HiFiclub Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I was around to see Gretz/Messier and company in their glory days with the Oilers so I was definitely around to see Mess with the Canucks. You are confused and actually making my point for me. In this confused state you resort to saying things like "you weren't around, or you didn't watch hockey back then". You say Mess was most dominant physically when he was younger. So what exactly is your argument? Perhaps I should remind you that I'm the one saying Doan is too old to sign to a 4 year $6 per year contract. You are the one who is arguing Doan will be physical when he's 39 years old. I gave you example of Mess being one of the most physical and meanest players of his generation who's age caught up to him like it has caught up to every living being to have ever lived. If Messier, who is one of the most driven, meanest and accomplished players in the history of the NHL couldn't keep his physical play up when he got older what makes you think a player who has never accomplished anything significant in the NHL can? You claim Messier didn't have the drive to win later on in his career. But Doan does. You fail to recognise it was Messier's age not his drive that was the problem when he was with the Canucks. What has Doan shown you to make you believe he is at all driven to win a Stanley Cup. He stayed in PHX because he likes the hot weather when he knew there is next to zero chance of winning. His number one choice is still to stay in PHX where he is unlikely to win a cup. He only wants to stay in PHX because he likes the city and the lifestyle it offers him. It has nothing to do with having drive to win a Cup. To bring up Gordie Howe as an example to say Doan will be a physical player when he's 38 or 39 years old should make it very clear to you how desperate your arguement is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everybody Hates Raymond Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 This is the second time someone has brought one of my proposals into an argument just so that person can get out of it. That's pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Why don't you counter his argument instead of calling him pathetic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Standing_Tall#37 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Why don't you counter his argument instead of calling him pathetic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Seriously I believe what Miller says usually and he is right all the time. How do you fracking know Messier tried his best during his time in Vancouver???? I seriously dont think Messier give a damn when he was playing for Vancouver. YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE UP SOME EXCUSE FOR HIM?? Was he really aging???? WHY THE FK did he sign with Rangers again after he left Canucks. AGE WAS NOT THE MAIN FACTOR WHEN HE WAS IN VANCOUVER. HE WAS ALL ABOUT THE $$$ ONLY. I AM SURE HE IS PROBABLY GOING TO WIN THE MOST HATED GUY WHO EVER PLAYED FOR THE CANUCKS BEFORE. WHAT A MESS! 1997-98 Vancouver Canucks NHL 82 22 38 60 58 -10 -- -- -- -- -- 1998-99 Vancouver Canucks NHL 59 13 35 48 33 -12 -- -- -- -- -- 1999-00 Vancouver Canucks NHL 66 17 37 54 30 -15 -- -- -- -- -- 2000-01 New York Rangers NHL 82 24 43 67 89 -25 -- -- -- -- -- 2001-02 New York Rangers NHL 41 7 16 23 32 -1 -- -- -- -- -- 2002-03 New York Rangers NHL 78 18 22 40 30 -2 -- -- -- -- -- 2003-04 New York Rangers NHL 76 18 25 43 42 3 -- -- -- -- -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jai604 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Messier came to Vancouver because management at the time threw stupid money at him. It was one of the worst decisions ever. Messier by that time had no drive to win. he had nothing left to prove, and certainly not on a team like Vancouver, which he did not care about. If he actually cared about the team, the fans, and the city, instead of his own self interests and image, he would NOT have taken the C from Linden and INSISTED on taking Wayne Maki's unofficially retired #11. Messier came here to chase the money, and that's it. Doan is a completely different story because he HAS NOT WON A CUP YET. It's quite simple, really, and by watching him play last year you can see that Doaner still has the drive to win. He isn't just chasing the paycheque, or else he would have signed with the stupid East coast team that reportedly offered him $30m over 4 years. In addition, Doan won the Messier Leadership Award last year, so clearly he's still doing something right. Messier vs. Doan is NOT a good argument because there are lots of differences between the two situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclean_is_#1 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I wasn't going to put this much effort into a reply, but your "I'm not an idiot" comment inspired me. "Explain how that doesn't affect a team's salary structure?" Challange accepted. ................ For some reason you dont take the NHL's inherent inflation into consideration when making your statements. Over the last 8 years the salary cap has increases approx. 180% that's about 22.5% PER YEAR. Taking this into consideration, lets re visit your post. "While he may only make 1 mill a season like a 30 point producer should" Please fellow CDC'er tell me you don't actually believe, that a 30 pt producer today will make the exact same as a 30 point producer in 15 years... This is where our conversation ends because your entire premise is flawed. With the way the salary cap is structured, combined with the huge percentage its increases year-to-year; those 7.5 mil cap hits in 12 years aren't going to be as dramatic as they are now. Example - Look at the salary cap in the first year it was introduced; 39 million in 2005 - 2006. A long and at the time high contract like 5.25 million back then is common in the current NHL for players that aren't as skilled as the original player was when the contract was signed. As time progresses and the salary cap rises, players with the long contracts take the risk of being under-payed compared to other players of their stature who are signing UFA contracts that current year. Look at Martin St. Louis, in 2003-2004 he records the highest pts in the NHL at 94. Signs a new contract at the time with Tampa bay at 5.25 million 6 year contract. Then resigns in 2011 - 2012 for more @5.62mil for 5 years! Why more? Is he as productive as he was in 2003 - 2004? No Is he older? yes Is this contract at risk of staying on the books if he retires? (unlikely... but possible) yes... its now a 35+ contract Do you think that if Tampa Bay could, they would go back and sign him to an 11 year, 5.25 million dollar contract? That's Not 35+ That's Less money That possesses no retirement risk Now 5+ million dollar contracts are getting passed around like water. In 12 years these 7.5 mil deals are going to be peanuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neufy161 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 So at your rate, in 12 years, salaries will increase 750%? 12 years ago, the highest played players was Jagr (11.7), Kariya (11), Foresberg (9), Fleury (8.5) and Lindros (8.5). I'm sorry, but that's not the inflation you're talking about. Salary caps go up because of the revenue the NHL makes. There will be a ceiling at one point and it will no way keep going up at your rate. In no universe will a 7.5 cap hit on a 30 point prodcer be considered the norm. St. Louis is NOT a 30 point plus player. He's been a consistent 80+ point player for the past 6 years. EXACTLY the type of player I originally said deserved a cap hit of 6 mill. I didn't challenge you. It's not even a challenge. It's funny how the player you threw out there completely supported my statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 the salary cap is going to start going up much, much more slowly when the players' percentage of revenue goes down significantly in the new cba, and as the league's ability to find new revenue streams starts to reach a point of diminishing returns. i'd expect we'll see a 20-25% salary rollback and a salary cap of $50-57 million when the new cba comes into effect, and it will rise much more slowly than it has over the last 8 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayray2112 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Mobile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djsandwiches Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 My hunch is that we are gunna get a big announcement on BC Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 "Lucky for Brown the linesman got a hold of Doan before he could .......", Yeah I must have slept thru that ``attempt`` to get Brown. Had Doan actually gotten Brown I might have remembered. What happened the rest of the game? Did Doan get him or did the ref keep getting in the middle? If ifs and buts were candys and nuts wouldn`t it be a merry xmas! When I said Doan had 4 fights in the past 3 seasons I meant 4 fights combined in the past 3 seasons not 4 fights per year in case I wasn't clear on that. Shane Doan will not protect the Sedins from anyone. He's not a protector, enforcer, fighter, etc etc . Kevin Bieksa is much much better in that role than Shane Doan ever would be and look how much he deters the `rats`from annoying the Sedins. Do I think MG and Gillman are dumb? Is this your argument for signing Doan? To justify overpaying and giving term to a soon to be 36 year old player you ask me if I think the mgmt is dumb for wanting to sign him? Do you agree with every thing mgmt does? I don't. I agree with most of the things they do but not everything. I'm sure you feal the same way. This is not a legit argument to make on your part. I expect much better from you Miller. I agree with you that it`s unlikely MG offers Doan more than the $6.1 mill the Sedins make but we don`t know that. I only go by the rumours we've all heard that it would take 4 years and close to $7 mill per year. This is why I write $6 to $7 mill. Don`t get me wrong, I would like to have Doan on this team too. But not for 4 years and not for $6+ million per year. UFA`s allways get overpaid. It happens year after year and this situation is no different. Doan will be an effective player for max 2 more years. By the end of that he'll be almost 38 years old. Too old, too much money, not good IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 "Lucky for Brown the linesman got a hold of Doan before he could .......", Yeah I must have slept thru that ``attempt`` to get Brown. Had Doan actually gotten Brown I might have remembered. What happened the rest of the game? Did Doan get him or did the ref keep getting in the middle? If ifs and buts were candys and nuts wouldn`t it be a merry xmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losing With Pride Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Bottom Line... whether it is Doan or not, we need to add a top 6 scorer and a top 4 dman. That and trade Luongo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotiman187 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Bottom Line... whether it is Doan or not, we need to add a top 6 scorer and a top 4 dman. That and trade Luongo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I was around to see Gretz/Messier and company in their glory days with the Oilers so I was definitely around to see Mess with the Canucks. You are confused and actually making my point for me. In this confused state you resort to saying things like "you weren't around, or you didn't watch hockey back then". You say Mess was most dominant physically when he was younger. So what exactly is your argument? Perhaps I should remind you that I'm the one saying Doan is too old to sign to a 4 year $6 per year contract. You are the one who is arguing Doan will be physical when he's 39 years old. I gave you example of Mess being one of the most physical and meanest players of his generation who's age caught up to him like it has caught up to every living being to have ever lived. If Messier, who is one of the most driven, meanest and accomplished players in the history of the NHL couldn't keep his physical play up when he got older what makes you think a player who has never accomplished anything significant in the NHL can? You claim Messier didn't have the drive to win later on in his career. But Doan does. You fail to recognise it was Messier's age not his drive that was the problem when he was with the Canucks. What has Doan shown you to make you believe he is at all driven to win a Stanley Cup. He stayed in PHX because he likes the hot weather when he knew there is next to zero chance of winning. His number one choice is still to stay in PHX where he is unlikely to win a cup. He only wants to stay in PHX because he likes the city and the lifestyle it offers him. It has nothing to do with having drive to win a Cup. To bring up Gordie Howe as an example to say Doan will be a physical player when he's 38 or 39 years old should make it very clear to you how desperate your arguement is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirwilliam Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Wow... you guys sure are spending a lot of time and energy arguing over nit-picky stuff. It's a sunny day outside... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 the salary cap is going to start going up much, much more slowly when the players' percentage of revenue goes down significantly in the new cba, and as the league's ability to find new revenue streams starts to reach a point of diminishing returns. i'd expect we'll see a 20-25% salary rollback and a salary cap of $50-57 million when the new cba comes into effect, and it will rise much more slowly than it has over the last 8 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 ok WHL this is starting to deteriorate. You asked for an example of a guy who could still play physical hockey late into his 30s so I gave you the most obvious one, to which you respond that it's a desperate argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Seriously I believe what Miller says usually and he is right all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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