canuckwings Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 6 minutes ago, JamesB said: While I hope Hronek does well for the Canucks, I would rather have had the picks. I see three issues with Hronek. 1. He is only team controlled for two seasons (this year and next year). After that he will get a "market" return, regardless of whether he signs an extension next summer or not. In expected value terms, his contract will become "neutral", instead of being a positive value contract. By picking up ASP Detroit will have him for many years (probably to age 27) on a positive value contract until he qualifies to become a UFA. 2. Hronek was very good last year. He was not as good in earlier years. I think it is likely that, given his age, he has simply improved over time in the normal way and this year he will be just as good as last year or even better. But it is just possible that last year turns out to be an outlier year. I am not saying that is likely, but it is a risk. 3. Although we have been told that his injury is healed and his shoulder is "fine", as we have seen from Bear's experience, shoulder problems can be cumulative. There is some possibility that last year's injury makes future injury more likely and/or limits his future play. Once again, I am not saying this is likely, but it is another meaningful risk. Adding it all up, I can see why Detroit made the trade. I think the Canucks have taken a pretty big gamble with Hronek, pushing a lot of chips to the middle of the table. I just hope that Hronek turns out to be worthwhile from the Canuck point of view. I agree this is a gamble and can only hope PA made the right decision. Until we see a full season of Hronek on our line up, I don't think anyone can judge at this moment how either side have fared on this trade. It's too early. I think we should be mindful that a trade doesn't have to be a win-lose scenario, which seems to be how some folks here are evaluating the trade. To me it's not about how Wings do without Hronek, it's about how Hronek will help the Canucks as well as factoring in the price we paid for him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sell.the.team Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Hronek hasn't even entered his prime yet, so how is that selling high? For someone who posts like they have it all figured out... you sure come across as clueless sometimes. You can obviously sell high on a player that hasn't reached their prime yet. That is not to say that Yzerman did sell high (it's too early to tell)... just that he obviously thought he was selling high when he made the trade. You seem confused as to how he could trade away a good young player for futures and then go out and trade futures for a good young player like 6 months later.... it seems pretty obvious to me what is going on here... he's engaging in some form of 'asset management' (a foreign concept to the Canucks... I know). Whether he is right or wrong in his outlook is irrelevant to what his logic is in making these trades... Now more than ever with the flat cap are we seeing the true opportunity costs that come with having cap hits on the books. Edited July 10, 2023 by Sell.the.team 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flickyoursedin Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 18 hours ago, Vanisleryan said: Seems like an underwhelming return. Is this prospect any good? Honestly I’m surprised they got a 1rst round pick from Detroit. Yzerman was moving cap and you have a player who can only really be dealt to a couple teams but needs to be dealt. I thought he would have offered lower like multiple 2nds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: None of those guys are elite though. They do have alot of prosepcts on defence but not much up front. I wasn't high on Danielson and I think Yzerman sh*t the bed passing on Dvorsky. Another Yzerman question mark is drafting Cossa ahead of Wallstedt. I think that is going to backfire on him too. Cossa was in the ECHL last year while Wallstedt was dominating the SHL and then the AHL... Kasper is pretty good. Had a nice season in the SHL as a 18/19 year old. Hard-nosed two-way C. I feel he has solid 2nd C potential. That's what they need behind Larkin Copp and Compher are both really good 3rd/borderline 2nd Cs that play a strong two-way game. They also can play the wing as Kasper grows. Both could play the wing if Rasmussen can hold 3C down. He had a pretty productive year. They need to focus in on getting more offense. I suspect they try to acquire more scoring on top of Debrincat. Perhaps as a market opens up like they did here or in next years free agency. I personally wouldn't have drafted ASP but another forward. Maybe they thought the risk/reward factor was worth it but I would have drafted another forward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkSave Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 22 hours ago, Ted Lasso said: Definitely a big shakeup this off-season adding two top six, two bottom six, and 2 dmen. I like what Detroit has done this offseason to create more depth, scoring and sanpaper on their roster. On paper, I really like their 4th line- Fischer, Rasmussen, Kostin. With another solid training camp under Lalonde, I can see the Red Wings taking a step and nabbing a wild card spot. Good mix of skill/grit & younger kids/vets. Pittsburgh, NYI and WSH, BOS and FLA will be teams on the edge the wings could take out on their way to a playoff spot. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 15 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: Kasper is pretty good. Had a nice season in the SHL as a 18/19 year old. Hard-nosed two-way C. I feel he has solid 2nd C potential. That's what they need behind Larkin Copp and Compher are both really good 3rd/borderline 2nd Cs that play a strong two-way game. They also can play the wing as Kasper grows. Both could play the wing if Rasmussen can hold 3C down. He had a pretty productive year. They need to focus in on getting more offense. I suspect they try to acquire more scoring on top of Debrincat. Perhaps as a market opens up like they did here or in next years free agency. I personally wouldn't have drafted ASP but another forward. Maybe they thought the risk/reward factor was worth it but I would have drafted another forward. This is all true, but again they have no elite players up front or on the way. They have nobody that has hit 80 points in a season, no PPG players at all. We have two, plus we have a 40-goal scorer on top of that (yeah he got 39). Copp, Compher and Rasmussen are all 3rd line, 2nd line tweeners. Kasper might be a 2C, but he could also be a 3C. Raymond has potential, but not sure if he's a #1 winger 40 goal guy. The only real elite talent on the team is Seider, and he still has much to prove. Edvinsson could be a top pairing guy, but the other Dmen are all 2nd pair, 3rd pair tweeners. As for goalies, I think Yzermen sh*t the bed taking Cossa over Wallstedt. After all the Swedish guys he takes he passes on the Swedish goalie. Not a smart move IMO and gonna bite him in the a** hard. Wallstedt is going to be a #1 goalie in the NHL and may even be the next Lundqvist... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 Just now, Elias Pettersson said: This is all true, but again they have no elite players up front or on the way. They have nobody that has hit 80 points in a season, no PPG players at all. We have two, plus we have a 40-goal scorer on top of that (yeah he got 39). Copp, Compher and Rasmussen are all 3rd line, 2nd line tweeners. Kasper might be a 2C, but he could also be a 3C. Raymond has potential, but not sure if he's a #1 winger 40 goal guy. The only real elite talent on the team is Seider, and he still has much to prove. Edvinsson could be a top pairing guy, but the other Dmen are all 2nd pair, 3rd pair tweeners. As for goalies, I think Yzermen sh*t the bed taking Cossa over Wallstedt. After all the Swedish guys he takes he passes on the Swedish goalie. Not a smart move IMO and gonna bite him in the a** hard. Wallstedt is going to be a #1 goalie in the NHL and may even be the next Lundqvist... Overall they've done something we don't really see super often which is a rebuild/retool on the fly. They had the cap, the prospects in the system and assets. They traded guys out, traded for guys, signed folks, drafted folks and spent picks in a trade. I kind of get the feeling that they kind of werent super happy with the makeup of their roster prior to all these moves we've seen. Cossa is an unfortunate miss so far but it goes to show that having a good draft year can sometimes not account to much. Still pretty early on though so we'll see. Yeah I think when the next big offensive star is available they will be probably one of the main bidders. They have the assets and the need. Wings could be a player in a blockbuster down the line. Time will tell for the Wings. They are definitely better off than most of teams in the east long-term. They'll probably be on the rise when a lot of teams are on the downswing and there's gonna be a bunch of teams that will be collapsing down the road. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 17 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: Overall they've done something we don't really see super often which is a rebuild/retool on the fly. They had the cap, the prospects in the system and assets. They traded guys out, traded for guys, signed folks, drafted folks and spent picks in a trade. I kind of get the feeling that they kind of werent super happy with the makeup of their roster prior to all these moves we've seen. Cossa is an unfortunate miss so far but it goes to show that having a good draft year can sometimes not account to much. Still pretty early on though so we'll see. Yeah I think when the next big offensive star is available they will be probably one of the main bidders. They have the assets and the need. Wings could be a player in a blockbuster down the line. Time will tell for the Wings. They are definitely better off than most of teams in the east long-term. They'll probably be on the rise when a lot of teams are on the downswing and there's gonna be a bunch of teams that will be collapsing down the road. I think they intended to do a rebuild but changed course and now are looking to retool. Not sure why, maybe the owner got impatient. A rebuild would have meant that they wouldn't have traded for DeBrincat and quite frankly they would have traded Larkin too. This just shows how hard it is to do a full rebuild. You basically have to have everyone on board and be prepared to suffer for several years and then hope and pray your picks and prospects turn into gold. And you have to hit on most of your top picks. If Wallstedt and Dvorsky turn into stars and Cossa and Danielson flop, then it's game over for the Yzerplan... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 25 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: I think they intended to do a rebuild but changed course and now are looking to retool. Not sure why, maybe the owner got impatient. A rebuild would have meant that they wouldn't have traded for DeBrincat and quite frankly they would have traded Larkin too. This just shows how hard it is to do a full rebuild. You basically have to have everyone on board and be prepared to suffer for several years and then hope and pray your picks and prospects turn into gold. And you have to hit on most of your top picks. If Wallstedt and Dvorsky turn into stars and Cossa and Danielson flop, then it's game over for the Yzerplan... Burt was gone the day after Larkin re-signed and Hronek was traded on the same day. Larkin was emotional in an interview that day. I believe someone may have made a thread about it here. Had they intended to rebuild they wouldn't have re-signed Larkin prior to moving Burt or Hronek. That doesn't align with a full rebuild but rather retool/rebuild on the fly with keeping Larkin as a centerpiece to help build around. They already have a good prospect pool, a bunch of picks and assets to make trades. There's no point in rebuilding anymore now that they have the assets to trade for spots they need. To fill the holes their prospect pool doesn't I don't think they care for Cossa as much now that they've drafted Augustine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 56 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: Burt was gone the day after Larkin re-signed and Hronek was traded on the same day. Larkin was emotional in an interview that day. I believe someone may have made a thread about it here. Had they intended to rebuild they wouldn't have re-signed Larkin prior to moving Burt or Hronek. That doesn't align with a full rebuild but rather retool/rebuild on the fly with keeping Larkin as a centerpiece to help build around. They already have a good prospect pool, a bunch of picks and assets to make trades. There's no point in rebuilding anymore now that they have the assets to trade for spots they need. To fill the holes their prospect pool doesn't I don't think they care for Cossa as much now that they've drafted Augustine. They don't have any elite players other than Seider. So, if they are finished rebuilding then their core isn't strong enough to make them a contender. Not sure they are going to find a Petey on the free agent market. You have to draft superstars. Augustine is no Wallstedt. Edvinsson is probably the only prospect they have that screams star player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: They don't have any elite players other than Seider. So, if they are finished rebuilding then their core isn't strong enough to make them a contender. Not sure they are going to find a Petey on the free agent market. You have to draft superstars. Augustine is no Wallstedt. Edvinsson is probably the only prospect they have that screams star player. The Atlantic division is utterly stacked. To the teats. Tampa, Toronto, and Boston are going to be locks. Buffalo and Florida should take the wild cards. Good luck to the other teams... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: They don't have any elite players other than Seider. So, if they are finished rebuilding then their core isn't strong enough to make them a contender. Not sure they are going to find a Petey on the free agent market. You have to draft superstars. Augustine is no Wallstedt. Edvinsson is probably the only prospect they have that screams star player. They can trade, they have the assets and stars have been available that way. Look at the last Finals teams. A couple of the best players for those teams were traded for. I think there's more than Seider as potential star personally. Edvinsson and Kasper. They already have a #1C in Larkin too and I feel that he's elite as well. Debrincat also borderline star who's put up 40 goals twice before. They need more but I feel they're on the right track. Have to wait and see what else they do down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said: The Atlantic division is utterly stacked. To the teats. Tampa, Toronto, and Boston are going to be locks. Buffalo and Florida should take the wild cards. Good luck to the other teams... Gonna be a pretty hard drop though. Windows are closing for a lot of east teams. Enjoy their success while it lasts. I feel that the west will be the powerhouse conference soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 13 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: They can trade, they have the assets and stars have been available that way. Look at the last Finals teams. A couple of the best players for those teams were traded for. I think there's more than Seider as potential star personally. Edvinsson and Kasper. They already have a #1C in Larkin too and I feel that he's elite as well. Debrincat also borderline star who's put up 40 goals twice before. They need more but I feel they're on the right track. Have to wait and see what else they do down the road. Florida already had elite players. They won the President's trophy without Tkachuk. They had to give up a 100 point player and a top 4 Dman in order to get him. Detroit doesn't even have a 100 point player. They don't even have an 80 point player. Vegas was already stacked before they got Eichel. They almost won the cup in their first year. Larkin may be a 1C but he is not elite. He is similar to Horvat. DeBrincat's numbers dropped after he was traded from Chicago. Not sure he's going to get back to scoring 40 goals. Like I said Edvinsson is the only prospect that screams star potential. I don't think Kasper has that potential. 23 points in 52 games in the SHL doesn't scream superstar. In comparison, Petey had 56 points in 44 games after he was drafted. That's a huge difference. Kasper could be a 2C. I think that is his ceiling. But hey, I could be wrong on everything. We will see... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 14 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Florida already had elite players. They won the President's trophy without Tkachuk. They had to give up a 100 point player and a top 4 Dman in order to get him. Detroit doesn't even have a 100 point player. They don't even have an 80 point player. Vegas was already stacked before they got Eichel. They almost won the cup in their first year. Larkin may be a 1C but he is not elite. He is similar to Horvat. DeBrincat's numbers dropped after he was traded from Chicago. Not sure he's going to get back to scoring 40 goals. Like I said Edvinsson is the only prospect that screams star potential. I don't think Kasper has that potential. 23 points in 52 games in the SHL doesn't scream superstar. In comparison, Petey had 56 points in 44 games after he was drafted. That's a huge difference. Kasper could be a 2C. I think that is his ceiling. But hey, I could be wrong on everything. We will see... Time to use moneyball tactics - can't get one 100-pt player but you can three players who produce 100 points in the aggregate. Bringing back Tomáš Tatar would be a big boost for that team. Suter too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Florida already had elite players. They won the President's trophy without Tkachuk. They had to give up a 100 point player and a top 4 Dman in order to get him. Detroit doesn't even have a 100 point player. They don't even have an 80 point player. Vegas was already stacked before they got Eichel. They almost won the cup in their first year. Larkin may be a 1C but he is not elite. He is similar to Horvat. DeBrincat's numbers dropped after he was traded from Chicago. Not sure he's going to get back to scoring 40 goals. Like I said Edvinsson is the only prospect that screams star potential. I don't think Kasper has that potential. 23 points in 52 games in the SHL doesn't scream superstar. In comparison, Petey had 56 points in 44 games after he was drafted. That's a huge difference. Kasper could be a 2C. I think that is his ceiling. But hey, I could be wrong on everything. We will see... Debrincat played 1 season away from Chicago. Larkin is better than Horvat. That’s not a good comparison IMO. Horvat is only really better on the draws. He isn’t better offensively or defensively than Larkin and Larkin has wheels. Kasper is more of a rounded player than Petey and Petey is a world class talent. That’s an unfair comparison. He just needs to be a good 2C on that team. They still have the assets to trade. This draft helped. They are more than capable once the deal arises and they always seemingly do as loyalty doesn’t seem that important for some star players. They have flexibility in acquiring players. They also got a lot of talent that could pan out into some solid pieces. Time will tell but they are far from being in the worst position in the east IMO, particularly in a few years from now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said: Burt was gone the day after Larkin re-signed and Hronek was traded on the same day. Larkin was emotional in an interview that day. I believe someone may have made a thread about it here. Had they intended to rebuild they wouldn't have re-signed Larkin prior to moving Burt or Hronek. That doesn't align with a full rebuild but rather retool/rebuild on the fly with keeping Larkin as a centerpiece to help build around. They already have a good prospect pool, a bunch of picks and assets to make trades. There's no point in rebuilding anymore now that they have the assets to trade for spots they need. To fill the holes their prospect pool doesn't I don't think they care for Cossa as much now that they've drafted Augustine. They were in a rebuild already when Yzerman took over - he is now trying to come out of that rebuild. He explained it last summer that it was time to climb out of the basement and strive for the playoffs - that's why he went out and spent on guys like Copp, Perron, Chiarot. It's also in part why he finally changed coach. Edited July 11, 2023 by mll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, mll said: They were in a rebuild already when Yzerman took over - he is now trying to come out of that rebuild. He explained it last summer that it was time to climb out of the basement and strive for the playoffs - that's why he went out and spent on guys like Copp, Perron, Chiarot. It's also in part why he finally changed coach. Those signings were in 2022. What was the thought process behind the Hronek and Bertuzzi trades in 2023? Fits with what they’re trying to build? Contractual reasons? Those were my guesses. I figure they are gonna be more willing to spend assets for quality players now. They had 5 picks in the first two rounds last draft and already had what was considered a good prospect pool prior to this draft. It’s a considerable amount of assets available for use if need be. They spent one first for Debrincat and have another next year. Edited July 11, 2023 by Junkyard Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said: Burt was gone the day after Larkin re-signed and Hronek was traded on the same day. Larkin was emotional in an interview that day. I believe someone may have made a thread about it here. Had they intended to rebuild they wouldn't have re-signed Larkin prior to moving Burt or Hronek. That doesn't align with a full rebuild but rather retool/rebuild on the fly with keeping Larkin as a centerpiece to help build around. They already have a good prospect pool, a bunch of picks and assets to make trades. There's no point in rebuilding anymore now that they have the assets to trade for spots they need. To fill the holes their prospect pool doesn't I don't think they care for Cossa as much now that they've drafted Augustine. Detroit has been bad, and rebuilding cycle has been going on for a long time now. Holland couldn't do it. Yzerman in his very first interview warned the media/fanbase that it was going to take quite a while for them to rebuild. Four years and counting...plus when was Larkin drafted again? It's not an easy job with a lot of other teams needing the top tier talent too in their rebuilding cycle's, this year has a bit of a Beagle/Roussel vibe for Detroit. If they didn't re-sign Larkin .... they'd be even further behind. We didn't need Horvat, and did the best deal available to help our D-core. Detroit went on a massive skid after the Hronek trade, winning only 7 games of 22 games lol. People keep saying Seider is their number one RHD now, that said Hronek also had to do that job at the exact same age (play 23 plus minutes a night) on even worse Detroit teams Their team sure didn't do as well without him. Feels like they've got some more losing ahead of them before the corner is turned, but Yzerman starting the next phase anyways Debricant, well that first...yikes, but suppose it fills a hole for them. And at least the contract will be almost up by the time their prospects are settling into the lineup. JB/Canucks Holland/Detroit started their cycles virtually at the same time. Now we are fighting for the mushy middle and beyond with a core mostly set. They haven't got there yet, at least a couple years behind, it will be interesting to see which core does better at their peak. Edited July 11, 2023 by IBatch 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 7 minutes ago, IBatch said: Detroit has been bad, and rebuilding cycle has been going on for a long time now. Holland couldn't do it. Yzerman in his very first interview warned the media/fanbase that it was going to take quite a while for them to rebuild. Four years and counting...plus when was Larkin drafted again? It's not an easy job with a lot of other teams needing the top tier talent too in their rebuilding cycle's, this year has a bit of a Beagle/Roussel vibe for Detroit. If they didn't re-sign Larkin .... they'd be even further behind. We didn't need Horvat, and did the best deal available to help our D-core. Detroit went on a massive skid after the Hronek trade, winning only 7 games of 22 games lol. People keep saying Seider is their number one RHD. And for sure he is now. Their team sure didn't do as well without him. Feels like they've got some more losing ahead of them before the corner is turned. Debricant, well that first...yikes. DET traded Hronek and Bertuzzi within a 24 hour period and were already sucking. Of course they were gonna continue to suck more. I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t already think that. @mll mentioned that Yzerman was already making moves to come out of a rebuild since 2022 hence my question to him above in regards with the moves of Bert/Hronek in 2023 That first they traded for Debrincat could be the Boston first which is probably a low first. They have the choice to give them either first. Remember they have two next year. I already mentioned that they are probably gonna be a slow rising team. A lot of their prospects are on the cusp and will take time. They also have one of the best prospect pools in the league and can use it as an asset pool in trade. A lot of teams in the East are gonna be on the come downs in 2-3 years where I see teams like Ottawa/DET/BUF on the rise. Time will tell. More needs to be done. Any judgements now aren’t really gonna be concrete or comprehensive. We’re just spitballing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now