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Can Raymond Re Define Himself?


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#151 CanuckFan1981

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:41 PM

I didn't say it was a sympathy signing, I am saying that those that have sympathy and think we should sign based off that are out to lunch.

To answer the rest, I fear Raymond coming back to haunt us about as much as Wellwood. If he proves me wrong, power to him, but his whole time here, all I have seen is where a scoring chance goes to die.


Fair enough. You did not say "Raymond is a sympathy signing". I think it is a very fair signing and Gilles worked a little off his cap hit. He did get 25 goals, so it is fair to assume he could do it again (maybe more, fingers crossed), since he is only about 27.I somewhat agree with your statement that "he is where scoring chances go to die". Anybody who watches has seen him create amazing chances only to be stymied. But at least he creates chances. Sooner or later they will probably start finding the back of the net. It wasn't until about Martin St. Louis 7th or 8th season that he started becoming a point a game player. I just think it is way too early to say he is garbage and a waste of a roster spot as so many have indicated.

#152 TimberWolf

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:42 PM

The discussion isn't over. It's just that the thread is titled "Can Raymond redefine himself?" not "Should Raymond be paid more because of his injury?". Something you seem to have missed out when you started complaining about your own job.


I was responding to someone that tried to play the "I'd like to see you do better" card, like they used to do with Cloutier. I didn't buy it then, and I don't now. I was also not complaining about my job. My point is that you either get better and do your job or be replaced by someone that can. World is not fair.

Your post was just a bunch of trash about how you are an elite fan compared to everyone else mixed with a bunch of swearing and assorted insults and E-thugging. If you believe that is contribution to a debate, you are mistaken.

Edited by TimberWolf, 10 July 2012 - 01:47 PM.

I was saying Lu-Urns...

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#153 .Naslund

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:46 PM

This is (it should be!) his last chance to prove he can be a Canuck, and I hope he has a stellar year. Raymond was one of my favorite Canucks the past couple of years and I hope he can get you guys back on the bandwagon as well haha.

That being said, if he does have a great year, he better take a discount to play here after, because we've given him so many chances, and more money than he's worth.
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#154 westcoast

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:49 PM

The best he's played was the Chicago series awhile back.

#155 TimberWolf

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:49 PM

This is (it should be!) his last chance to prove he can be a Canuck, and I hope he has a stellar year. Raymond was one of my favorite Canucks the past couple of years and I hope he can get you guys back on the bandwagon as well haha.


Absolutely he can. If he scores 25 goals (at least 10 of the clutch kind), I'll gladly eat my words. I want the team to win a million times more then to be proven right about some players.

I was saying Lu-Urns...

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#156 SamJamIam

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:54 PM

I was responding to someone that tried to play the "I'd like to see you do better" card, like they used to do with Cloutier. I didn't buy it then, and I don't now.

Your post was just a bunch of trash about how you are an elite fan compared to everyone else mixed with a bunch of swearing and assorted insults and E-thugging. If you believe that is contribution to a debate, you are mistaken.


Cool story. But I think you forgot about the part where you completely diverted the conversation away from "Mayray was injured and that affected his play" to saying how downtrodden you are yet still go to work. Because those two things are complete analogs of one another. So you stop using a hockey player's injury as a lead in for how you deserve sympathy, and I'll stop saying how you're self-aggrandizing by associating your situation with that of said player. K?

#157 TimberWolf

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:04 PM

Cool story. But I think you forgot about the part where you completely diverted the conversation away from "Mayray was injured and that affected his play" to saying how downtrodden you are yet still go to work. Because those two things are complete analogs of one another. So you stop using a hockey player's injury as a lead in for how you deserve sympathy, and I'll stop saying how you're self-aggrandizing by associating your situation with that of said player. K?



Hah, I am not looking for any sympathy, nor tried to divert to conversation. My point is that MayRay is a Pro athlete and paid well to be so. Weather or not any poster on here could come back from the same injury in their respective lives is a non issue as I responded.

For the record, no one on here should care about my back in any way shape or form, sorry if anyone thought that was what I was going for, because it certainly was not.

For the final time, I am pointing out that you should care about my back injury about as much as his, RE: NOT AT ALL. Only should care if he can do the job. Not saying not to sympathize with him as a human, but you want the best product on the ice, period. If his injury holds the Canucks back, then he must be replaced.

I was saying Lu-Urns...

star-wars-hockey-goal.gif?w=284

#158 hockeyking

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:35 PM

Hah, I am not looking for any sympathy, nor tried to divert to conversation. My point is that MayRay is a Pro athlete and paid well to be so. Weather or not any poster on here could come back from the same injury in their respective lives is a non issue as I responded.

For the record, no one on here should care about my back in any way shape or form, sorry if anyone thought that was what I was going for, because it certainly was not.

For the final time, I am pointing out that you should care about my back injury about as much as his, RE: NOT AT ALL. Only should care if he can do the job. Not saying not to sympathize with him as a human, but you want the best product on the ice, period. If his injury holds the Canucks back, then he must be replaced.


according to that manny and Kesler should have no excuse for there bad season too right because we shouldn't be making double standards now,

Edited by hockeyking, 10 July 2012 - 02:36 PM.


#159 SamJamIam

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:40 PM

For the final time, I am pointing out that you should care about my back injury about as much as his, RE: NOT AT ALL. Only should care if he can do the job. Not saying not to sympathize with him as a human, but you want the best product on the ice, period. If his injury holds the Canucks back, then he must be replaced.


The problem is they are human beings. Money is not their sole or even most important motivator. It's a team sport for a reason. The organization and the other players have to have their backs (no pun intended). Dumping Mayray for a bad season after a snapped back is not something you do. That doesn't define you as a performance-first team and it certainly won't make the players produce more. It'll send a message that the team only cares about you as long as you do well. That's a very "no carrot, all stick" mentality. It never works, and once you've made your whole team feel like garbage because of it, you'll find that not only will you have trouble re-signing them, you'll have even more trouble finding people from other teams who want to sign for you.

#160 TimberWolf

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:48 PM

according to that manny and Kesler should have no excuse for there bad season too right because we shouldn't be making double standards now,




I'll bite for fun, in small defense of those two, they were playing some fine hockey before their injuries (Raymond was not), but yes, IF they cannot get it together and continually degrade, then we will have to upgrade to to stay competitive with our opponents. Manny, I feel the worst for, awful injury, but you can only go so far with that.

Edited by TimberWolf, 10 July 2012 - 02:49 PM.

I was saying Lu-Urns...

star-wars-hockey-goal.gif?w=284

#161 SamJamIam

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:55 PM

I'll bite for fun, in small defense of those two, they were playing some fine hockey before their injuries (Raymond was not), but yes, IF they cannot get it together and continually degrade, then we will have to upgrade to to stay competitive with our opponents. Manny, I feel the worst for, awful injury, but you can only go so far with that.


Doctor, he's coding! He has an acute case of Videogame-GM-itis!

#162 hockeyking

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:02 PM

I'll bite for fun, in small defense of those two, they were playing some fine hockey before their injuries (Raymond was not), but yes, IF they cannot get it together and continually degrade, then we will have to upgrade to to stay competitive with our opponents. Manny, I feel the worst for, awful injury, but you can only go so far with that.


your welling to let them get it together but not raymond because of there injuries. Plus Keslers was less worse.

I would have to ask a doctor to see which one is worse raymond's injury or Manny's injury to comeback from

Edited by hockeyking, 10 July 2012 - 03:04 PM.


#163 wrath_jason

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:08 PM

So, they signed him for one more year. I suspect he will be traded sometime in the next 6 months....

#164 Bang Bang Boogie

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:28 PM

Raymond will be given his chance. If he doesn't perform, I see him being traded at the deadline.
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#165 King of the ES

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:37 PM

Yes.

I've heard that his goal over the summer is to put on 50 lbs., and re-invent himself as this team's enforcer.

#166 hockeyking

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 04:02 PM

Raymond will be given his chance. If he doesn't perform, I see him being traded at the deadline.

this

#167 pghockeyguy

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 04:22 PM

Raymond is exactly what we don't need on this team. Small,weak,soft, low skill level,tunnel vision and did I say soft? Sure he is fast but if you can't stay on your feet or get to the net its pretty much useless. Plus their is no place in the line up for him. He is not a first liner. He is not a second liner. We are trying to get bigger and stronger in the bottom 6 so he doesn't fit there. I just really hope he gets packaged in whatever deal we end up making for Loungo

#168 TimberWolf

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 04:33 PM

Doctor, he's coding! He has an acute case of Videogame-GM-itis!


Do you mean me? Because I am pretty sure I did not make a post where I traded Ballard, mayray and a 3rd for Weber.

your welling to let them get it together but not raymond because of there injuries. Plus Keslers was less worse.

I would have to ask a doctor to see which one is worse raymond's injury or Manny's injury to comeback from


I said the opposite. Kesler and manny need just as much a hard look, unfortunately. They only get a touch more patience because of what they were doing before they went down. Kesler was a runnaway selke winner with a nose for the net and Manny was arguably the best 3rd line center in the league. Raymond at full health had 39 points in 70 games and 2 goals in our cup run.

It needs to be a short leash, though, agree with you there.

I was saying Lu-Urns...

star-wars-hockey-goal.gif?w=284

#169 cmccomb

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:12 AM

Fair enough. You did not say "Raymond is a sympathy signing". I think it is a very fair signing and Gilles worked a little off his cap hit. He did get 25 goals, so it is fair to assume he could do it again (maybe more, fingers crossed), since he is only about 27.I somewhat agree with your statement that "he is where scoring chances go to die". Anybody who watches has seen him create amazing chances only to be stymied. But at least he creates chances. Sooner or later they will probably start finding the back of the net. It wasn't until about Martin St. Louis 7th or 8th season that he started becoming a point a game player. I just think it is way too early to say he is garbage and a waste of a roster spot as so many have indicated.


The only problem is that Raymond isn't built like St.Louis. Smaller guys with wheels, if they're stocky enough, have a low center of gravity and can be hard to knock off the puck (St.Louis and Raymond basically weight the same, the key difference is height). Guys like Raymond that are tall and have no mass can't cut to the middle of the ice. Maybe Raymond can get stronger, but unless he actually puts on weight, he's going to get nowhere.

Having said that, at 2.2, we get him at less and because the cap went up 10%, we getting him at a decent discount from last year. I'm not sold on Raymond and I think at this point he's a waste of a roster spot, but for 2.2 million with a cap limit of 70, he's cheap enough to gamble on I suppose.




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