The Wayne Gretzky Discussion Thread

[Gnarcore]

From social media just meow: 

 

Quote

When he was 14, Wayne Gretzky moved from his small hometown to play in a more competitive hockey league in Toronto.

He was undersized and during the first practice, he got pushed around.

After practice, his coach pulled him aside.

“When you go home tonight,” the coach said,

“the Toronto Maple Leafs are playing the Philadelphia Flyers—watch Bobby Clarke play.”

Bobby Clarke was an undersized player on the Flyers who went on to be inducted into the NHL Hall of Fame.

“He's not very big,” Gretzky’s coach told him, “but he's very smart.”

“And I studied him and I studied him and I studied him,” Gretzky said.

“I would take out a piece of paper and draw a rink and then without looking at the paper, I’d watch the hockey game on TV, and I would take my pen and I’d follow the puck.”

When Clarke got off the ice, Gretzky would look down at the paper and look for patterns.

He began to notice two things.

First, that Clarke “played the game mostly out of the corners.” Second, that players almost never went behind the net.

So, Gretzky said, “I started playing out of the corner and from behind the net…I started using the net as a decoy. Consequently, I wasn’t standing in front of the net, getting knocked over, and being on my keister the whole time.”

[Kevin Biestra]

18 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The Oilers won a cup in 1990.  I watched every game.  It was wonderful to see them win again after we were out.   Guess who won the Conn Smythe and why.  After 1993, it was the best goalie performance i've ever seen.    CAL had an awesome team in the 80's too, the rare time EDM slipped, they went to the final one loss one win.   The year after EDM traded Gretzky, he beat them head to head.   Losing Coffey and then Gretzky was a massive thing back then.   The 1990 Oilers was a testament to how great that team was, but also, like Quick with LA, something you should know about, they simply don't win without Ranford.   Guy was shell shocked and making one amazing save after the other.   The 1990 Oilers were nothing at all, like the their peak.   It's too bad they didn't keep the band together EDM, but not the league.   They reversed the 4 x 4 rule after they disbanded.   Imagine been so good they had to make a rule to punish you.    That's Gretzky.   

 

Mario.  He was great too.   You won't give up I get that, but i'm sorry man, watched both of them, i'd pick prime Gretzky every single time first.    In LA he had a lot less to work with.   Took a 100 point guy and made him a 150 point guy.  

 

Heh another reason I'm on the Bernie Nicholls for the Hall of Fame train.  Even when Gretzky was scoring 200 every year he never made a 150 or even 140 point player out of anyone else.  Then Bernie gets 150 when Wayne only got 168 or something.  Imagine if Bernie had been on the Oilers during Gretzky's pure heyday.  No guarantees but he might have been otherworldly...not beyond belief to think he would have scored 170 points or better in a season.

 

Oh well...all what ifs.  Dave Babych on the Oilers blueline in his pre-Canuck years is what I really like to picture.  Would have been Brad Park to Coffey's Bobby Orr.

 

Messier and Coffey would have been superstars I think without Gretzky but it's also hard to guess accurately what they would have been without the effect of Gretzky in the early years to develop them into the players they became.  I think it benefited Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, etc. that they were one or two years less experienced than Gretzky and got to enter into that situation being somewhat established.  I don't know if any other team had that much talent all within about two years in age and experience grow together and just learn from guys like Lee Fogolin at the start.  The fact that they were all the same age makes it all the more unfortunate that they couldn't have been kept together.  They really could have all played together at a high level from about 1981 to 1994.  Even longer than that for everyone but Anderson and Kurri.  The sky was the limit.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Heh another reason I'm on the Bernie Nicholls for the Hall of Fame train.  Even when Gretzky was scoring 200 every year he never made a 150 or even 140 point player out of anyone else.  Then Bernie gets 150 when Wayne only got 168 or something.  Imagine if Bernie had been on the Oilers during Gretzky's pure heyday.  No guarantees but he might have been otherworldly...not beyond belief to think he would have scored 170 points or better in a season.

 

Oh well...all what ifs.  Dave Babych on the Oilers blueline in his pre-Canuck years is what I really like to picture.  Would have been Brad Park to Coffey's Bobby Orr.

 

Messier and Coffey would have been superstars I think without Gretzky but it's also hard to guess accurately what they would have been without the effect of Gretzky in the early years to develop them into the players they became.  I think it benefited Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, etc. that they were one or two years less experienced than Gretzky and got to enter into that situation being somewhat established.  I don't know if any other team had that much talent all within about two years in age and experience grow together and just learn from guys like Lee Fogolin at the start.  The fact that they were all the same age makes it all the more unfortunate that they couldn't have been kept together.  They really could have all played together at a high level from about 1981 to 1994.  Longer for everyone but Anderson and Kurri.  The sky was the limit.

 

Yes.  Gretzky, Messier and Coffey have commented on how many more cups they'd have won if they could have kept them together throughout their primes.   Crazy to think how young they were doing what they did.   Ive mentioned before, if you take Gretzky out of the 80's completely ... would it have been any different than the 70's?  Nope.  High water mark was actually 1981 as far as scoring goes.    Take Mario out too.   It would be just garden variety star stuff.   Coffey proved he was a superstar as did Messier.    
 

How many times did the Oilers score over 400 goals?   A lot.   Crazy.   Now 300 is considered a lot, and has been since the late 90's. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

12 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

From social media just meow: 

 

His book is amazing.   Modest to the point where it's a little annoying because he never once talks about records this records that.  Instead he goes through the history of hockey, up to his era, and past his era.   Guys for sure a savant.   Didn't try to do things his body couldn't do.   Bobby Clarke could be one mean piece of crap.   Not sure Gretzky took notes about that.   How to slash someone hard enough to break an ankle.  

 

 

[Ghostsof1915]

This is the state of the league with 21 teams in 1986-87.

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1987.html

 

Notice anything? Only 9 out of the 21 teams had above .500 records.

 

The Leafs and Kings got in with 70 points, and 32, and 31 wins respectively. They made the playoffs with a .438 winning percentage.

 

The superstars feasted on the bottom feeders. Look at the Norris Division. 4 playoff teams and not one of them at or above .500.

 

There's a reason a lot of Gretzky's records were against Vancouver. He lit our team up almost every game we played against them.

 

 

[IBatch]

23 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Heh another reason I'm on the Bernie Nicholls for the Hall of Fame train.  Even when Gretzky was scoring 200 every year he never made a 150 or even 140 point player out of anyone else.  Then Bernie gets 150 when Wayne only got 168 or something.  Imagine if Bernie had been on the Oilers during Gretzky's pure heyday.  No guarantees but he might have been otherworldly...not beyond belief to think he would have scored 170 points or better in a season.

 

Oh well...all what ifs.  Dave Babych on the Oilers blueline in his pre-Canuck years is what I really like to picture.  Would have been Brad Park to Coffey's Bobby Orr.

 

Messier and Coffey would have been superstars I think without Gretzky but it's also hard to guess accurately what they would have been without the effect of Gretzky in the early years to develop them into the players they became.  I think it benefited Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, etc. that they were one or two years less experienced than Gretzky and got to enter into that situation being somewhat established.  I don't know if any other team had that much talent all within about two years in age and experience grow together and just learn from guys like Lee Fogolin at the start.  The fact that they were all the same age makes it all the more unfortunate that they couldn't have been kept together.  They really could have all played together at a high level from about 1981 to 1994.  Longer for everyone but Anderson and Kurri.  The sky was the limit.

 

The closest was Kurri.   Who was usually second or third or fourth in scoring with someone like Dionne (super underrated guy ... if he played with MTL instead of Lafluer i'm sure he'd have scored 1000 goals, and over 2000 points), Bossy, Hawerchuk or Stastny, and one boffo Yzerman year.    Don't disagree.  

 

Robataille also owes some things to Gretzky.    A lot of people owe a lot to him really.     To me Mario got his massive talent too.  Francis.  Jagr.  Coffey.   Murphy.   Stevens.  Rechhi.   But also had periods (like Gretzky), where he didn't have much.   Same thing could be said about Crosby.   He didn't get a Backstrom like Ovi did.   He usually played with some nobody and a name he was making like Guenztal.   The best players, make good players better.  And ok players good.    Nicholls ... that was a travesty of epic proportions.   After having his boffo season, asked the owners/GM if he would be safe to buy a home.   They said "absolutely!" ... so he did and then got traded.   I'm sure if that wasn't done, he'd be in the HHOF already, and Gretzky would be well over 3000 points which seems gaudy because it is.   So is his actual point score.   

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

18 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

This is the state of the league with 21 teams in 1986-87.

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1987.html

 

Notice anything? Only 9 out of the 21 teams had above .500 records.

 

The Leafs and Kings got in with 70 points, and 32, and 31 wins respectively. They made the playoffs with a .438 winning percentage.

 

The superstars feasted on the bottom feeders. Look at the Norris Division. 4 playoff teams and not one of them at or above .500.

 

There's a reason a lot of Gretzky's records were against Vancouver. He lit our team up almost every game we played against them.

 

 

There for sure were great teams, and then the rest.   But at least those other teams got to play in the playoffs.  Unlike now where 50% doesn't make it.   And it's so vanilla that the last "play-in" team in MTL who was 21 at that point ... makes the final just to get destroyed. 

 

Edit:  And now we have teams miss for over a decade!  That's a travesty. 

 

Even CAR missed 9 years in a row. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[Ghostsof1915]

Just now, IBatch said:

There for sure were great teams, and then the rest.   But at least those other teams got to play in the playoffs.  Unlike now where 50% doesn't make it.   An it's so vanilla that the last "play-in" team in MTL who was 21 at that point ... makes the final just to get destroyed. 

Might have been different if Price and Weber could have been in once piece, by the Finals. It was still one hell of a run. I really wanted Weber to win a cup.

[IBatch]

15 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Might have been different if Price and Weber could have been in once piece, by the Finals. It was still one hell of a run. I really wanted Weber to win a cup.

Me too.   And was rooting for them both. 

 

Edit:  Hockey writers were comparing Doughty to Brad Park for years and going completely ape shit  because he scored a couple goals in the Olympics.   And completely ignoring the actual, real Brad Park, who of course was Weber.   I'd build a team around Weber before Doughty. 

 

Edit:  How many partners did he make great?  Or help.  How many did Doughty.... To me Doughty is overrated.   He's good yes, but he isn't Shea Weber good.   Pouty Doughty ... 1058 giveaways and counting.   Minus magnet might be over ... a few  more years maybe he will catch up Dave Babych and other guys who aren't in the HHOF.

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Could have let Linden take a shot too.  He scored Canada's only goal in the game with one minute left to send it to overtime.  Classic Game 7 Linden stuff.

Reminds me of an old Pat Riley quote:  "If the game was on the line, there's only one person I'd want to take that shot.  Michael Jordan.  However, if my life was on the line, I'd want Larry Bird to take that shot".

[IBatch]

8 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Reminds me of an old Pat Riley quote:  "If the game was on the line, there's only one person I'd want to take that shot.  Michael Jordan.  However, if my life was on the line, I'd want Larry Bird to take that shot".

Same thing goes with Patrick Roy.   Game 7 goalie.   Pick him first. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

47 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The closest was Kurri.   Who was usually second or third or fourth in scoring with someone like Dionne (super underrated guy ... if he played with MTL instead of Lafluer i'm sure he'd have scored 1000 goals, and over 2000 points), Bossy, Hawerchuk or Stastny, and one boffo Yzerman year.    Don't disagree.  

 

Robataille also owes some things to Gretzky.    A lot of people owe a lot to him really.     To me Mario got his massive talent too.  Francis.  Jagr.  Coffey.   Murphy.   Stevens.  Rechhi.   But also had periods (like Gretzky), where he didn't have much.   Same thing could be said about Crosby.   He didn't get a Backstrom like Ovi did.   He usually played with some nobody and a name he was making like Guenztal.   The best players, make good players better.  And ok players good.    Nicholls ... that was a travesty of epic proportions.   After having his boffo season, asked the owners/GM if he would be safe to buy a home.   They said "absolutely!" ... so he did and then got traded.   I'm sure if that wasn't done, he'd be in the HHOF already, and Gretzky would be well over 3000 points which seems gaudy because it is.   So is his actual point score.   

 

The crazy thing is Paul Coffey actually scored more points in a season than Kurri, Messier, etc. ever did or anyone else on Gretzky's Oilers.  None of them ever matched his 138.

 

Mario also had Joe Mullen as well...the forgotten Hall of Famer on both the Flames and Penguins teams.

[Gnarcore]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

His book is amazing.   Modest to the point where it's a little annoying because he never once talks about records this records that.  Instead he goes through the history of hockey, up to his era, and past his era.   Guys for sure a savant.   Didn't try to do things his body couldn't do.   Bobby Clarke could be one mean piece of crap.   Not sure Gretzky took notes about that.   How to slash someone hard enough to break an ankle.  

 

 

My dad played against Bobby when they were kids in Manitoba. Said he was a mean little shit even back then. 

[IBatch]

Just for fun.  Because this is a Gretzky thread.  He won 9 Hart trophies his first ten years, the one he didn't win Mario won,  but it was also an injury plagued season for Gretzky.   He won the following year.  8 years in a row is a record that likely never is broken, yet it's not even seen as one of his records that are impossible to beat.    Mario won 3.  

 

Art Ross.  He won ten.  Average points?  195.5.  Yikes!    McDavid.  Anyone?  Mario!  Nope.  (Edit: he also should have co-owned one his rookie year..at 18 he was denied the Calder because of the WHA stuff .. tied Dionne, a couple less goals .. but won a Hart anyways.   Who else has won a Hart at 18?!    ... if he was given that Art Ross, because less games, or at least co-owned it, would lower his average, but bring it up to 11... how many do we think McDavid will win?  5-7 maybe.)

 

 

50 goals in 38 games.    Good luck!   Try doing that at age 20... good grief that was Gretzky though.     Makes hyperbole seem silly.   Alien.  Probably. 

 

163 assists in 85-86.   Mario was second in scoring with 141 points.    So he had 22 more assists plus could score 50 plus goals (plus 71 lol)  ... then the second highest scorer.    And he didn't feast on the power play.   Was also a PKer....

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

20 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

The crazy thing is Paul Coffey actually scored more points in a season than Kurri, Messier, etc. ever did or anyone else on Gretzky's Oilers.  None of them ever matched his 138.

 

Mario also had Joe Mullen as well...the forgotten Hall of Famer on both the Flames and Penguins teams.

Gretzky buzz was impossible to not get pulled into as a kid.   But Coffey was the guy I liked watching the most.   Still unsure how he could take two or three steps then speed up while gliding.   Everyone else kept pushing and pushing off their blades to go faster (power skating)... Coffey was just amazing.   I do think if you match him with all of Orr's seasons, he actually kept up.   Boston was a freaking powerhouse but only won two cups.  One of the best teams all-time.    Still don't think any team matched how many 20 goal plus scorers they had.  

 

Edit:  Also wonder what Coffey would have managed as a winger.   Didn't get to see Orr play.  So wouldn't dare to say he was as good.   But i haven't watched a better skater since.   That includes Bure, Selanne, Federov etc. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[Elias Pettersson]

3 hours ago, shiznak said:

Again, Jagr and Francis played with him when he was already hampered with back problems and never really played a full 84 game season with him. They never had the luxury of playing with Mario when he was remotely healthy. Gretzky had the luxury of playing with Hall of Famers, for the majority of his career; Anderson, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Robitaille, Blake, Hull, Leetch, etc

 

Heck, that Oilers team even won a Cup without the Great One leading them. I think if you take away Mario away from those back-to-back Cup winning Pens teams. I doubt they would have won. Both times they barely snuck by the first round. That Oilers dynasty was just too good and not because of Gretzky.

Mario was the epitome of North-South hockey. How many times have you seen him get the puck in transition and just deke through both defenders and the goalie? One of the best hands during that era. There’s a reason why he got the magnificent one moniker from his peers. Dude could just stick handle in the offensive zone for days.

Here’s a video from The Hockey Guy, who does a great overview of Mario career. He even mentioned why people would think Mario is better than Gretzky. 
 

 

 

 

The hockey guy says Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time. So this kind of puts a mic drop on your entire argument…

 

 

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The hockey guy says Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time. So this kind of puts a mic drop on your entire argument…

 

 

Mic Drop for sure.   Anyways .. 61 records some have been broken.   The guy was so good, we had to pick goals or assists doing our hockey pools.  And he often had more assists than second place! 

[IBatch]

31 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The hockey guy says Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time. So this kind of puts a mic drop on your entire argument…

 

 

He actually made a mistake.  The Hockey Guy.  The lockout wasn't in 92-93.   That was Wayne's back that kept him out that year, not a lockout.  He almost retired.     Not to take anything away from the video, but that data isn't correct.   

 

Edit: Sorry Hockey Guy corrected himself.   Said it was his back injury.  A little surprised that he didn't know the exact date of the lock out half season... Lindros won the Hart, Coffey his last Norris (14 seasons into his career). 

Edited August 14, 2023 by IBatch

[NewbieCanuckFan]

29 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Gretzky buzz was impossible to not get pulled into as a kid.   But Coffey was the guy I liked watching the most.   Still unsure how he could take two or three steps then speed up while gliding.   Everyone else kept pushing and pushing off their blades to go faster (power skating)... Coffey was just amazing.   I do think if you match him with all of Orr's seasons, he actually kept up.   Boston was a freaking powerhouse but only won two cups.  One of the best teams all-time.    Still don't think any team matched how many 20 goal plus scorers they had.  

 

Edit:  Also wonder what Coffey would have managed as a winger.   Didn't get to see Orr play.  So wouldn't dare to say he was as good.   But i haven't watched a better skater since.   That includes Bure, Selanne, Federov etc. 

Problem with Orr is he didn't take the "Franco Harris" mode of thinking that prolonged "Franco's Army" career.  He would often run out of bounds instead of 'taking the hit' to get an extra yard (imho).  Reason why the great Jim Brown didn't like his way of playing.  Orr was like that.  He wouldn't try to avoid a hit but take the hit when carrying the puck.  It cost him (accumulated damage to his knees as player went to take him out).

Edited August 14, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Mic Drop for sure.   Anyways .. 61 records some have been broken.   The guy was so good, we had to pick goals or assists doing our hockey pools.  And he often had more assists than second place! 

The hockey guy pointed out that Wayne Gretzky scored his first 1000 points in only 426 games, which is the all-time record for fastest to 1000.  But then he points out that Gretzky scored his 2nd 1000 points in 433 games, which is the 2nd fastest of all time, only 2nd to Gretzky himself.  That is pretty unbelievable if you think about it.  Gretzky's 2nd 1000 points, from 1000 to 2000 is still the fastest to 1000 points in the history of the NHL if you eliminate Gretzky's first 1000 points from the conversation.

 

Another thing he mentioned was that Gretzky led the league in assists when he played for the Rangers, which was in the late 1990's when Gretzky was 36 years old.  He had 72 assists and 97 points at 36 years old in 1997.  He finished 4th in scoring that year, more points than a 24 year old Jagr, 25 year old Sundin, 23 year old Forsberg.  In 1998, the year before he retired and at 37 years old, he had 90 points, which again was 4th in the entire NHL, only one point behind second place Forsberg and only 12 points behind Jagr who won the scoring title.  So, at 37 years old, he was still one of the best players in the entire NHL...