[PGT] Colorado Avalanche at Vancouver Canucks | Jan. 20, 2023

[RWJC]

2 minutes ago, BC_Hawk said:

Why would Kuz want to sign here? Traded or not, he can hit FA, cash in, and go to a competent winning team.

 

I have no problem with the rebuild versus retool, but have some class and do things right. If rebuild was the plan, they should have started jettisoning players for value and acquiring draft capital, prospects, and cap space last year. All JR/PA have managed to do is lock in players to untradable contracts, blow available cap, and erode any moral/ethical respect the the team had. Listen to Cogliano’s interview; that is how the organization is perceived by players league wide. Good luck signing FAs or convincing your “core” to stick around.

Because he has chemistry with EP which means $$$

[Dazzle]

4 minutes ago, RWJC said:

What did JR say when he first came in about this club. He targeted its culture and leadership, remember?

 

Why the f**k is this all on him. The players’ play is what values/devalues them. BB6 has been given ample chance. You gonna blame the coaches for his performance. What about Bo…contract year, somehow eclipses the top talent in the league and shows what he can…when money counts.

 

wake up guys. The accountability is on the players. They aren’t getting it done. Again, JR has given a year to a roster to prove something and they failed collectively. This bullshit now is because this team can’t play hockey to save themselves. Had we be going into the New Year with a winning record and at the pace of last season with a legit, non wildcard playoff spot in our clutches, you think Bruce is still on the hot seat? 
I don’t.
 

This roster of professionals, yes some of it compiled by JR/PA, has not proven they belong together any further. No need to candy coat what every other GM sees with this club and why we can’t trade players…because we have a truly mid roster with only a few key pieces that we need to keep for the future.

and no one wants our junk.

 

JR signed off on this roster after free agency because he added pieces that HE thought would complement the team. He also left the defense completely intact from the previous regime.

 

Why isn't this on him? Why are you making excuses for him?

 

Also, he revamped HIS own staff. Why is it on the players? Why didn't they do a good enough job advising him so he wouldn't make stupid mistakes like re-signing Miller over Horvat?

Edited January 21, 2023 by Dazzle

[Smashian Kassian]

11 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

You're kidding me.

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/canucks-wrong-player-extend-horvat-miller/

Canucks Chose Wrong Player to Extend Between Horvat & Miller

Horvat Brings More to the Team Than Miller

Horvat and Miller have been two of the Canucks top players over the past few seasons. However, Horvat matches his goal-scoring ability and brings a bit more to the club in other parts of the game. Although Miller had an impressive season in points last year, Horvat scored one less goal than him in 10 fewer games. The captain was on pace for 36 goals after heating up near the end of the 2021-22 season. Additionally, Horvat has nine more goals and three more points than Miller this season.

 

Aside from the offensive stats, Horvat has value as a centre. Miller started the season at centre, but he and the team struggled. Although head coach Bruce Boudreau believed Miller should play centre, the forward has proven he can’t take on the defensive responsibilities.

 

Miller’s advanced analytics prove the difference between him and Horvat at the position. At centre and without the captain, the 29-year-old posted a Corsi for % (CF%) of 43.48, an expected goals for % (xGF%) of 27.10 and a goals for % of 25 (GF%). Meanwhile, when Miller is on Horvat’s wing, those numbers spike up to 52.51 CF%, 54.62 xGF% and 56.25 GF%. Therefore, the team struggles with Miller at centre as his line gives up more scoring opportunities than they generate. Meanwhile, when playing on the wing with Horvat, his line creates more scoring opportunities than they give up.

Miller’s numbers take a hit when he plays centre since the position requires players to carry more defensive responsibility, and he tends to struggle in the defensive end. Horvat may not be a Selke Trophy nominee, but the Canucks don’t suffer with him playing in the middle. Additionally, he is the only centre that has taken over 100 draws to post a face-off win percentage above 50% (57.7%).

Additionally, Horvat has an advantage in terms of age as he is two years younger than Miller. Therefore, had the Canucks held off extending Miller and signed Horvat to the same contract, he would be 35 by the end of the contract. Instead, the Canucks will have Miller signed at an AAV of $8 million until he is 37. 

Horvat’s Leadership

Horvat hasn’t been the captain of the Canucks for long but has shown he is a good leader. He was named the 14th captain in organization history at the start of the 2019-20 season. Horvat first stepped up in the 2020 Playoffs, leading the Canucks with 10 goals in 17 games. Additionally, during the team’s playoff push in the final months of the 2021-22 season, he scored nine goals in 12 games before an injury held him out for the season. He was also helpful when the team fired head coach Travis Green and brought in Boudreau last season (from ‘Canucks notebook: Bo Horvat’s hustle, skill, leadership lauded by coach Boudreau,’ The Province, January 11, 2022). 

 

Read that link.

 

It blows my mind that YOU think Miller is more valuable than Horvat. My god.

 

Miller drives the Canucks PP. Prior to this season Horvat has been a 60 point player once. Miller has played badly at C this year but has been better in the past. Horvat is clearly better at faceoffs & losing that prowess will hurt, but Horvat isn't a level Selke defensive player himself.

 

Even if Miller is just a PPG winger that drives the PP 8M is fair right now & will be fine as the cap increases. If Horvat is a 25 goal 50-60 point 2C who isn't good on the PK then 8M will be bad right away.

 

Edit: I personally like Horvat more & am sad he's leaving, but Miller has clearly been the better player since arriving to Vancouver. This year is the only time Horvat has been better. 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Smashian Kassian

[BC_Hawk]

2 minutes ago, RWJC said:

What did JR say when he first came in about this club. He targeted its culture and leadership, remember?

 

Why the f**k is this all on him. The players’ play is what values/devalues them. BB6 has been given ample chance. You gonna blame the coaches for his performance. What about Bo…contract year, somehow eclipses the top talent in the league and shows what he can…when money counts.

 

wake up guys. The accountability is on the players. They aren’t getting it done. Again, JR has given a year to a roster to prove something and they failed collectively. This bullshit now is because this team can’t play hockey to save themselves. Had we be going into the New Year with a winning record and at the pace of last season with a legit, non wildcard playoff spot in our clutches, you think Bruce is still on the hot seat? 
I don’t.
 

This roster of professionals, yes some of it compiled by JR/PA, has not proven they belong together any further. No need to candy coat what every other GM sees with this club and why we can’t trade players…because we have a truly mid roster with only a few key pieces that we need to keep for the future.

and no one wants our junk.

 

Don’t disagree, but why do you sign Miller for 7 years, Boeser for 3, etc? Let the players dictate their value in 2022/23…and trade at deadline at max value with expiring contracts. JR doubled down on JBs core, and lost. To make matters worse, all of FO dealings and such have blown up in his face. All of this is not on the players, it is on him.

[chon derry]

2 minutes ago, RWJC said:

What did JR say when he first came in about this club. He targeted its culture and leadership, remember?

 

Why the f**k is this all on him. The players’ play is what values/devalues them. BB6 has been given ample chance. You gonna blame the coaches for his performance. What about Bo…contract year, somehow eclipses the top talent in the league and shows what he can…when money counts.

 

wake up guys. The accountability is on the players. They aren’t getting it done. Again, JR has given a year to a roster to prove something and they failed collectively. This bullshit now is because this team can’t play hockey to save themselves. Had we be going into the New Year with a winning record and at the pace of last season with a legit, non wildcard playoff spot in our clutches, you think Bruce is still on the hot seat? 
I don’t.
 

This roster of professionals, yes some of it compiled by JR/PA, has not proven they belong together any further. No need to candy coat what every other GM sees with this club and why we can’t trade players…because we have a truly mid roster with only a few key pieces that we need to keep for the future.

and no one wants our junk.

 

What was the hurry to sign miller given the year he had to further evaluate him ? Total oversite. Had he of held off and weighed the two players there wouldn’t be this cap issue. They also could have avoided the potential of having millers poor loser attitutude that they could be stuck with forever. ?

[FaninMex]

6 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

You're kidding me.

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/canucks-wrong-player-extend-horvat-miller/

Canucks Chose Wrong Player to Extend Between Horvat & Miller

Horvat Brings More to the Team Than Miller

Horvat and Miller have been two of the Canucks top players over the past few seasons. However, Horvat matches his goal-scoring ability and brings a bit more to the club in other parts of the game. Although Miller had an impressive season in points last year, Horvat scored one less goal than him in 10 fewer games. The captain was on pace for 36 goals after heating up near the end of the 2021-22 season. Additionally, Horvat has nine more goals and three more points than Miller this season.

 

Aside from the offensive stats, Horvat has value as a centre. Miller started the season at centre, but he and the team struggled. Although head coach Bruce Boudreau believed Miller should play centre, the forward has proven he can’t take on the defensive responsibilities.

 

Miller’s advanced analytics prove the difference between him and Horvat at the position. At centre and without the captain, the 29-year-old posted a Corsi for % (CF%) of 43.48, an expected goals for % (xGF%) of 27.10 and a goals for % of 25 (GF%). Meanwhile, when Miller is on Horvat’s wing, those numbers spike up to 52.51 CF%, 54.62 xGF% and 56.25 GF%. Therefore, the team struggles with Miller at centre as his line gives up more scoring opportunities than they generate. Meanwhile, when playing on the wing with Horvat, his line creates more scoring opportunities than they give up.

Miller’s numbers take a hit when he plays centre since the position requires players to carry more defensive responsibility, and he tends to struggle in the defensive end. Horvat may not be a Selke Trophy nominee, but the Canucks don’t suffer with him playing in the middle. Additionally, he is the only centre that has taken over 100 draws to post a face-off win percentage above 50% (57.7%).

Additionally, Horvat has an advantage in terms of age as he is two years younger than Miller. Therefore, had the Canucks held off extending Miller and signed Horvat to the same contract, he would be 35 by the end of the contract. Instead, the Canucks will have Miller signed at an AAV of $8 million until he is 37. 

Horvat’s Leadership

Horvat hasn’t been the captain of the Canucks for long but has shown he is a good leader. He was named the 14th captain in organization history at the start of the 2019-20 season. Horvat first stepped up in the 2020 Playoffs, leading the Canucks with 10 goals in 17 games. Additionally, during the team’s playoff push in the final months of the 2021-22 season, he scored nine goals in 12 games before an injury held him out for the season. He was also helpful when the team fired head coach Travis Green and brought in Boudreau last season (from ‘Canucks notebook: Bo Horvat’s hustle, skill, leadership lauded by coach Boudreau,’ The Province, January 11, 2022). 

 

Read that link.

 

It blows my mind that YOU think Miller is more valuable than Horvat. My god.

I don't know about this. Both Miller and Bo have shown very little in terms of leadership on the ice except for the one game that they tried to get into fights. Both had career years on years that they were looking for contract extensions. I do not trust players that suddenly get good when they need to be re-signed, I say any player that does that needs to be traded. Creates more Loui E and zero heart a la Canucks.

[Dazzle]

2 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Because he has chemistry with EP which means $$$

There are better places for him to make money, if that's what he's chasing (i.e. the US), and for him to perform better. The dude is 27. He will miss Vancouver, but I guarantee that he will want to spend his years competing for a cup. If he doesn't perform well in Vancouver (a retool/rebuilding team), his NHL career will be done.

 

He is not obligated to be loyal to Vancouver, nor should anyone think that way. You'd be foolish to think I'd sign with Vancouver right now with this kind of management, if I were a player. The only reason I'd sign is if I got overpaid.

[FaninMex]

17 minutes ago, RWJC said:

By who?!?!?

You can blame the players for that. 
They were able to play hockey last season when Bruce came in. They have the talent, they just don’t have the combined character as a team. The players will have gotten Bruce fired.

Walker and Shaw

[Barnstorm]

8 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Well let’s just see what this team looks like next preseason, yeah? Could be vastly improved and set up with a future. I think a little more time is needed to see what comes of all this.

I can agree with that entirely. My point is that this has become such a flustercluck I don’t see any way out of it without removing JR. Players and fans are not buying into his mistakes. 
If anyone can’t see that he has completely botched this then they are willfully blind. 
Like I said previously , one year in and he’s already alienated fans and players alike. 
One year in under his direction and we’ve become a laughing stock league wide. 
ETA… new management should not bring such mistakes and loss of confidence. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Barnstorm

[RWJC]

4 minutes ago, RWJC said:

What did JR say when he first came in about this club. He targeted its culture and leadership, remember?

 

Why the f**k is this all on him. The players’ play is what values/devalues them. BB6 has been given ample chance. You gonna blame the coaches for his performance. What about Bo…contract year, somehow eclipses the top talent in the league and shows what he can…when money counts.

 

wake up guys. The accountability is on the players. They aren’t getting it done. Again, JR has given a year to a roster to prove something and they failed collectively. This bullshit now is because this team can’t play hockey to save themselves. Had we be going into the New Year with a winning record and at the pace of last season with a legit, non wildcard playoff spot in our clutches, you think Bruce is still on the hot seat? 
I don’t.
 

This roster of professionals, yes some of it compiled by JR/PA, has not proven they belong together any further. No need to candy coat what every other GM sees with this club and why we can’t trade players…because we have a truly mid roster with only a few key pieces that we need to keep for the future.

and no one wants our junk.

 

Why do you keep laughing at my points?

You’re on CDC, you’ve seen all the complaining prior to JR’s hiring. 
you’ve seen Benning let most of our real core at the time all walk in free agency. Killed the soul of the club. Players felt insulted. EP and QH still extended.

I think it’s premature to be so critical, but have at er. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, FaninMex said:

I don't know about this. Both Miller and Bo have shown very little in terms of leadership on the ice except for the one game that they tried to get into fights. Both had career years on years that they were looking for contract extensions. I do not trust players that suddenly get good when they need to be re-signed, I say any player that does that needs to be traded. Creates more Loui E and zero heart a la Canucks.

TBH we probably should have held off on the Miller signing.

 

Yeah you run the risk but if shit goes south you trade and get something for him.

[BC_Hawk]

4 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Because he has chemistry with EP which means $$$

Because his chemistry with EP got him points this year that will get him $$$ this summer. After he signs a 6m dollar 4/5yr contract in July do you really think he cares. Besides, stick him next to any dominant C in the league and he’ll stack points.

[chon derry]

5 minutes ago, Mike Vanderhoek said:

People forget what was said when he was first hired on. If you listened, the team had good pieces. Was too reliant on goaltending and needed to get structured play, defensively responsible coaching. It was said creating cap flexibility was needed.

 

JR wasn't wrong. He's said the same thing throughout and now more changes are coming.

 

Most people last offseason wanted Miller signed and also thought Bo would get done at a much lower cap number then is talked about here.

 

Fair enough. But jr had a little over a year at the time to further evaluate miller. Before signing him Thereby avoiding this mess ,and also buying the time to see how the eventuality of Horvats season turned out. 

[Dazzle]

2 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

Miller drives the Canucks PP. Prior to this season Horvat has been a 60 point player once. Miller has played badly at C this year but has been better in the past. Horvat is clearly better at faceoffs & losing that prowess will hurt, but Horvat isn't a level Selke defensive player himself.

 

Even if Miller is just a PPG winger that drives the PP 8M is fair right now & will be fine as the cap increases. If Horvat is a 25 goal 50-60 point 2C who isn't good on the PK then 8M will be bad right away.

 

Edit: I personally like Horvat more & am sad he's leaving, but Miller has clearly been the better player since arriving to Vancouver. This year is the only time Horvat has been better. 

 

Our PP is worse than ever, with or without Miller. Horvat has improved every season.

 

There was no rush to re-sign Miller. He still had a year left on his contract.

 

Holy... the amount of excuses you're making is so mind boggling.

[Zerofaith]

Also now we know Alvin is still around the team guess he was just hiding to avoid getting  ragged on

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[DeNiro]

Just now, Zerofaith said:

Also now we know Alvin is still around the team guess he was just hiding to avoid getting  ragged on

Lets face it all he does is get Rutherford his coffee.

[BC_Hawk]

6 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

JR signed off on this roster after free agency because he added pieces that HE thought would complement the team. He also left the defense completely intact from the previous regime.

 

Why isn't this on him? Why are you making excuses for him?

 

Also, he revamped HIS own staff. Why is it on the players? Why didn't they do a good enough job advising him so he wouldn't make stupid mistakes like re-signing Miller over Horvat?

Exactly Dazzle. If the coach was an issue for him it shoulda been addressed in June. Would it have been popular…no, but it could have at least been done with class.

 

this is all on him and his dim witted GM. They gave two priorities; rebuild defense and create cap space. They failed at both.

[Zerofaith]

6 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

Miller drives the Canucks PP. Prior to this season Horvat has been a 60 point player once. Miller has played badly at C this year but has been better in the past. Horvat is clearly better at faceoffs & losing that prowess will hurt, but Horvat isn't a level Selke defensive player himself.

 

Even if Miller is just a PPG winger that drives the PP 8M is fair right now & will be fine as the cap increases. If Horvat is a 25 goal 50-60 point 2C who isn't good on the PK then 8M will be bad right away.

 

Edit: I personally like Horvat more & am sad he's leaving, but Miller has clearly been the better player since arriving to Vancouver. This year is the only time Horvat has been better. 

 

The only driving miller is doing is blind passes that get intercepted and results in odd man rushes the other way 

[Pickly]

17 minutes ago, FaninMex said:

You all have to get over Benning. A couple of trades instead of re-signing Miller and Boeser and the team would be completely different. Yes, Benning had his problems but this Management, esp JR, talked about all the things the team needed to do and chose to do nothing. The current management has shot themselves in the foot and are in the process of blaming everyone else. I bet this management sinks further into the mire when nobody in the league offers them fair value. The lack of anything has sunk the team for the next 5-10 years.