Whitehouse Visit

[189lb enforcers?]

11 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

It means that you have no right to question the legitimacy of the race issues in the USA by calling them "subjective oppression problems".  There have been many attempts made to fix the problem prior to the anthem protests.  They haven't worked.

Says it all. 

Racism, right here, but I'm not taking a knee. 

[Tystick]

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

It means that you have no right to question the legitimacy of the race issues in the USA by calling them "subjective oppression problems".  There have been many attempts made to fix the problem prior to the anthem protests.  They haven't worked.

Why not? 

Sure, I'm not black, but I'm still objective about what I see.

I say "subjective" because people like to cherry pick their side.

 

Do some cops cross the line and kill innocent people who are black? Yes, and those cops should 100% be prosecuted accordingly. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

But the problem is people start blaming all cops. They're easy to go after; yet the vast majority of them are keeping you and me safe everyday.

 

The other side of this protest that conveniently gets ignored is the actual black on black crime rate.

For this police brutality issue to be solved completely, wouldn't the overall crime rate in the black community need to go down significantly? No one talks about that.

Maybe police officers are more scared then ever and that's why they react the way they do? Not that I'm justifying it. 

Just trying to point out that maybe the crime rate needs to drop first. But no one protesting focuses on that.

[ilduce39]

19 minutes ago, Tystick said:

Why not? 

Sure, I'm not black, but I'm still objective about what I see.

I say "subjective" because people like to cherry pick their side.

 

Do some cops cross the line and kill innocent people who are black? Yes, and those cops should 100% be prosecuted accordingly. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

But the problem is people start blaming all cops. They're easy to go after; yet the vast majority of them are keeping you and me safe everyday.

 

The other side of this protest that conveniently gets ignored is the actual black on black crime rate.

For this police brutality issue to be solved completely, wouldn't the overall crime rate in the black community need to go down significantly? No one talks about that.

Maybe police officers are more scared then ever and that's why they react the way they do? Not that I'm justifying it. 

Just trying to point out that maybe the crime rate needs to drop first. But no one protesting focuses on that.

It gets talked about all the time.  

 

Protective factors for young men/boys of any ethnicity to keep them out of crime/gangs is a huge topic in North America.  Role models, family, community, sports, extra curricular, agency, education, health, nutrition, a belief in social mobility.... 

 

it doesn't get talked about when unarmed, sometimes innocent young people of colour get killed by police because it's irrelevant. 

[ilduce39]

12 hours ago, Heretic said:

It's a "free" country.  

 

If person A has the right to kneel during the national anthem, then person B has the right to stand.

This is true.

 

Too bad President Dotard didn't get the memo.  

[Undrafted]

44 minutes ago, Tystick said:

Okay, and many ex-military don't support the protest. So there's no real point here.

I agree he's using it for his own political gain, but regardless, it has been a tradition to stand up in unity and sing our countries anthem to honor those that died to keep our country free. I was unaware that players didn't stand for the anthem prior to 2009, but regardless they do now, and to now make this about an oppression issue is disrespectful to all those that fought and died for that flag. The anthem is the anthem. It's supposed to be what unites us. Leave it be.

 

First of all, I'm not angry that football players are making more money than me. I don't care. That's the beauty of a capitalistic society. Go get good at something and usually you making a killing if you're great at it.

Yeah I get it, these protests are about racial inequality. That's what's so ridiculous. How do you have it so bad when you have as much opportunity as everyone else in America to build the life you've always wanted? 

Yes, some football players had a tough time growing up in a lower class family, and they also happened to be black. They're not special. People of all skin colors grow up in poor and rich families. Many people grow up poor and are actually far more likely to achieve great things because they don't like their situation and are driven to change it.

 

I'll agree with you on the issue of police officers stopping black people because of their skin color. That appears real and I'm sure annoying for the person.

 

This all said, I still don't agree with these football players politicizing a national anthem. Protest elsewhere, it's pathetic.

Actually, you're wrong about it being "a tradition to stand up in unity and sing our countries anthem to honor those that died to keep our country free"; there is a specific day we do that in Canada and in the US (Remembrance Day here/Veteran's Day in the US).  The anthem and the flag are nothing more than symbols of the country and the values that country represents. 

 

It's only been in recent years, most notably after 9/11, that the anthem/flag has been associated specifically with the military and again, it was done so for political purposes (back then, it was the GWBush administration in an attempt to whip up support for the Iraq War II).

 

What's more, soldiers past and present do not fight for the flag itself.  In WWII, they fought against Nazism, partly in self-defence (that is, so that the world would not be conquered by the Nazis).  In Korea and Vietnam, they fought for both ideological reasons (attempting to stem Communism) but in reality, it was a world power struggle since these were foreign wars.  And of course, the two Iraq wars were all about trying to control oil reserves.  It has nothing to do with flags, anthems or even self-defence of the nation.  Soldiers fight and die because politicians *order* them to and soldiers are bound to follow those orders, whether they agree or not.

 

As stated, the flag and the anthem represent the values of it's country: in the US, that means the freedoms and rights enshrined in the Constitution that applies to ALL citizens.  The US flag and anthem mean NOTHING if those rights and freedoms no longer apply.  And that is why the owners and players united together following 45's comments in Alabama: it is unconscionable for a sitting POTUS to suggest that those exercising one's First Amendment rights should be silenced.

 

I don't know if you're merely ignorant of the facts or being deliberately obtuse, but non-whites (of all colours) are disadvantaged compared to whites--that is a fact of life for all of us who aren't white.  Believe me, I know because I'm not white and I was born/raised long before political correctness was even an idea--I was raised in a time when white racism was open and acceptable. 

 

Being stopped for "driving while black" is more than just annoying.  When cops stop blacks, they don't act like they do when you, a white man, gets pulled over.  If they pull you over, they'll say, "Sir, can I see your driver's licence and registration, please?"  With black people, they say, "Hands where I can see them!" and point guns at them, regardless of whether they've given the police any reason to suspect wrongdoing.

 

In the end, if you really hate the fact that they're protesting in that fashion, that's fine--you have that freedom to do so.  But much of the reasons WHY you dislike it are based on incorrect information and to be quite blunt, you've been manipulated exactly the way 45 wants you to be.  He wants you to hate them; he wants you to think black people are ungrateful, unpatriotic, etc. because he very deliberately wants to divide not just Americans but the whole world along those lines.

[Undrafted]

53 minutes ago, Tystick said:

Do some cops cross the line and kill innocent people who are black? Yes, and those cops should 100% be prosecuted accordingly. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

But the problem is people start blaming all cops. They're easy to go after; yet the vast majority of them are keeping you and me safe everyday.

That's another falsehood.  In fact, one of the direct primary triggers for the protests is the fact that the cops you said that you think "should 100% be prosecuted accordingly" haven't been prosecuted--that was the original point Kaepernick was protesting about, but since then, it's expanded to inequality in general.

 

(Please don't insult me by asking for examples--there are plenty of those on public record, both in the US and here in Canada)

 

[Angry Goose]

 

.

 

[skolozsy2]

1 hour ago, ilduce39 said:

It gets talked about all the time.  

 

Protective factors for young men/boys of any ethnicity to keep them out of crime/gangs is a huge topic in North America.  Role models, family, community, sports, extra curricular, agency, education, health, nutrition, a belief in social mobility.... 

 

it doesn't get talked about when unarmed, sometimes innocent young people of colour get killed by police because it's irrelevant. 

Its not always irrelevant.  I only say that because if a cop is answering a call about shots fired at 2am on the southside of Chicago, then the many, MANY previous crimes committed in that area (including the shooting of police officers on a number of occasions) is probably going to be extremely relevant to the officer responding to the call.

[skolozsy2]

2 hours ago, Undrafted said:

That's another falsehood.  In fact, one of the direct primary triggers for the protests is the fact that the cops you said that you think "should 100% be prosecuted accordingly" haven't been prosecuted--that was the original point Kaepernick was protesting about, but since then, it's expanded to inequality in general.

 

(Please don't insult me by asking for examples--there are plenty of those on public record, both in the US and here in Canada)

 

Wouldn't it be better served if one of the direct primary triggers was being directly protested?  If officers getting off on a charges of police brutality is the concern, why not protest in front of the ruling courthouse or in front of the police station that employs them?  Why make the protest so indirect, because it leaves a lot open to misinterpretation. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

As I've said before, threads like this needs more Hansen Brothers:

 

 

[ilduce39]

5 hours ago, skolozsy2 said:

Its not always irrelevant.  I only say that because if a cop is answering a call about shots fired at 2am on the southside of Chicago, then the many, MANY previous crimes committed in that area (including the shooting of police officers on a number of occasions) is probably going to be extremely relevant to the officer responding to the call.

Sure and I have a ton of appreciation for law enforcement - have family in it.  Super tough situation and job.... but I lose sympathy when unarmed (innocent) men are killed and there is no justice served.  

 

On the other hand you have a young man who doesn't trust police due to personal (or witnessed) abuses or the justice system that hands out harsh penalties under horrible circumstances.  Even without mental health issues like anxiety or depression (or worse) and it's understandable that they may act seemingly uncooperative. 

 

Only one person is employed by the government to uphold the law - not take it into their own hands as judge jury and executioner.

 

For what it's worth I fully support mental health training for officers dealing with the public and any and all PTSD support for their own mental health.  I also don't agree with those who simply shout down police in general as that's unproductive.  Target the bad apples.

[skolozsy2]

34 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Sure and I have a ton of appreciation for law enforcement - have family in it.  Super tough situation and job.... but I lose sympathy when unarmed (innocent) men are killed and there is no justice served.  

 

On the other hand you have a young man who doesn't trust police due to personal (or witnessed) abuses or the justice system that hands out harsh penalties under horrible circumstances.  Even without mental health issues like anxiety or depression (or worse) and it's understandable that they may act seemingly uncooperative. 

 

Only one person is employed by the government to uphold the law - not take it into their own hands as judge jury and executioner.

 

For what it's worth I fully support mental health training for officers dealing with the public and any and all PTSD support for their own mental health.  I also don't agree with those who simply shout down police in general as that's unproductive.  Target the bad apples.

I dont disagree.  In my opinion, i think mistrust on both sides due to previous occurrences is major factor in this escalating issue. 

[johngould21]

8 hours ago, Undrafted said:

Actually, you're wrong about it being "a tradition to stand up in unity and sing our countries anthem to honor those that died to keep our country free"; there is a specific day we do that in Canada and in the US (Remembrance Day here/Veteran's Day in the US).  The anthem and the flag are nothing more than symbols of the country and the values that country represents. 

 

It's only been in recent years, most notably after 9/11, that the anthem/flag has been associated specifically with the military and again, it was done so for political purposes (back then, it was the GWBush administration in an attempt to whip up support for the Iraq War II).

 

What's more, soldiers past and present do not fight for the flag itself.  In WWII, they fought against Nazism, partly in self-defence (that is, so that the world would not be conquered by the Nazis).  In Korea and Vietnam, they fought for both ideological reasons (attempting to stem Communism) but in reality, it was a world power struggle since these were foreign wars.  And of course, the two Iraq wars were all about trying to control oil reserves.  It has nothing to do with flags, anthems or even self-defence of the nation.  Soldiers fight and die because politicians *order* them to and soldiers are bound to follow those orders, whether they agree or not.

 

As stated, the flag and the anthem represent the values of it's country: in the US, that means the freedoms and rights enshrined in the Constitution that applies to ALL citizens.  The US flag and anthem mean NOTHING if those rights and freedoms no longer apply.  And that is why the owners and players united together following 45's comments in Alabama: it is unconscionable for a sitting POTUS to suggest that those exercising one's First Amendment rights should be silenced.

 

I don't know if you're merely ignorant of the facts or being deliberately obtuse, but non-whites (of all colours) are disadvantaged compared to whites--that is a fact of life for all of us who aren't white.  Believe me, I know because I'm not white and I was born/raised long before political correctness was even an idea--I was raised in a time when white racism was open and acceptable. 

 

Being stopped for "driving while black" is more than just annoying.  When cops stop blacks, they don't act like they do when you, a white man, gets pulled over.  If they pull you over, they'll say, "Sir, can I see your driver's licence and registration, please?"  With black people, they say, "Hands where I can see them!" and point guns at them, regardless of whether they've given the police any reason to suspect wrongdoing.

 

In the end, if you really hate the fact that they're protesting in that fashion, that's fine--you have that freedom to do so.  But much of the reasons WHY you dislike it are based on incorrect information and to be quite blunt, you've been manipulated exactly the way 45 wants you to be.  He wants you to hate them; he wants you to think black people are ungrateful, unpatriotic, etc. because he very deliberately wants to divide not just Americans but the whole world along those lines.

45's plan is parallel with Nixon's during the Viet Nam war. His ratings were in the dumpster, he riled up a couple hundred steel workers, who then turned on the protesters of San Jose. Finally his (Nixon's) own party talked sense to him, because they knew they didn't stand a chance in the '70 Congressional elections, so Nixon backed off. With 45, I don't think he will ever do this. He's out for himself, and has figured out that dividing the Country with his base, is how he became President. Why the Penquins chose to go to the WH, is beyond me. Symbolic, my *ss.

[The_Rocket]

People get upset by divisiveness in politics and in society, but then also get mad that the Penguins want to respect the office of the president, irrespective of who the sitting commander and chief is. 

 

If the penguins dont don't go this year when they literally just went last year (and also in 2009 and also in the 90's when HW Bush was in power), then it would be far far more divisive and far more political. Put partisanship aside please. 

[Heretic]

8 hours ago, ilduce39 said:

This is true.

 

Too bad President Dotard didn't get the memo.  

Oh the irony!

 

He's entitled to his opinion as well.

[Tystick]

9 hours ago, ilduce39 said:

It gets talked about all the time.  

 

Protective factors for young men/boys of any ethnicity to keep them out of crime/gangs is a huge topic in North America.  Role models, family, community, sports, extra curricular, agency, education, health, nutrition, a belief in social mobility.... 

 

it doesn't get talked about when unarmed, sometimes innocent young people of colour get killed by police because it's irrelevant. 

Well sure, in general it is a topic. 

In context to these protests though (which is what I meant), it's conveniently forgotten about. Let me explain:

 

The only concern, is the cherry picked stories that the media blows up to perpetuate some mass mistreatment of African American's. Sorry I don't buy it.

Do racist police officers exist? Yes, but they're very much a minority (just like all racists in NA). Show me where these neo nazi's are and I'll help fight them with you.

Do some police officers pull the trigger early out of fear? Yes, that is the fault of the police officer and the citizen deciding not to comply with the officer (because BLM!!1!1!). Many people don't see the police officers side in all of this. This video captures it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g

 

Do most police officers have zero intent to harm African Americans and citizens in general, on the basis of their skin-color? ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY. This "mass racism" that the media keeps blowing up doesn't exist.

 

Once again these rich football players (who have no understanding of what it's like to just "get-by" pay-check to pay-check) can stop disrespecting the unity of the anthem because they're offended by Trump.

They want to protest division, yet, they are the ones dividing the country.

Hilarious.

[Lancaster]

Free speech is always allowed... unless it's go against the narrative that everyone must hate Trump, be anti-Christian, or whatever the latest fad hate the left has going.  

[CeeBee51]

45 minutes ago, Lancaster said:

Free speech is always allowed... unless it's go against the narrative that everyone must hate Trump, be anti-Christian, or whatever the latest fad hate the left has going.  

Are you saying the right don't have fads?

[chon derry]

15 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

11 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Please show me how zillionaire athletes are being oppressed.

 

These folks need something hard in their lives to appreciate what good they already have. 

 

 

 

 

colin kaepernik was born by a single mother and then put up for adoption ,adopted by the kaepernik family , you talk about him as though he has always been a "zillionaire" he like a lot of other people in the world are sick of police brutality, He also realized he had the ability to shed some light on the issue. for me the fact that he has a lot of money isn't relavant ,ive seen past that and tried to understand the message and not pick apart the messanger,     but for a guy that always has the answer for everything ,carry on.......

[johngould21]

3 minutes ago, chon derry said:

colin kaepernik was born by a single mother and then put up for adoption ,adopted by the kaepernik family , you talk about him as though he has always been a "zillionaire" he like a lot of other people in the world are sick of police brutality, He also realized he had the ability to shed some light on the issue. for me the fact that he has a lot of money isn't relavant ,ive seen past that and tried to understand the message and not pick apart the messanger,     but for a guy that always has the answer for everything ,carry on.......

...and you might add, he paid for his protest with his career. I find it ironic that Jerry Jones and many of the other NFL owners are in solidarity with the players now that their brand has been attacked. I wonder why, they somehow didn't stand (kneel) with Kaepernik, last season. Or, they should be asked why he donated to tRumps larger than ever before party this past January.