Alflives Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, AnthonyG said: @DSVII doesnt seem to think that veteran goalies like Holtby or Halak served a purpose. I bet $11000112048u139805713 Demko wishes he had a mentor to help talk him through this sh*t season. Same with Martin right now. Instead its 3 young goalies with little to no experience looking at each other for solutions. JR was an NHL goalie. Ian Clarke is a top goalie coach. Kirk McLean is here too. Demko has been playing through injury. He will be back to his Double Bubble self once fully healthy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, DSVII said: If he served a purpose, we wouldn't have bought him out a year later. Why am I being dragged into this again? I never said mentor/veteran goalies weren't important, but we overpaid for Holtby and he wasn't the right acquisition. We could have targeted cheaper options considering our Cap context. Should I call you out every time draft position comes up in a chat because you clearly don't believe having a higher pick is more valuable because Pastranak went 24th? Would you rather have the 1st overall or 24th this year? I seem to recall you scoffing at Holtby and making a comment that Demko doesnt need help. I'm just pointing out something you laughed about, that is truly an issue. The pressure in this market pushes people out. How about the banner? This market is volatile and as soon as theres a flicker, theres a full on f***ing forest fire. We considered a 2 year term, which I'll take the 2 year term for a Stanley cup, Vezina, Jennings winning goalie over the next option. Wasnt a long term investment like Markstrom could have been like most people here cried and complained about. After that he went and signed Halak for very cheap. Go ahead and when your 1st overall gets thrown into a wild fire and is a bust because his development path was trash, I'll remind you development>draft capital. Of course we all want the 1st. Is there ANY guarantee he will be an impact player? Can he make the jump? will he remain healthy? will this market destroy his confidence if he starts to struggle or slump? How many 1OA have remained the best in their draft? I'd say 1st overall gets out played by the end of their careers far more often than them remaining the best player of their draft. Hows Laffy doin? Mercer at 18th is going to pass him in way less GP. Jason Robertson 39th overall has HALF (170) the games played as Hischier and is catching up quite (183pts Robertson vs 246pts in 340GP) quickly and if he played the same amount of games as Hischier, He'd be leading the 2017 draft class by a large margin. Robert Thomas 18th overall, also catching up to Hischier in less GP... Guess what they all have in common.... A DEVELOPMENT PATH. Hischier was thrown into a fire. Drake Batherson spent 3 years developing... Guess what... 121st overall.... 9th in scoring in his draft class with 185GP. Draft capital is only good for collecting, but if you do not develop players, which is what I kept trying to get through to you a little while back, it goes nowhere. It destroys people. The whole point about Pastrnak was 1) his development and 2) Allvin was the head of Euro scouting and he chose KAPANEN over Pastrnak when BOTH were in his own backyard scouting. Him and Rutherford took Kapanen. You never know what you have if you do not take the time to develop players and get a fair assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, AnthonyG said: Go ahead and when your 1st overall gets thrown into a wild fire and is a bust because his development path was trash, I'll remind you development>draft capital. Of course we all want the 1st. Is there ANY guarantee he will be an impact player? Can he make the jump? will he remain healthy? will this market destroy his confidence if he starts to struggle or slump? How many 1OA have remained the best in their draft? I'd say 1st overall gets out played by the end of their careers far more often than them remaining the best player of their draft. Hows Laffy doin? Mercer at 18th is going to pass him in way less GP. Jason Robertson 39th overall has HALF (170) the games played as Hischier and is catching up quite (183pts Robertson vs 246pts in 340GP) quickly and if he played the same amount of games as Hischier, He'd be leading the 2017 draft class by a large margin. Robert Thomas 18th overall, also catching up to Hischier in less GP... Guess what they all have in common.... A DEVELOPMENT PATH. Hischier was thrown into a fire. Drake Batherson spent 3 years developing... Guess what... 121st overall.... 9th in scoring in his draft class with 185GP. Draft capital is only good for collecting, but if you do not develop players, which is what I kept trying to get through to you a little while back, it goes nowhere. It destroys people. The whole point about Pastrnak was 1) his development and 2) Allvin was the head of Euro scouting and he chose KAPANEN over Pastrnak when BOTH were in his own backyard scouting. Him and Rutherford took Kapanen. You never know what you have if you do not take the time to develop players and get a fair assessment. By all accounts our development team is making better strides this year than years past. I'm suspecting it has to do with Trent Cull being out of the mix. Regardless of the state of the farm though, are you seriously suggesting that the 1st overall pick is worthless to the Canucks because we have a bad development system? And that we're so bad we can make Conor Bedard a bust? Just straight up, would you rather pick 1st or 24th this year? Developing players is fine and all, but when you are injecting lower numbers of warm bodies into the system than the league average, having an elite development path isn't going to do squat. You need more picks, and higher picks to increase your chance of hitting on elite talent. Just because a 2017 1OA didn't end up generating as much value (due to a heck of a lot of variables), doesn't diminish the value of a 2023 1OA. Just because Pastrnak was picked in the late round doesn't make the 2014th 1st OA any less valuable since we're talking about accumulating draft capital before the draft. Quote I seem to recall you scoffing at Holtby and making a comment that Demko doesnt need help. I'm just pointing out something you laughed about, that is truly an issue. The pressure in this market pushes people out. How about the banner? This market is volatile and as soon as theres a flicker, theres a full on f***ing forest fire. We considered a 2 year term, which I'll take the 2 year term for a Stanley cup, Vezina, Jennings winning goalie over the next option. Wasnt a long term investment like Markstrom could have been like most people here cried and complained about. After that he went and signed Halak for very cheap. He does need help and support, but not at the cost of a starter at $4.3 million if your goal is to make playoffs next year, especially with all the cap constraints the team has. The decision to walk way from Markstrom and committing $5 mil signaled that it was his crease. I think you'll agree for the latter half of the year he proved that right. Halak was a bad deal mainly because of the dead cap from that all too easy bonus to hit the following year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmm Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 20 hours ago, Neutral said: He was brutal on that 4th goal against. Never liked us giving that much to him when we had the most depth at the winger position to begin with. Mik has fit in here decent but if a team wants to acquire him at some point during his contract he signed with Vancouver then I would move him especially if the offer is good! I would have agreed with you on July 1when the signings were made But overall Mikheyev and Kuz have been bright spots in an otherwise horrid year Allvin missed a really good opportunity to to move on from or low ball Boeser Mikheyev may well have been tied to the Kuzmenko deal, and if he was then it created the opportunity to move on from Boeser Mik scored goals at a higher rate last season than did Boeser, yet Boeser got signed for $2M more a perfect opportunity to offer Boeser a show me contract or let him walk was missed by our rookie GM Boeser was a free agent when Alvin signed him and he signed after Kuz and Mik Brock has always been paid on potential, he is getting a little long in the tooth for that now but good ol' Allvinie gave Brock his last big contract in short, Mik is not the problem on a side note, I watched a few minutes of the Leafs game today It seems that they are so broken up about Mikheyev leaving that they put his name on their jerseys who knew they thought so much of him 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vintage Canuck- Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Goal:thecup said: Wallow Jeff Wallow. what is the fascination in this market with taking glee in making a bad situation worse? it's so f---ing exhausting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Wow, you guys really perceive Van media to be credible. Holy! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 27 minutes ago, DSVII said: By all accounts our development team is making better strides this year than years past. I'm suspecting it has to do with Trent Cull being out of the mix. Regardless of the state of the farm though, are you seriously suggesting that the 1st overall pick is worthless to the Canucks because we have a bad development system? And that we're so bad we can make Conor Bedard a bust? Just straight up, would you rather pick 1st or 24th this year? Developing players is fine and all, but when you are injecting lower numbers of warm bodies into the system than the league average, having an elite development path isn't going to do squat. You need more picks, and higher picks to increase your chance of hitting on elite talent. Just because a 2017 1OA didn't end up generating as much value (due to a heck of a lot of variables), doesn't diminish the value of a 2023 1OA. Just because Pastrnak was picked in the late round doesn't make the 2014th 1st OA any less valuable since we're talking about accumulating draft capital before the draft. He does need help and support, but not at the cost of a starter at $4.3 million if your goal is to make playoffs next year, especially with all the cap constraints the team has. The decision to walk way from Markstrom and committing $5 mil signaled that it was his crease. I think you'll agree for the latter half of the year he proved that right. Halak was a bad deal mainly because of the dead cap from that all too easy bonus to hit the following year. So I dont know how much of it is Culls fault or not, but even leading up to his dismissal, we never really had an environment to develop players. How many guys were just being inserted in the lineup, because we had such a sh*t team and they were able to make the team out of camp? Which is why I believe Benning kept targeting a certain age group in his trades, they would be good enough to help try and compete and at the same time, just be bodies holding spots so prospects could develop. It was a focus on building an environment. It was an attempt to do a stealth rebuild. Given that 1) The owner and the fans wanted playoffs and a cup and 2) We needed to rebuild. So he tried to multitask. I'd say for not tearing it all down, he did a pretty damn good job between him and his staff, in finding the talent to build around. Petey, Hughes, Boeser pre-injury, Podz, Demko. We now have the ability to actually send guys like Hogs and Podz to the minors to work on things and come up when they are truly ready. I'm excited for the future personally. I am however a little concerned with JR and PA after looking into their history. Either way, I'll give them a chance, but they have missed a couple huge opportunities in really turning this ship around like a ROR and Duchene like trade with Miller and Garland last season. Not saying Garland would net anything close to ROR or Duchene, but his value was at its peak last season. I screamed for a trade in the summer, because Hoglander makes Garland redundant and Garlands value was high.... I got laughed at. I am in no way shape or form saying that the 24th is better than the 1st, but with poor development a 24th with proper development can most certainly become the better player overall. Yakupov was a crazy talented player, Edmonton killed him pretty quick. RNH was another big pick and he never ammounted anywhere CLOSE to what they were expecting. Go ahead, throw Bedard into ARZ and see how he does. I have doubts that he will be anywhere close to McDavid in his first season. He doesnt have the speed that McDavid did, coming into the NHL. I'm tempering my expectations of Bedard. You don't "hit" on elite talent late in the draft, you DEVELOP elite talent. If they were elite talent always on display, they wouldn't be so low in the draft. People dont miss elite talent like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, those days are long over. Its developing players in a stable environment for them to BECOME elite. Yes the more picks you have, allow for more chance of finding good players, but without development it goes nowhere. Its luck and yes increasing your odds of luck are wise, but it ultimately still comes down to proper development, which is why STL and BOS have been relevant for soooooooooooooo long. There are teams that have low draft capital, but produce high talent, due to development. STL hasnt really drafted much AT ALL the last 12 years and they produce good players, because they have a solid system in place. I've seen plenty of drafts where teams have high draft capital and come out with nothing and other teams with very little draft capital and come out with 2 players a few years later. Its primarily luck and development. What do you think weighs heavier in the grand scheme of things, Luck or development? Higher odds or a better path? The whole point I've made to you is that you do not need to rely on draft capital, if you have a well structured development path for your prospects to pass through. Dude I am completely on your side that the signing of Demko signalled who's crease it was, It was always going to be Demko's net, the moment we let Markstrom walk. I am glad we let Markstrom walk because in this cap climate, we could not afford to sign him long term, it would have had a negative impact overall. Benning was right to let Markstrom, Tanev and Toffoli walk imo. Holtby was literally there to help transition Demko from back up to starter and provide veteran leadership and experience that was it. We paid for experience to try and help mold Demko into an elite goalie in every aspect with as many resources for Demko to lean on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devron Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said: Wow, you guys really perceive Van media to be credible. Holy! It’s all BS until I see it with my own eyes I say 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Devron said: It’s all BS until I see it with my own eyes I say I see Donnie, Dhali, Drance, Sekeres, Price ... that's a lot of BS. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devron Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Just now, Dr. Crossbar said: I see Donnie, Dhali, Drance, Sekeres, Price ... that's a lot of BS. As soon as a saw that one of those goofs said they will buy out Garland. I gave up… again lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 9 minutes ago, Devron said: As soon as a saw that one of those goofs said they will buy out Garland. I gave up… again lol 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 7 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said: Sadly our track record (And league records) speak for themselves. I forgot how many milestones Gretzky scored over Vancouver. It was so painful. I'd like to see Jeff Paterson compile a list of all milestone goals ever scored against Vancouver. That ought to keep him busy for abut a week. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Even strength points so far this year: Erik Karlsson - 41 Sidney Crosby - 38 Connor McDavid - 36 Elias Pettersson - 35 Jason Robertson - 35 Jack Hughes - 34 David Pastrnak - 34 Nikita Kucherov - 33 Matthew Tkachuk - 33 Tage Thompson - 32 Kyle Connor - 32 Mikko Rantanen - 31 Alex Ovechkin - 31 Pierre-Luc Dubois - 31 Leon Draisaitl - 30 Auston Matthews - 30 Elias Pettersson is 4th in the entire NHL in even strength points. Petey is a superstar... 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-23 Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Even strength points so far this year: Erik Karlsson - 41 Sidney Crosby - 38 Connor McDavid - 36 Elias Pettersson - 35 Jason Robertson - 35 Jack Hughes - 34 David Pastrnak - 34 Nikita Kucherov - 33 Matthew Tkachuk - 33 Tage Thompson - 32 Kyle Connor - 32 Mikko Rantanen - 31 Alex Ovechkin - 31 Pierre-Luc Dubois - 31 Leon Draisaitl - 30 Auston Matthews - 30 Elias Pettersson is 4th in the entire NHL in even strength points. Petey is a superstar... No surprise at all, he’s been dominating most games. I am curious what Bo is. One of many reasons why I’m all for moving Miller and Horvat and building a new core around Pettersson. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jyu Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 5 hours ago, AnthonyG said: Holtby+Pearson+Schmidt = 13.5mil - Holtby's 4.3mil is for 2 years Tanev+Toffoli+Markstrom = 14.75mil - Markstroms 6mil is for 6years. 5 hours ago, AnthonyG said: Makes sense to save a bit of cap space the following year, not invest 6 more years in a goalie and have 4.3mil come off the books when you have negotiations coming up. We replaced a D a goalie and extended Pearson over Toffoli. Pearson? He was already under contract. Besides, Pears serves a different role to Toffoli. And Holtby sucked and that was a waste of cap space. Even worse, we bought him out. For your argument to stand, Holtby had to be at least a roster player making a positive contribution. Schmidt didn’t replace Tanev. Tanev handled tough minutes, especially instrumental on our PK. Schmidt doesn’t suck but to try to replace Tanev with Schmidt is like trying to replace Malholtra with Vrbata. You actually just made my argument for me. JB replaced Marky with Holtby, who was washed up. He replaced Tanev with Schmidt, a lefty and a player that plays a completely different role to Tanev. “Let’s replace our best shot blocker and shoot suppressor and perfect partner to nurture our best defense prospect in Hughes with a puck move who plays all over the ice!” “Holtby, a cup winning goalie is on the UFA? Oh screw Marky, let’s ignore Holtby’s performance for the last few years and bring him here for 4.5 mill. That should more than replace Marky!” 5 hours ago, AnthonyG said: Also I saw you complaining about "lack of leadership/veterans"?? What the f*** do you think All 3 of those guys brought?? 2 won a cup and 1 went to the finals. Markstrom hasnt really gone anywhere, Tanev had a cup of tea in the finals, but never experienced the grind. You can’t pluck a guy outside of the organization, bring him in to be a leader. Respect is gained over the years of playing together and seeing each other making sacrifices to win. Marky and Tanev have earned that respect from his teammates. Doesn’t matter How many cups you won, you can’t own the dressing room as a new guy. Just ask Messier. 5 hours ago, AnthonyG said: Schmidt is 2 years younger, had better stats in almost every single way over Tanev and healthier more than Tanev. Tanev is the player we needed to play Green’s system. If you can’t understand the roles played by different players under different system, I don’t know what to tell ya. 5 hours ago, AnthonyG said: Get your head out of your a$$ It is. 5 hours ago, AnthonyG said: edit: Should also mention the overall term was 4 years max on all those players brought in/extended. We shaved 1.25mil off in a flat cap which is very important AND we didnt lock ourselves in for 6 years on anything. Lol and he brought in OEL who was signed for six more seasons? This contract term argument is just laughable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jyu Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 5 hours ago, AnthonyG said: 20 minutes a night is bottom pairing minutes? 25 goals against in 32GP in all situations this season is bad? So Tanevs 37 goals against in 34GP is good? Lol Schmidt has been on for a total of 17 goals against at even strength. You’re telling me thats bad? Lmfao whos making $hit up now? Oh and his even strength .932oiSV% is garbage compared to Tanevs .889oiSV%? Or is that Marky’s fault? Lmao Schmidt plays for Jets, who has better record and is playing great defensively under their new head coach. Comparing raw goals against to make your point while ignoring the context in which those goals are scored, makes you look desperate. Alright, you can have this one. Schmidt for the Norris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 18 minutes ago, J-23 said: No surprise at all, he’s been dominating most games. I am curious what Bo is. One of many reasons why I’m all for moving Miller and Horvat and building a new core around Pettersson. Bo Horvat - 28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Doctor Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 I actually thought we would win this game. Now we are going to get crushed in Tampa. Can we finally please make some moves for a chance at Bedard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMelvin Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) Lets get Subban... I will take anything over Myers or OEL lol. Im sure he would come out of Retirement haha Edited January 12, 2023 by DarthMelvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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