 years time us getting there though.

 

I'm not going to knock management for the Boeser deal. Like I said in my post there were intangibles that could have effected his game last year (dad, TG). I don't think anyone in their right mind would have just let Boeser walk to Ufa as an unqualified RFA. Unfortunately we were handcuffed by his QO, courtesy of Benning.

 

Then Miller, I also don't think anyone in their right mind would have walked into this season without a deal for him after coming off 99 points. 80-90% of this board was happy with the signing... It's funny how quickly people turn.

 

Add-on: I think Alvin and Rutherford haven't been alluding to a quick "finishing touches" turnaround either. What I've gathered from Alvin is he's going to make moves to continue to get younger, and build for the future.

 

Just because they don't want to sell the entire team and go full Edmonton doesn't mean they aren't aware they need to take a step back in order to get younger & better in the future.

No, full stop. That's a load of crap, Miller was a hotly contested subject down the stretch and throughout both spring and summer. It wasn't nearly the consensus you're making it out to have been.

 

And not just on CDC either, this ain't the only hockey forum I look at.

[OldFaithfulCap]

2 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

To me the plan has been clear for years,  ownership is calling the shots, and they will sacrifice the long-term viability of the club for the hope of 2 playoff games at home.  How anyone could argue otherwise after watching for the past 10 years is beyond me?  What's been going on speaks for itself don't you think?

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/gear-how-the-stanley-cup-playoffs-affect-team-revenues/

[ShawnAntoski]

Just now, EP Phone Home said:

This quote is basically what our whole plan is from that article. I challenge anyone to convince me otherwise that management/ownership have a bolder more concrete and decisive plan.

“Once you’re in the playoffs, anything can happen. Certain players can get really hot and make a difference and you just never know” 

 

imagine that we have lived and wasted almost ten years of our lives by “just get in and anything can happen, you just never know” essentially, we have ambitions to be the 2021 Montreal Canadians Cinderella team. Not to win it but be in it. It’s just depressing at this point. 

82, 94 and 11 cup appearance in the 52 year history of the club.  I can understand the Griffith years cause they didn't have the deep pocket that both McCaw & Aquaman have and right now, it is looking like it is ONLY about: PROFITS VS WINNING A CUP. 

 

The nostalgic events & mix messaging(s) are all distractions to keep filling the seats and as a long time fan, it is insulting, that the current leadership are ASSuming these publicity stunts are enough, to cover up for the poor leadership and flawed plan, of chasing the playoffs that has been happening, since Aquaman took over.  From my POV, nothing can dispute the yearly results.

[Ghostsof1915]

5 minutes ago, OldFaithfulCap said:

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/gear-how-the-stanley-cup-playoffs-affect-team-revenues/

That's why bean counters aren't always correct. If you factor in the number of jerseys, cup winner merchandice etc. that would be far more than any cost of a parade, victory party, etc. Cup winners tend to attract free agents and players as well. So it's a huge boon for the cup winning team.

[ShawnAntoski]

14 minutes ago, OldFaithfulCap said:

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/gear-how-the-stanley-cup-playoffs-affect-team-revenues/

Loser mentality and is that guy still employed by Aquaman ? Or related to him ?

Edited December 20, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[Fanuck]

4 minutes ago, OldFaithfulCap said:

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/gear-how-the-stanley-cup-playoffs-affect-team-revenues/

That sad reality,  the fact that bean counters accept losing as long as it saves money,  is why sports and business don't necessarily blend well all the time. 

 

Sometimes the best sports decisions aren't the best financial ones.  For example,  selling assets and accruing futures is probably the best sporting decision right now but in ownership's view, clearly not the best financial decision. 

[Ghostsof1915]

6 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

That sad reality,  the fact that bean counters accept losing as long as it saves money,  is why sports and business don't necessarily blend well all the time. 

 

Sometimes the best sports decisions aren't the best financial ones.  For example,  selling assets and accruing futures is probably the best sporting decision right now but in ownership's view, clearly not the best financial decision. 

Even if it results in bringing the cap down?

[ShawnAntoski]

38 minutes ago, EternalCanuckFan said:

I haven't been following the Canucks as closely this year as it's been generally disappointing to watch them so far this season.  Below are a few observations generally about the Canucks and the league right now though:

1. Scoring is up across the league. Far more point per game players right now, for whatever reason. The rules have changed to be more permissive towards scorers. Defenders are having a tougher time in general, and goalies too. It's getting harder for defenders and goalies to keep up long stretches of solid play.
2. This trend seems to have amplified both the good and the bad parts of the Canucks' on ice performance with an added twist that their goaltending isn't as good this season. They are scoring more which you would think would mean more wins, but they are also giving up more goals. Are they vastly worse than last season? No. Are they any better?  Also no, perhaps slightly worse if only because their goaltending has not been good.
3. While the Canucks are bad, they also possess sufficient talent (particularly at forward) to win at least some games, especially now that scoring is up across the league. The issue is that they still have long standing roster construction issues. More importantly however, it simply feels like they have lost the spirit to play. Anything negative seems to have the high likelihood of causing the team to shut down, and it seems worse when they play at home. Blown leads, lack of pushback, etc.
4. The team probably needs both a personnel and culture change. Those usually go hand in hand, but might point to a need to dig deeper. This is where trading someone like Horvat would probably make a lot of sense. Depending on how things go with EP and Hughes, the team may need to enter a period where it forges a new identity which will hopefully also be accompanied by the infusion of new personnel.
5. This is just an initial thought - while I loved the era of the Sedins, Luongo, Bieksa, Burr, and Kesler, I wonder if too much has been made of living up to that culture? Bo was literally passed the captaincy by Henrik, and I recall hearing frequent rhetoric about Bo carrying on the leadership legacy of the Sedins (IIRC, he's the last remaining player who played with the Sedins). Maybe what the team needs is to forge a new identity that better matches its core players now? 
6. I have been wanting a rebuild for a long time. It has been nice to see EP and Hughes develop well, but the concern with their development has been that the Canucks might waste their best years as the core of the team if they didn't rebuild effectively around them. Do they even want to stick around to be the "veteran core" moving forward to provide the Canucks a foundation to build on? I suspect Benning made the OEL deal as one his final attempts at rebuilding around EP and Hughes, despite a lot of red flags about what doing so would cost the Canucks both in the short and long term if it didn't work out. Considering EP's current contract expires after next season, it feels like the Canucks are about to realize that issue soon, whatever happens with Horvat, Miller, Boeser, etc. If EP holds out with a trade demand or re-signs without giving up any UFA years, then this team's window for contention is going to be completely up in the air.
7. As a fan, I think the most frustrating thing to see is management either do nothing, more of the same, and/or contradictory things. Re-signing Miller can be defensible but doesn't speak well to having a plan if management really thinks that EP is the only untouchable and may have begun actively shopping other players. Right now it's hard to believe management has much of a plan, and if they did have a plan, then it doesn't seem like it was a good one if they are making major changes already.
8. I'll still cheer for the Canucks but it's honestly painful to watch games right now. It's been many years now where the main source of joy in following the Canucks has been watching prospects develop, particularly EP and Hughes. I suspect that's what I'll continue to focus on even if the current pipeline isn't particularly well stocked.

Basically, there are SOME thing(s), a team can control and not.  The current Canuck leadership has chosen the (VERY SHORTSIGHTED) playoff chasing strategy, for futures - and it backfired cause they were too shortsighted/incompetent, to realize that they were using futures, as currency vs treating it, as an asset.  It always comes back to Aquaman and how he continues to handcuffed his own FO, to shortsighted gambles..

 

https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/569255

Edited December 20, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[stawns]

42 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Understand the difference between winning a cup vs chasing a playoff spot ?  If not, then enjoy the mediocre product and keep Aquaman happy cause he will not change, as long as, the current endeavor remains profitable.  

 

https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/569255

How is it you win a Cup?  Right, by making the playoffs

[ShawnAntoski]

18 minutes ago, stawns said:

How is it you win a Cup?  Right, by making the playoffs

Still don't understand, perhaps re read some of my post before engaging.  Don't want to rehash and I am not inneterested, in changing your mind cause it is your choice, time & money.  Enjoy the regular season victories/trophies, the nostalgic events and keep Aquaman happy.

 

Perhaps, read what Fanuck just posted after, this post for further context, before we waste both our time.  As a long time fan, that has invested a lot - I want a Cup and a better product for my money...

 

Cheers

Edited December 20, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[Fanuck]

Just now, Ghostsof1915 said:

Even if it results in bringing the cap down?

Aquaman can't see the forest for the trees.  He thinks a 75% full arena cheering a 'meh' product that's going nowhere is WAY better than a 50% arena cheering a young, skilled,  physical,  team on the rise to big things in 3 or so years. 

 

He'd much rather pay max cap for a mediocre team than lesser cap to a young,  hard-working team learning the ropes.  Yhe past 10 years have absolutely proven this.  He's terrified of endorsing a rebuild for fear of public backlash and empty seats. 

 

It's so bad, I'm actually not even blaming ownership anymore because zebras can't change their stripes so to speak,  I actually blame the regular fans who routinely pay for this MEH product time and time again.   No, I'm not talking about the blue-collar family who save for 8 months to take their 2 kids to 1 game for the weekend from Quesnel, I'm talking about regular ticket buyers who legitimize the past 10 years of organizational ineptitude with their continued financial support of this organization.  If they stopped paying,  Aquaman would notice,  that much I'm sure of.

[ShawnAntoski]

4 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

Aquaman can't see the forest for the trees.  He thinks a 75% full arena cheering a 'meh' product that's going nowhere is WAY better than a 50% arena cheering a young, skilled,  physical,  team on the rise to big things in 3 or so years. 

 

He'd much rather pay max cap for a mediocre team than lesser cap to a young,  hard-working team learning the ropes.  Yhe past 10 years have absolutely proven this.  He's terrified of endorsing a rebuild for fear of public backlash and empty seats. 

 

It's so bad, I'm actually not even blaming ownership anymore because zebras can't change their stripes so to speak,  I actually blame the regular fans who routinely pay for this MEH product time and time again.   No, I'm not talking about the blue-collar family who save for 8 months to take their 2 kids to 1 game for the weekend from Quesnel, I'm talking about regular ticket buyers who legitimize the past 10 years of organizational ineptitude with their continued financial support of this organization.  If they stopped paying,  Aquaman would notice,  that much I'm sure of.

Well said

 

For some, it is a REAL privilege to go to a game but I wonder what happens when it really becomes a privilege for MOST cause inflation, will surely start affecting a lot MORE people - and will Aquaman be more willing to sacrifice a few years, for a better product ?  Time will tell cause apathy and inflation are already here...

Edited December 20, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[OldFaithfulCap]

7 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

Aquaman can't see the forest for the trees.  He thinks a 75% full arena cheering a 'meh' product that's going nowhere is WAY better than a 50% arena cheering a young, skilled,  physical,  team on the rise to big things in 3 or so years. 

 

He'd much rather pay max cap for a mediocre team than lesser cap to a young,  hard-working team learning the ropes.  Yhe past 10 years have absolutely proven this.  He's terrified of endorsing a rebuild for fear of public backlash and empty seats. 

 

It's so bad, I'm actually not even blaming ownership anymore because zebras can't change their stripes so to speak,  I actually blame the regular fans who routinely pay for this MEH product time and time again.   No, I'm not talking about the blue-collar family who save for 8 months to take their 2 kids to 1 game for the weekend from Quesnel, I'm talking about regular ticket buyers who legitimize the past 10 years of organizational ineptitude with their continued financial support of this organization.  If they stopped paying,  Aquaman would notice,  that much I'm sure of.

I hope that's true. In other leagues, like the NFL, tv revenue is so big that some teams treat like their season ticket holders like crap and play in half-filled stadiums - i'm thinking of the washington football team. Did the leafs ever hit a point where they did this or did they just carry on and get auston matthews.

[grandmaster]

2 hours ago, dpn1 said:

All morning I have been checking canucks.com to see who is getting traded to finally shake the team out of this funk.  With Aiden McDonough coming this spring Brock becomes expendable.  His salary would free up cap space for signing Bo. 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there won’t be any trades due to everyone being Cap’d out. Possibly by the TDL but more likely in the summer. 
 

[Fanuck]

Just now, OldFaithfulCap said:

I hope that's true. In other leagues, like the NFL, tv revenue is so big that some teams treat like their season ticket holders like crap and play in half-filled stadiums - i'm thinking of the washington football team. Did the leafs ever hit a point where they did this or did they just carry on and get auston matthews.

Isn't that Washington NFL owner the guy who was found guilty in court for creating a toxic work culture in his organization?  I'm not sure he's the model anyone wants to follow.   Good question about the Laffs though,  where would they be without AM?

[R3aL]

2 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Mikhayev has been fine but that money should have been used towards the blueline and/or a Horvat extension.

I honestly disagree. Mikehyev was a great add in my opinion. We needed a forward with his toolbox in our mix.

 

I support the Mik signing 100%

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, grandmaster said:

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there won’t be any trades due to everyone being Cap’d out. Possibly by the TDL but more likely in the summer. 
 

With Bo we need to either extend him or trade him by the TDL.  Summer isn’t an option for Bo.  

[ShawnAntoski]

1 minute ago, OldFaithfulCap said:

I hope that's true. In other leagues, like the NFL, tv revenue is so big that some teams treat like their season ticket holders like crap and play in half-filled stadiums - i'm thinking of the washington football team. Did the leafs ever hit a point where they did this or did they just carry on and get auston matthews.

The Laffs did a rebuild but Dubas in his genuine, forgot a cap existed cause he taught building a team, like a child would in the Playstation will work.  More than 50, of their cap on 3-5 players is not a Cup contender cause they had also mismanaged their drafting & development vs what Col has accomplished.  It always, goes back to leadership