The Wayne Gretzky Discussion Thread

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Ray Bourque

Paul Coffey

Rocket Richard

Patrick Roy

Terry Sawchuk

Jacques Plantes

Phil Esposito

 

I would have them and probably a few more (e.g. Bobby Hull, Doug Harvey) ahead of your second tier candidates except maybe Crosby.

 

Yes, I have Bourque and Coffey ahead of Lidstrom.  Probably Potvin too.  I'd also have Jagr in the top 10 of all time...

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Yes, I have Bourque and Coffey ahead of Lidstrom.  Probably Potvin too.  I'd also have Jagr in the top 10 of all time...

I forget Bourque led his club to all those Cups. Sorry Bourque fans. Can’t be considered a great unless gave led your club to at least one Cup. 

[Kevin Biestra]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I forget Bourque led his club to all those Cups. Sorry Bourque fans. Can’t be considered a great unless gave led your club to at least one Cup. 

 

Aside from the Avalanche cup, he led the Bruins to two finals that they would have won against any team but Gretzky's Oilers.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

People often forget that Gretzky's decline started with this infamous hit:

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I forget Bourque led his club to all those Cups. Sorry Bourque fans. Can’t be considered a great unless gave led your club to at least one Cup. 

If Bourque played with Yzerman, Fedorov and Datsyuk he'd probably have 4 cups too...

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

If Bourque played with Yzerman, Fedorov and Datsyuk he'd probably have 4 cups too...

No necessarily. The fact is Bourque didn’t lead his club to a Cup. He moved to the Avs and won a Cup in a supporting role. IMHAO Bourque is in a category of the lesser greats that included guys like Dionne and Lindros. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Alflives

[shiznak]

Lemieux is better than Gretzky, fight me internet.

[shiznak]

36 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Yes, I have Bourque and Coffey ahead of Lidstrom.  Probably Potvin too.  I'd also have Jagr in the top 10 of all time...

Neither Bourque or Coffey were great in their own end, average at best. Plus, they started to decline near the tail end of their careers. 
 

Lidstrom is considered the best two-way defensemen in the history of the game. Even in his later years, he was still elite. 

[allegend]

Picking the top 10 NHL (or NBA) players of all time is difficult. One has to consider positions played,

different eras, rule changes, longevity, personal stats and accolades, team championships, etc.

Picking a top 15 or 20 is much easier. My personal top 5 would have Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Howe,

and Crosby. 

[King Heffy]

50 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Yes, I have Bourque and Coffey ahead of Lidstrom.  Probably Potvin too.

I'd add Robinson to that list.  Lidstrom wasn't even the best defenceman on his team for most of the Red Wings dynasty.

[-AJ-]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Gretzky 

Orr

Howe

Mario

Belliveau

Messier

 

Who is next? Lidstrom, Hasek, Crosby? 

Most notable name missing is Jagr IMO.

[-AJ-]

36 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Lemieux is better than Gretzky, fight me internet.

I'd say Lemieux was more physically gifted, but Gretzky had the edge mentally.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, -AJ- said:

I'd say Lemieux was more physically gifted, but Gretzky had the edge mentally.

Mario had a bad back and then got cancer. But he was still able to lead his club to two Cups. True greatness is leading the team to a cup. Mario dud that, where others (who some consider great, but they’re a tier below the true greats)

[-AJ-]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Mario had a bad back and then got cancer. But he was still able to lead his club to two Cups. True greatness is leading the team to a cup. Mario dud that, where others (who some consider great, but they’re a tier below the true greats)

In my mind, this is an antiquated viewpoint. When the NHL had six or maybe twelve teams, it was important, but the modern game is so much more team-oriented and parity-filled that I don't think it's reasonable to require a player to drag a team to the Cup in order to be considered great. I measure a team's greatness by playoff success, but I measure an individual on his own individual success. To measure a player's greatness by his Cups is to use the wrong measuring stick IMO. It's still important to assess playoff performance, but it's best to measure performance on an individual level when considering individual greatness. It's akin to trying to use a ruler to judge the heaviest apple.

[Ghostsof1915]

Gretzky had insane vision, and probably read the play better than any other hockey player.

He was partly a product of his time. The transition from just guys who played hockey part of the year, to full time, year around play hockey and practice, hitting the gym.

However a lot of his numbers are because he was ahead of the curve. We went from players working summer jobs, then taking training camps to get into shape.

To even smoking between periods. Only the dedicated hit the gym all the time.

Lets look at a sample of goalies in the 1980's/90's

 

John Garrett, 5'8" 175 lbs.

Richard Brodeur. 5'7" 185 lbs.

Billy Smith, 5'10" 175 lbs.

Bob Essensa, a giant at 6'0" 185 lbs.

Pelle Lindbergh, 5'9" 170 lbs.

 

Combine this with stand up goalie style, smaller pads.

Defensive systems? What's that?

Most players in the 1980's early 1990's scored career highs.

Steve Yzerman scored 155 points in 1988-89.

Brett Hull 86 goals, 45 assists for 131 points 1990-91

 

Now one could argue Gretzky's numbers were so insane that things changed in the league to cut those numbers down.

Butterfly style goaltending. Bigger goalies.

Defensive, clutch and grab, and trap hockey.

Basically the league changed to reduce the impact a player like Gretzky could do.

 

I'm not saying he wasn't a phenomenal player. But I am saying he was the right player, at the right time.

And it's doubtful we will ever see an transitional era like that again.

 

[Elias Pettersson]

51 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Lemieux is better than Gretzky, fight me internet.

In what way was he better?  Gretzky holds all the statistical records. And he also won more cups, more Hart trophies, more Art Ross trophies, same number of Conn Smythe trophies. 
 

Is there even one area where Lemieux was better?

[Elias Pettersson]

16 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Mario had a bad back and then got cancer. But he was still able to lead his club to two Cups. True greatness is leading the team to a cup. Mario dud that, where others (who some consider great, but they’re a tier below the true greats)

So is Henri Richard the greatest hockey player ever?  He won 11 cups. 

[Ghostsof1915]

Take Gretzky and throw him into the 50s/60s/70's he would have struggled big time with the physical play.  He played a very different style of game.

As I stated his vision, and reading of the play was insane, almost supernatural. But he was a superior player at a transitional time.

Take Lemieux and put him in any era and he'd be dominant, but hopefully cancer free. Same goes for Howe.

 

You can be a dominant player. Break tons of records. But I doubt you will ever see a high flying era like the 80's and early 90's ever again.

 

 

[shiznak]

16 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

In what way was he better?  Gretzky holds all the statistical records. And he also won more cups, more Hart trophies, more Art Ross trophies, same number of Conn Smythe trophies. 
 

Is there even one area where Lemieux was better?

Considering Gretzky said himself that Lemieux was more talented and a better goal scorer than he was. I’d take his words over yours.

 

Lemieux made guys like Rob Brown, Randy Cunneyworth, Dan Quinn, Kevin Stevens, etc point per game players and they never eclipsed those marks after they left Pittsburgh.